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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Well, you're the one who said age 8.  And honestly, I believe all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin.  Even when I was Christian, I could not understand how people believed babies were sinful.
 
Yes I did.  Of course all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin....for they don't have the ability to sin.  (I'm not a "Original Sin" theory advocate).
 
In order to sin....a person has to have "knowledge between good and evil" just like Adam and Eve had after they partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
 
After an individual is born......there comes a time that individual becomes acountable for their actions.  I was stating that time doesn't come until after the age of 8 depending on the maturity of the individual.
 
 
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by khany

hello Bill,

like brother Hamayoun said god is just. and he does not do the least injustice to anybody. the quran says:
(017:015)
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).

nobody is punished for what is beyond their knowledge or ability. we are only judged for things in which we have a choice. it does not matter how many years one lives. it is not a simple calculus. god knows best who have been warned. it is sufficient for us (muslims) to know that god is just.
(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.
 
I agree.......very well put!
 
 
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by yishmael

blah...blah.....blah....Hope this helps...Yishmael
 
No thank you
 
 
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

So on that basis the 27 year old will be forgiven because he was not responsible for his own upbringing?
 
Some believe that when we get to the Judgment Bar, all the bad choices will be weighed against all the good choices, and if the good out-weigh the bad----they are then issued into heaven (thus forgiven).
 
My understanding....is that this is not really what will happen.
 
How I see it....is that our life will be reviewed and we will learn by observing what our choices were and how they affected ourselves/others vs. what could have been a better choice for all. 
 
However, I believe what we will be judged for......is the condition of our heart.  For the intentions that caused us to do what we did or did not do.  What our true motives were behind our actions.
 
The focus would be more on what was in our heart.....that caused us to think the thoughts and then choose the actions.  Thoughts and actions are really bi-products that orignate from the beliefs that we hold in our heart.  If a person's desire (in his heart) is to please God.....but their actions seem to show otherwise.....a lack of knowledge and understanding may be the problem (instead of rebellion against God).
 
This is why God is the most supreme Judge of All.  For he knows what is written in our hearts...he knows WHY we do what we do.  The WHY's will all be taken into account in that final judgment.
 
So our KNOWLEDGE between good and evil is essential in the final outcome.  However it goes deeper than this for we are aware of our conscious motives.....but not our unconscious motives.  Many times, we are compelled to do things out of fear of not being good enough or loved enough---all the problems that were caused by our relationships and the environments that we grew up in.....will not be over-looked.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Good question.  On this basis, everyone should go to Heaven.  People who believe and have faith, believe and have faith.  This alone should be enough for people to be forgiven, people believe with their heart and soul, or don't believe at all and that's their own belief...  how can people be held accountable for their upbringing, environment, being brought up in the wrong faith, or their lack of beliefs?  Doesn't seem fair.  


That's a sentiment that both ibn-Rushd and his contemporary Moses Maimonides approached from the Muslim and Jewish angles.

In Jewish tradition, people who couldn't bring themselves to a literal belief in G-d were called "apikoros" (epicureans) and were condemned. Ibn-Rushd seemed to hold out hope that G-d created guys like us for his own purposes, and simply urged people of faith and practical atheists not to fight with one another, as he envisioned a G-d who was big enough to be approached in more than one way.

Many Christians have evolved similar ideas on their own. The local rector of the Episcopal church is a fan of the "universal salvation" idea. Hell, if it exists, is temporary, and in the end we're all going to be saved (whether we like it or not).
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

So on that basis the 27 year old will be forgiven because he was not responsible for his own upbringing?
 
Another point....
 
We are always responsible for our own choices, we can't shift the blame of what we do upon another person.  (We may think....that what we did was someone else's fault.....but we are responsible for the actions that we committ....no matter what others did to provoke us).  This is what Agency is all about....the freedom to choose---and every choice has a consequence. 
 
The consequences that we may suffer--fall under two categories:
(1) temporal consequences The Suffering we experience here in mortality, which was caused by our own choices and the choices of others that were inflicted upon us.
(2) Eternal consequences  The Suffering that will happen in immortality after earthlife is over.  This suffering is a result of willful disobedience that has not been repented of.  
 
In order to commit willful disobedience....a person has to KNOW what they are choosing....and make a conscious decision to do it.  Satan can entice us (tempt us) to commit that action....but it is ultimately our choice whether we do it nor not.  It is not given to Satan to tempt little children....for little children cannot sin.  Their eyes have not been opened in order to know the difference between good and evil.  It is the parents responsibility to teach them to choose the good and shun the "bad."  But they don't know what 'evil' is.....yet.
 
When a child has not reached the "years of accountablity" (birth to 8 years)....they are not ACCOUNTABLE to God when they don't "choose the right" (and break God's laws).  If the child breaks the laws of God during that time period because their parents have not taught them.....to choose the good and shun the bad......the parents will have to ACCOUNT to God for their children's behavior (eternal consequences the parents are responsible for).  For it is the parents responsibility to teach the children these things and if the parents do not....the sin is placed upon the parents' head. 
 
[A prime example of this is....... The story about Eli the High Priest and his sons recorded in the Old Testament.  Eli had not taught his sons in their tender years like he ought to have done....he was busy doing his priestly call.  As these sons grew, they continued to do bad things as young men and into their adulthood.
 
Eli was told by God to correct his adult sons----who were doing all sorts of evil in the name of the Church.  Their conduct caused great suffering to believers and kept others from coming to the truth themselves.
 
