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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?

Both men had the opportunity to repent and both were given sufficient time in which to do so.  However, the old man chose to do it, all along the way throughout his lifetime.  Why?  Because it was in his heart to do so.

However, we don't know what was in the young man's heart.....but God knows.  God also knows that if the young man was allowed to tarry, if he would have acted upon that desire or not.  Therefore, this young man, according the foreknowledge of God, would be blessed (or not) for that which was in his heart to do, but had not yet acted upon.

 
Originally posted by Bill2702

When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.


When we are judged--- we are judged according to the desires of our heart, our thoughts, and our actions during mortality.  God's judgment never ends....nor can we alter his judgments....for they are eternal.  When we list to obey (or disobey) HIM--- we are blessed (or will suffer) the natural consequences of our own choices.

However, before we leave this mortal life, we do have the ability to alter our actions--- that will cause God's judgment towards us....be for our good (or for our detriment).  We can change the desires of our heart ("to have a change of heart") through the power of the Holy Ghost.  Through this experience, an individual's thoughts and ultimately their actions will automatically change....for they have become "a new creature" and have "put off the natural man."

 
I wasn't aware of any doctrine that states that a person is judged on what he would have done had he lived longer. Where does that come from?
 
Also you state we cannot do anything to alter our fate and then go on to say that is what we can do? Which is it? You can't have both.
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.
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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

Salam, just a quick comment, bill you mentioned that was it right for the young man to die at such a young age as he wanst given the opportunity to repent.... if we read into that it seems a bit tragic, but what about all the small children of this world who dont even make to an age to speak, never mind learn the meaning of the word repent. God has a plan for us all and when you die in a car crash at age 2 or live to be 93,with no major heath problems, and you ask why?? this is God's will, What about those parents' sitting in a wing of sick kids' hospital right now as im typing this and watching their precious child get eaten away by cancer...is that fair??no.. did this child at age 3 do something so unforgivable that they deserve to be in such a predicament??? the examples are endless but this again is just my thought process into this question. Inshalla....
 
I didn't say it was right for him to die. My own personal view is that there is no right or wrong to it because to do so is to admit that God is cruel. If cruelty is a part of God's nature then he is not worthy of worship.
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.
 
 
why u think that he would repent if he lived longer , maybe if he was going to repent Allah would gave him longer chance ?
 
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.
 
 
why u think that he would repent if he lived longer , maybe if he was going to repent Allah would gave him longer chance ?
 
 
He might have. With free will God offers that chance to redeem for the past. The 90 year old did.
 
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.
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khany  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote khany Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:57pm
bill,

if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.
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bcgirl  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 3:30pm
Salam, firstly to bill, i didnt at any point say that you said it was right for him to die, perhaps you didnt understand what  i wrote, all i said is that everything that happens good and bad is God's will. whether we agree or disagree or think it is cruel or think it is just. Remember, God tests us constantly and satan could not exisit if God did not want him to exist. and to say that God is cruel and if this is part of His nature, than he is not worthy of worship. AGAIN....... everything put before us is a test, which path will we take??? the straight moral path of God, or the sinful and knowingly wrong path of satan?? There is good and bad in this life for a reason, we may not like it, but we have to deal with it. It is all in His plan, and his will for us.....
 
and to khany....i liked your comment saying everybody has their respective test and are judged accordingly. YES, YES!!! this is what im talking about...
 
His power is too infinate for the human mind to comprehend and it is this way for a reason, we are his creation, we are not put on this earth to have complete knowledge of his inner workings, if we did, we would be comparable to Him now then wouldnt we??? and that is the farthest from impossible to even think about. Inshalla
Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...
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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by khany

bill,

if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.
 
I don't fear he is unjust. I believe he doesn't care so justice is not the issue. For one who can do whatever he wants with impunity every whim is justice.
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

I wasn't aware of any doctrine that states that a person is judged on what he would have done had he lived longer. Where does that come from?
 
I am giving an example of what it would mean to balance the "desires of the heart," one's "thoughts"and one's "actions."  For all three are separate issues to be taken into account....in the final outcome.  One's action is only part of the puzzle.
 
  
Originally posted by Bill2702

Also you state we cannot do anything to alter our fate and then go on to say that is what we can do? Which is it? You can't have both.
 
I said that we can't alter God's judgment....but we can alter our choices.  The choices that we make have the consequences already attached to them.  Those judgments.....are already set.
 
Doctrine & Covenants 130:20
20  There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated--
21  And then we obtain any blessings from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
 
 
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by khany

bill, if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.
 
Originally posted by Bill2702

I don't fear he is unjust. I believe he doesn't care so justice is not the issue. For one who can do whatever he wants with impunity every whim is justice.
 
Our idea of what is just....isn't necessarily what perfect justice is. 
 
I know that God does care....otherwise he wouldn't have sent his Son. 
 
The Law Giver himself....follows higher laws than he expects us to.  If he could not even follow the lesser laws himself....then he would not be an exalted perfect being. 
 
If the Law Giver did not follow his own laws, he could not be "All knowing" for he would have to amend the laws to excluse his errors...not realizing beforehand....the situtations that might arise.
 
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khany  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote khany Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 7:04pm
I don't fear he is unjust. I believe he doesn't care so justice is not the issue. For one who can do whatever he wants with impunity every whim is justice.


and you think he doesn't care because ...?
you believe god is whimsical he creates in vain?
(023:115)
"Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?"

describing the people of understanding the quran says:
(003:191)
Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

(038:027)
Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!

or do you feel that  there are more important things for god to worry about... god would rather spend time worrying about more significant issues?

(002:255)
No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.

(004:040)
Allah is never unjust in the least degree: If there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward.

(099:007-008)
Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.


these are anthropological extensions of human limitation to god. none of us believe in this god whom you describe. we believe in a god who is merciful and just and who is fully capable implementing this justice.
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.
 
 
why u think that he would repent if he lived longer , maybe if he was going to repent Allah would gave him longer chance ?
 
 
He might have. With free will God offers that chance to redeem for the past. The 90 year old did.
 
 
some one may repent after 90 years and another one may not repent even if he lived 1000 years
 
It has nothing to do with how u much u lived ...
 
Sometimes, Allah let bad people live longer in this life and enjoy it well so they took all the reward of their good action in this life but they will get nothing in the hereafter.
 
 
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by khany

bill,

if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.
How is it that you manage to answer a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer and not be aware of it at all.
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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khany  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote khany Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:34am
How is it that you manage to answer a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer and not be aware of it at all.


scruggnut,

my apologies i was probably not clear enough. i was trying to demonstrate the futility of bill's original argument by showing that if his hypothesis could be true then so could mine. we have no knowledge about
"what might have happened if .... "

while man has no knowledge of events that might have happened, god is well aware of all permutations of events. in fact, god knows precisely how each one of us are going to act in this world. out of his justice, he gives us life so that none of us may complain that we are being judged for something we have not done.

about those who deny the signs of allah, allah says:
(006:025)
Even if they were to witness every sign, they would still not believe in it so much so that when they come to you, they dispute with you, those who disbelieve contend: 'This is nothing but fables of the ancient times.'

and furthermore:
(006:027-028)
If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with the Fire! They will say: "Would that we were but sent back! Then would we not reject the signs of our Lord, but would be amongst those who believe!"
Yea, in their own (eyes) will become manifest what before they concealed. But if they were returned, they would certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden, for they are indeed liars.


allahu alam (god knows best).

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