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bcgirl  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:48pm
Salam to everyone, i just noticed this topic so thought i would add my thought....i want to mention though firstly when janet waters responded and said a comment to the effect of an 8yr old not being at an accountable age, but at 27 to put in simple terms he is responsible for his own actions and certainly knows right from wrong at that age. and rachel25 responded that her 8 and 9yrs would burn in hell if they didint worship him correctly... that is a justisfiable answer  but what i read.....is that janet was actually saying that at age 8  before the accountable age(at this point it was the parents' to blame) and at age 27 was at the accountable age....may i just say that you can put a simple sentence on a piece of paper and 2 diff pp read it and they will give you 2 diff meanings as to what is written and what that meaning means to them from their personal perspective...i think there was a misunderstanding here, but maybe i'm wrong!! thats just what i read and what my interpretation was.... (i anylize things i read that are of interest to me so pardon for the novel) 
Now, Bill as far as these 2 individuals having the same upbringing and one sadly deprting at such a young age, unless we know all the facts how can we make such an informed decision to say well, he didint deserve to die at age 27 and he didnt deserve to live to be 90.
 
I beleive that God has a plan for us all as well as a contracted  time limit  of a physical being on this earth. when our time is up, its game over, and yes we all have had pp in our lives to go at young ages and what seemed to us an undeserving way to go, but we have to accept this,your question at first read seemed so profound but when i read a few of the comments and really thought about it myself, its left me a loss of words for a few reasons...was it your contention to have such little info to make an informed comment or were you wanting others to make up their own scenarios and stories as to what this persons' upbringing really was like an fill in our own blanks....  
Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

Wether they were Muslims ?

If yes then it doesn't matter how long they lived ...life is exams that is going to end in any  minutes..WE ARE TOLD THAT IT WILL END IN ANY MINUTES ...everyone get tested in his life and took a lot of chances to get back to God, God gave him a lot of signs and warning also he has gave him brain to think !
 
deeds by how it end ... a person can live all his life a kaffir and repent before he die and get into pradise and vice versa.


Well I don't believe in deathbed repentance.  For repentance is the process of changing one's very nature. 

If a person waits until they have lived the type of life that they chose to life-----and think that all they have to do is say they're sorry right before death.....they are sadly mistaken.  They think that they can have their cake, eat it, and not pay for it. 

In other words they want to choose their actions and avoid the natural consequences for those actions.  The purpose of repentance is not about being saved in our sins.....but about being saved from them.  A person has to be truly sorry for what was done enough to make restitution for it and right those wrongs......instead of refusing responsibility for their actions!!




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 1:22pm
Hey BCG.
 
You thought about it for yourself. Mission accomplished.
 
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by mai moslemah

Wether they were Muslims ?

If yes then it doesn't matter how long they lived ...life is exams that is going to end in any  minutes..WE ARE TOLD THAT IT WILL END IN ANY MINUTES ...everyone get tested in his life and took a lot of chances to get back to God, God gave him a lot of signs and warning also he has gave him brain to think !
 
deeds by how it end ... a person can live all his life a kaffir and repent before he die and get into pradise and vice versa.


Well I don't believe in deathbed repentance.  For repentance is the process of changing one's very nature. 

If a person waits until they have lived the type of life that they chose to life-----and think that all they have to do is say they're sorry right before death.....they are sadly mistaken.  They think that they can have their cake, eat it, and not pay for it. 

In other words they want to choose their actions and avoid the natural consequences for those actions.  The purpose of repentance is not about being saved in our sins.....but about being saved from them.  A person has to be truly sorry for what was done enough to make restitution for it and right those wrongs......instead of refusing responsibility for their actions!!




 
 
I dont believe in deathbed repentence either...it is not allowed in Islam ... this is not what i meant ...what i meant is a person can live 70 years disbelieving in God then accept Islam and lived his life tell death a Muslim .He will be from people of paradise ...life is an exams and its result depend on the way u end it
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

i want to mention though firstly when janet waters responded and said a comment to the effect of an 8yr old not being at an accountable age, but at 27 to put in simple terms he is responsible for his own actions and certainly knows right from wrong at that age.


Yes....

0-8 years old
The parents/guardians/care givers are held accountable to God for the actions of the children they are caring for.  They are also held responsible for what they taught the child concerning what is right and what is wrong.