However, Eli refused to correct his sons....therefore the greater sin was placed upon his own head.  Eli then suffered for that choice both in this life....in loosing his sons as well as eternally loosing his sons in the next life.  Eli's disobedience towards God in not fufilling his parental responsibilities would become a great issue.  Then the responsibility he had in enabling his sons in their sins (which was a great stumbling block to others in and outside of the church) would also become an issue, because he would have to account for that in his own final judgment.]
 
Over and beyond the year of accountability....the child is now ACCOUNTABLE to keep God's commandments (to do what the child/adult feels is right based on his own understanding and the teachings of parents and leaders).  If the child has been taught what the commandments are, had parents that were good examples, and who mentored the child to do the same....that child will have greater power in choosing the good in their life as well as a greater responsibility in doing what they know to be right (whatever that is).
 
If we break the laws of God we receive the natural consequence for it.  These consequences may result in this life only and not in the next---based upon our KNOWLEDGE of what is right and wrong and also if we have repented for this action as we were in mortality.  A person can suffer in this life (because of lack of knowledge) and yet not suffer in the next--based on the righteous condition of their heart. 
 
In other words, when we do what we believe is right....we will be rewarded for it in the next life (the intentions of our heart was to choose the good).
 
If we do what we believe is wrong.....we will be judged for it in the next life (the intentions of our heart was to choose the evil).
 
Now the question is....What does God really determine is good and evil?  These things are recorded in the scriptures.  If we don't know, have not been taught, have different beliefs....we are still responsible for finding these things out.  When we do not keep these commandments, we will suffer the natural result of breaking these commandments in this life.  However, we may or may not be held accountable for these things in the next life.  (For we have to understand what is right and wrong in order to be held accountable for that knowledge at the Final Judgment).
 
REPENTANCE:  Changing from a sinful state to a "blameless" state.  A person may or may not be forgiven as they go through the repentance process.....this is God's judgment.  As we are truly sorry for what we have done, we will feel "godly sorrow" which leads us to want to repent.  We know that in order for God to forgive us we also need for forgive others.  Being grateful is also a sign a person is on the right path. 
 
 
When a person has worked all the way through the repentance process and their sins are forgiven....they can know this.....because the guilt is not there anymore.  In other words they will be aware that their sins were "remitted."  To receive a remittance of sin causes a person's guilt to be swept away.  
 
Many times, people have not totally worked through the whole process.... and the guilt is still there.  This may be caused because:
 
(1) We aren' t finished with the process yet, something is left undone. 
(2) Or that we have to forgive our self for what was done and have enough faith in God that he will forgive us. 
(3)  We haven't forgiven others their offenses to us yet. 
(4)  Some have a problem forgiving themself because they feel that they don't deserve to be forgiven. 
(5)  First we need to make restitution for our actions and set things straight.
(6)  We may need the counsel of our paster/minister/rabbi/bishop to help us.
(7)  We need the help of a mental health practioner. 
(8) For those who are Christians---having faith in the Atonement of Christ is central for us to believe that repentance is possible and this faith can also give us the strength to forgive our self.
 
When we are forgiven, God does not remember (hold accountable) that person for that action any more.  But he allows us to remember....so that we won't commit that offense again.  This knowledge is important....because we learn through trials and errors.  We have learned a valueable lesson that we can draw upon for future reference. 
 
After we have repented of these things---many of the consequences in this life still continue...however...in the next life we will not suffer the eternal consequences associated with that action.
 
 
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Sqaruesi
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sqaruesi Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Well, you're the one who said age 8.  And honestly, I believe all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin.  Even when I was Christian, I could not understand how people believed babies were sinful.
 
I don't understand your former difficulty.  No one has to teach a young child to be wayward in umpteen different ways, well before any "age of conscience" we might specify.
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Jesus (John 5:43)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 9:55pm
Me?  I was responding to someone else.  What do you mean my 'former difficulty'?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 8:16pm
Little children need to be taught the difference between the right way  and the wrong way. 

Things like.....love instead of bite. 
Mommy can't read you a story if all the pages are ripped out of the book.
It's not safe to run into the street--hold Mommy's hand. 
Show us how nice you can be while we are gone.

However, little children don't have the ability to commit evil....for they don't have the mentality to know what evil is...in order to choose it. 

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 8:20pm
Right from wrong has nothing to do with being sinful or not.  It's not a sin to run around in the street-it is an innocent act because the child does not know of the danger.  It's not sinful to rip the pages from a book-the child may like the way it sounds when it tears, and does not know this is property.  Biting is usually a defensive action, and it's certainly not sinful to defend yourself or your property (toys). 

Doing the things you mentioned has nothing to do with sin, or being sinful.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Right from wrong has nothing to do with being sinful or not.  It's not a sin to run around in the street-it is an innocent act because the child does not know of the danger.  It's not sinful to rip the pages from a book-the child may like the way it sounds when it tears, and does not know this is property.  Biting is usually a defensive action, and it's certainly not sinful to defend yourself or your property (toys). 

Doing the things you mentioned has nothing to do with sin, or being sinful.


Exactly and that is my point..... 
Little children are not capable
of choosing evil or committing sin.




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:10pm
So you do not believe children are born into sin, as many/most other Christians do?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

So you do not believe children are born into sin, as many/most other Christians do?



No.  I do not believe in the "Original Sin" theory.


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 11:27am

Wether they were Muslims ?

If yes then it doesn't matter how long they lived ...life is exams that is going to end in any  minutes..WE ARE TOLD THAT IT WILL END IN ANY MINUTES ...everyone get tested in his life and took a lot of chances to get back to God, God gave him a lot of signs and warning also he has gave him brain to think !
 
deeds by how it end ... a person can live all his life a kaffir and repent before he die and get into pradise and vice versa.
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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