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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2008 at 4:47pm
There are over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many people attend the greenside mosque?

Have you not been in the presence of a pastor saying something you did not agree with?

Must we all be forced to explain the views of individual imams?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2008 at 4:48pm
An excellent book to understand The Qur'an was written by Dr. Muhammad Abdel Haleem, Professor at SOAS (School of Oriental and African Studies - London)
 
"Towards Understanding The Qur'an: Themes and Style".
 
Topics include:
 
1- Marriage and Divorce (in Islam)
2- War and Peace in the Qur'an
3- Tolerance in Islam
4- Life and Beyond
5- Paradise in the Qur'an
6- Adam and Eve in the Qur'an and the Bible
7- Dynamic Style (of The Qur'an).

The paperback edition was published in 2001 by I.B. Tauris & Co. Ltd

 
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2008 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by waheed1

There are over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many people attend the greenside mosque?

Have you not been in the presence of a pastor saying something you did not agree with?

Must we all be forced to explain the views of individual imams?
I am quite sure that there are many people who were in the presence of their pastors giving their sunday diatribe when some personal view or interpretation of scripture voiced by the priest differed with the ideology or belief of the listener, without any confrontation forthcoming on the behalf of the party which disagreed.  In some cases, i am sure that said diatribe could, on some occasions, be considered hateful, or even discriminatory by someone else.
Most people would voice their displeasure over what was said in their own homes, or while in the company of like minded people.
 


Edited by scruggnut - 18 May 2008 at 5:21pm
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 11:25am
 
Originally posted by waheed1

There are over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many people attend the greenside mosque?

Have you not been in the presence of a pastor saying something you did not agree with?

Must we all be forced to explain the views of individual imams?
 
 
 Again... its clearly obvious you haven't watched the video...
  The video focused specifically on hardline Islam being preached in England. Which Amy denied was a reality. The programme was making the point that NO LONGER is Islamic militantism ONLY prevalent in some islamic countries, but is now being exported to many western democratic states and how much apparent lip-service is being paid to it by those generally regarded as Moderate Islamic representatives.
 
 
 
Originally posted by scruggnut

Originally posted by waheed1

There are over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many people attend the greenside mosque?

Have you not been in the presence of a pastor saying something you did not agree with?

Must we all be forced to explain the views of individual imams?
I am quite sure that there are many people who were in the presence of their pastors giving their sunday diatribe when some personal view or interpretation of scripture voiced by the priest differed with the ideology or belief of the listener, without any confrontation forthcoming on the behalf of the party which disagreed.  In some cases, i am sure that said diatribe could, on some occasions, be considered hateful, or even discriminatory by someone else.
Most people would voice their displeasure over what was said in their own homes, or while in the company of like minded people.
 
 
 
  Well i can't speak for any other christian denomination. But i can honestly say that within Catholicism, priests must allways be uniform and preach a message of tolerance towards others of differeing beliefs... even within Christianity. We actually pray for all non catholics... no not to convert. Though i know there are some preaches within certain denominations preach that Catholicism is of Satan. That is their right to believe. But even if i attend the church of Lucifer as some believe. None of these preachers are calling for my death. None of these preachers are talking about dis-regarding the laws in democratic western states in which their adherents live. 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 11:34am
Damo, that may be because the laws you are talking about were created, in part, by the christian religion...although, i think abortion and homosexuality is something which, just of the top of my head, comes to mind as a probable example.
Do christians priests, where abortion or the marrying of homosexuals is legal, not denounce such a thing...therefore disregarding the "laws" in the democratic western states in which they live? 
Oh, and what about methadone clinics, or free needles? 


Edited by scruggnut - 19 May 2008 at 11:36am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 
Originally posted by waheed1

There are over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many people attend the greenside mosque?

Have you not been in the presence of a pastor saying something you did not agree with?

Must we all be forced to explain the views of individual imams?
 
 
 Again... its clearly obvious you haven't watched the video...
  The video focused specifically on hardline Islam being preached in England. Which Amy denied was a reality. The programme was making the point that NO LONGER is Islamic militantism ONLY prevalent in some islamic countries, but is now being exported to many western democratic states and how much apparent lip-service is being paid to it by those generally regarded as Moderate Islamic representatives.
 
 
 
Originally posted by scruggnut

Originally posted by waheed1

There are over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many people attend the greenside mosque?

Have you not been in the presence of a pastor saying something you did not agree with?