8+ years old
As the child grows up, they become accountable to God for their own actions.  However, their knowledge and understanding is based upon the experiences that they have had growing up.  The teachings of life and the teachings of parents and leaders will have a great influence on their choices.....these beliefs will be taken into consideration by God in the final judgment. 

If it was the person's intention was to choose the right (but they didn't know what the right was).....then it will be accounted to them as choosing  righteousness. 

If it was the person's intention to choose the evil.....then it will be accounted to them as choosing the evil.

Our intentions rise from the beliefs and teachings that we hold in our heart.  Our thoughts and actions are derived from what is in our heart.  Many times people's intentions are to do good, however, in reality they are not "doing the good" because they lack the correct education and teaching from their childhood.




Originally posted by bcgirl

and rachel25 responded that her 8 and 9yrs would burn in hell if they didint worship him correctly... that is a justisfiable answer


I'm not sure exactly what rachel was stating.  However according to your interpretation of her remarks.....this would be a harsh belief to have.  If I had this belief and loved my children.....I would respond harshly to my children when they weren't doing "everything" right.  But that is not the way to accomplish the good in life....but in actuality fear is not a good motivator.  Fear and faith cannot be present at the same time.  Eventually those children will resent church and might choose to totally reject anything the church teaches and fall away into forbidden paths.  That of course is not what we want to provoke our children into doing.



Originally posted by bcgirl

but what i read.....is that janet was actually saying that at age 8  before the accountable age(at this point it was the parents' to blame) and at age 27 was at the accountable age....


Yes 0-8 the parents are accountable for child's actions, however, beyond this time, the individual becomes accountable for his/her own actions.  If that person eventually does things that are wrong----but don't understand what they are doing is wrong (based on lack of education) that will be taken into account in the final judgment.  God knows the intentions of our hearts he knows WHY we did what we did.  I believe that the final judgment will also be a time to reflect about the type of life we lived and learn from our successes as well as our mistakes.



Originally posted by bcgirl

Now, Bill as far as these 2 individuals having the same upbringing and one sadly deprting at such a young age, unless we know all the facts how can we make such an informed decision to say well, he didint deserve to die at age 27 and he didnt deserve to live to be 90.


I guess I missed that part, was Bill trying to understand why one person lived longer than another?  I don't believe that it is about people deserving to die.  This life is testing period...which is for the purpose of learning and growth...we learn both through trial and error.

 
Originally posted by bcgirl

I beleive that God has a plan for us all as well as a contracted  time limit  of a physical being on this earth. when our time is up, its game over, and yes we all have had pp in our lives to go at young ages and what seemed to us an undeserving way to go, but we have to accept this,your question at first read seemed so profound but when i read a few of the comments and really thought about it myself, its left me a loss of words for a few reasons...was it your contention to have such little info to make an informed comment or were you wanting others to make up their own scenarios and stories as to what this persons' upbringing really was like an fill in our own blanks....  


I also believe that God has a plan for us.  He sent us here to fulfill a specific mission and develop and learn certain things....thus incorporating these things into our character.  I know that God knows the time in which all these things will occur, however, I do not believe in predestination.  Instead, I believe in foreordination, we are foreordained to accomplish and learn specific things, however, it is our choice if we follow that plan or not.

When we get off the plan, I know that God sends sufficient help for us to get on the right track, and may even allow us more time as he sees fit.  I also know that the poor judgments we make can cause our life span to be shortened early too. 

For instance how we take care of our mind, our body, and the type of risks we take with our life may end it prematurely.  The poor judgments of others may also affect our life, ending it prematurely as well.  However, there are times, in which God will send heavenly (or earthly) help to stop and/or reduce these effects.

However, I know that God will not force any man into heaven.  The Highest Heaven is reserved for those who choose God's will over their own.  I know that we will be blessed to inherit our rightful inheritance within the Kingdom of heaven or else receive our rightful punishment, based upon the condition of our heart, our thoughts, and our actions.


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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

I dont believe in deathbed repentence either...it is not allowed in Islam ... this is not what i meant ...what i meant is a person can live 70 years disbelieving in God then accept Islam and lived his life tell death a Muslim .He will be from people of paradise ...life is an exams and its result depend on the way u end it.


To us it is not a matter if it is allowed.....it is a matter if God accepts it from the individual (generally speaking I would say that he does not).

I agree with you to a point. When the time of death occurs, the important thing is that we are moving forward and not backward.   It is about living what we know to be right.....to be living up to our conscience.

The end is important....but the means to the end is also important.

An individual who has not been successful in choosing the right for the first 70 years of their life.....has missed out on the process of forging their character through making righteous choices.  One who has remained faithful for a lifetime and has endured unto the end....well be better off in the next life.  For our knowledge and experiences that we gain in this life will rise with us in the resurrection.

I state this point, to make another point........

Inheriting a place in the Kingdom of Heaven is but a start.  But there are many rewards for the faithful.  Some believe that a person either inherits heaven or hell.  We don't teach this.....we know that there are many mansions in heaven and there are many rewards/treasures that await us.  There are three orders of heaven and one inherits their rightful place.

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:

1)  Celestial Order: [ETERNAL LIFE]
Those who inherit this, are they who overcame the flesh and endured to the end, they will live in the presence of God.

2)  Terrestrial Order: [Paradise]
Those who inherit this, are all the good people of the earth who tried to live the commandments, but weren't as loyal in living or defending the truth.

3)  Telestial Order:  [REST IN PEACE]
Those who didn't try to live the commandments and who had to suffer for their own sins, but were eventually redeemed from hell.  They are they who rest from mortal cares.

Then of course those who didn't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven.....but were consigned to Outer Darkness (Hell) as their eternal punishment.  They are the sons and daughters of Perdition and He then claims them as his own.



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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:17am
For those who might be curious about all this, I'll suggest that Janet Waters is now entering into post-Mormon theology here. I'm not familiar with any authorized teaching of the LDS church which goes so far as she has.

Originally posted by Janet Waters


3)  Telestial Order:  [REST IN PEACE]
Those who didn't try to live the commandments and who had to suffer for their own sins, but were eventually redeemed from hell.  They are they who rest from mortal cares.

Then of course those who didn't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven.....but were consigned to Outer Darkness (Hell) as their eternal punishment.  They are the sons and daughters of Perdition and He then claims them as his own.



Does the church know that you're innovating doctrines and passing them off as legitimate, Janet? If you can back this new doctrine up with references, I'd love to see it. Otherwise it's safe to assume that you've simply come to a lot of personal conclusions on your own which don't exactly reconcile themselves with the teachings of the church.

Best,

Yishmael
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:25am
Originally posted by Bill2702

A young man dies at age 27. His upbringing lacked even the most basic of the moral values of the average of society's norm. That is the fault of his family and those generally close to him.

We now know that these influences are key to the person we become.
 
Another man in the same situation regarding his upbringing lives to 90 and over that time changes gradually to become aware and repentent for his deeds.

 

How is time measured in terms of it's effect on the mercy of God?


Okay, I see here the two examples....based on limited info about the two we can only assume what was in their hearts, minds, and how they lived their lives.

I believe in the two examples above, God's mercy is not measured by time.  Time has nothing to do with God's mercy.   It is the individual state of an person's heart....that causes God to extend additional mercy to us or not.  God knows what state the first individual would be, if he was allowed to live a longer life.  But basically, our what is in our heart is caused to be there from the very beginning of life and added upon as we age.

From the first incident, this person has transgressed the laws of God.  In other words, this person has broken the laws that God set up, and for the most part, he has done this in ignorance.  Ignorance is not an excuse....for we are commanded to see knowledge and he has not [sin of omission].  However, this individual will be judged upon what he knew to be right and if he was true to that knowledge.  Many of the things this person suffered, was caused by his own lack of information, however, in the next life this individual will rest from these mortal cares and may even inherit paradise.

The second incident, this person has transgressed and committed sins, however, he was aware of what he did and worked at repenting of those things throughout his life.  God's mercy comes about because this person repented of these things and because he did this, he allowed God to have a hand in guiding his life for the better.  So therefore, not only will he be blessed in the next life, but he was blessed here.  This person will inherit paradise or based on the condition of his heart, he may inherit Eternal Life (which is the greatest gift God has to offer the faithful).




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

 
Now, Bill as far as these 2 individuals having the same upbringing and one sadly deprting at such a young age, unless we know all the facts how can we make such an informed decision to say well, he didint deserve to die at age 27 and he didnt deserve to live to be 90.
 
I beleive that God has a plan for us all as well as a contracted  time limit  of a physical being on this earth. when our time is up, its game over, and yes we all have had pp in our lives to go at young ages and what seemed to us an undeserving way to go, but we have to accept this,your question at first read seemed so profound but when i read a few of the comments and really thought about it myself, its left me a loss of words for a few reasons...was it your contention to have such little info to make an informed comment or were you wanting others to make up their own scenarios and stories as to what this persons' upbringing really was like an fill in our own blanks....  
 
 
Hi BCG,
 
I kept it vague so that people would think about the potential parameters involved in evaluating such a judgment.
 
Imagine if I had asked about the two people seperately. Chances are the 27 year old would get a high vote for "dammed". Conversely the 90 year old would get a thumbs up. By comparing the two questions arise as to the process of just judgment.
 
Personally I don't think anyone deserves to die. But we all do anyway.
 
 
 
 
 
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 2:53pm
It is not by the years they lived but by the their deeds in these years
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 3:04pm
It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?


Both men had the opportunity to repent and both were given sufficient time in which to do so.  However, the old man chose to do it, all along the way throughout his lifetime.  Why?  Because it was in his heart to do so.

However, we don't know what was in the young man's heart.....but God knows.  God also knows that if the young man was allowed to tarry, if he would have acted upon that desire or not.  Therefore, this young man, according the foreknowledge of God, would be blessed (or not) for that which was in his heart to do, but had not yet acted upon.

 
Originally posted by Bill2702

When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.


When we are judged--- we are judged according to the desires of our heart, our thoughts, and our actions during mortality.  God's judgment never ends....nor can we alter his judgments....for they are eternal.  When we list to obey (or disobey) HIM--- we are blessed (or will suffer) the natural consequences of our own choices.

However, before we leave this mortal life, we do have the ability to alter our actions--- that will cause God's judgment towards us....be for our good (or for our detriment).  We can change the desires of our heart ("to have a change of heart") through the power of the Holy Ghost.  Through this experience, an individual's thoughts and ultimately their actions will automatically change....for they have become "a new creature" and have "put off the natural man."










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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2008 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by yishmael

For those who might be curious about all this, I'll suggest that Janet Waters is now entering into post-Mormon theology here. I'm not familiar with any authorized teaching of the LDS church which goes so far as she has. Does the church know that you're innovating doctrines and passing them off as legitimate, Janet? If you can back this new doctrine up with references, I'd love to see it. Otherwise it's safe to assume that you've simply come to a lot of personal conclusions on your own which don't exactly reconcile themselves with the teachings of the church.  Best, Yishmael



I guess you think that if you don't know something or understand it....it must not exist.  I realize that you gain your self-esteem in knowing more about everything than everyone else...hense the need to be the authority in telling each person on this site what they and their religion believe.  Haven't you noticed many correcting you as the "authority" on the matter of what they believe?

You certainly know about everything that is "illegitimate" Mormon doctrine--- however that does not mean that you do know about what is legitimate.  True seekers of knowledge come to the conclusion.... the more they learn....the more they realize they don't know.

My time is precious, I am not going to waste it helping you to see all the things you don't know or understand for that matter.  When you do your "scripture study" look about proving something valuable instead of looking to prove against it.

Your pride in being so called "learned" coupled with a big doze of pessimism (which causes your lack of faith in everything and everyone) ....is the big reason you do not interpret the world as it is....but the way YOU are.

I'm sorry that you can't see your reflection....in my posts.  However, I see it as complimentary....so thank you for that.  If you want someone who is there to support you and your outlook on life.....talk to a mirror.







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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:08pm
Salam, just a quick comment, bill you mentioned that was it right for the young man to die at such a young age as he wanst given the opportunity to repent.... if we read into that it seems a bit tragic, but what about all the small children of this world who dont even make to an age to speak, never mind learn the meaning of the word repent. God has a plan for us all and when you die in a car crash at age 2 or live to be 93,with no major heath problems, and you ask why?? this is God's will, What about those parents' sitting in a wing of sick kids' hospital right now as im typing this and watching their precious child get eaten away by cancer...is that fair??no.. did this child at age 3 do something so unforgivable that they deserve to be in such a predicament??? the examples are endless but this again is just my thought process into this question. Inshalla....
Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...
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