Must we all be forced to explain the views of individual imams?
I am quite sure that there are many people who were in the presence of their pastors giving their sunday diatribe when some personal view or interpretation of scripture voiced by the priest differed with the ideology or belief of the listener, without any confrontation forthcoming on the behalf of the party which disagreed.  In some cases, i am sure that said diatribe could, on some occasions, be considered hateful, or even discriminatory by someone else.
Most people would voice their displeasure over what was said in their own homes, or while in the company of like minded people.
 
 
 
  Well i can't speak for any other christian denomination. But i can honestly say that within Catholicism, priests must allways be uniform and preach a message of tolerance towards others of differeing beliefs... even within Christianity. We actually pray for all non catholics... no not to convert. Though i know there are some preaches within certain denominations preach that Catholicism is of Satan. That is their right to believe. But even if i attend the church of Lucifer as some believe. None of these preachers are calling for my death. None of these preachers are talking about dis-regarding the laws in democratic western states in which their adherents live. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Don't confuse what you desire to be true with what actually is true.
Catholic priests will denounce things that are "law".
I will also not hesitate in saying that some probably try to incite within their flock, a hatred of islam...just as i know there are imams out there who do the same as regards christianity.
It goes back to the famous quote...there is just enough religion to make us hate; but not enough to make us love.


Edited by scruggnut - 19 May 2008 at 12:05pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 12:04pm
I don't know why my statement is in the blue.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 12:47pm
I guess you don't want to address that, huh, damo.
I think that ultimately, we are people; priests, imams, believers, non-believers, all people...and we all make mistakes.
We are all capable of judging issues and people, sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly.
The true test of ones character, though, is whether or not one is willing to admit that they have made a mistake, and are then willing to change that which was wrong.


Edited by scruggnut - 19 May 2008 at 12:49pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by scruggnut

Damo, that may be because the laws you are talking about were created, in part, by the christian religion...although, i think abortion and homosexuality is something which, just of the top of my head, comes to mind as a probable example.
Do christians priests, where abortion or the marrying of homosexuals is legal, not denounce such a thing...therefore disregarding the "laws" in the democratic western states in which they live? 
Oh, and what about methadone clinics, or free needles? 
 
 
 
  The difference here unless you didn't notice scrugg, the abortion issue is an ethical one... Is not abortion another form of terrorism.. terminating the lives of the innocent. But unlike the unborn, Muslims in every western european democracy are given the dignity of human rights to exist live, and the right believe in what they believe, so long as they let others do so without hindrance. Given full use of a fair trial in court. The church condems what it calls killing innocent victims. All life is sacred be it Muslim Jew Buddist etc. Against that, the video clearly shows clerics encouraging their listeners not to co-operate with the authorities in regards to matters which could present serious security problems or worse some time later .
 
 
 
 Scrugg.. i donno if you watched the video... but the differences are polar opposite... One is fighting to protect human life in society, the other is threatening to raise up against their fellow human in what was already by law held to be a tollerent society. Remember that the UK and most other western governments are goverened through a secular framework. Which gives equality to each human regardless of their colour and creed. Its not perfect. The ideology of these people in the video is to overthrough the harmony to impose its on will on everyone.


Edited by Damo808 - 19 May 2008 at 2:31pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 2:32pm
I did watch the video, the whole video, more than once, before you mentioned it, someone brought the undercover report to my attention.

While most of the speakers on it were quoted as saying things that were not good, even if some was out of context, that by no means represent a majority trend within the muslim community, especially in the West.

We spoke of Pat Robertson before, what about John Hagee? Do they not attract crowds of listeners? Do they not say things that have shock value?

You can say 'well, they are small potatoes, and not from my church'. That's true. Well, I am saying the same thing.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 2:51pm
 
While most of the speakers on it were quoted as saying things that were not good, even if some was out of context..
 
 I guess you missed the post earlier ... The production team went to the High Court to prove there was nothing out of context... Thats precisly the point. These guys are not idiots. They are an award winning production team, they have done many documentaries which have included one which don;t shine two good on the British and American governments also, so they can hardly be accused of bias.
 The only editing which was done was so fit what was said into a 50 minute slot... They know the footage of such sensitive material could be liblelous if they were not able to back it up.. with full context on hundreds of hours of film.... It wasn't either that all they found within hundreds of hours of footage just 50 minutes to justify a programme.. Remember this was just a sample of what was the norm for months.
 
 
 Tell me when Any Christian evangelist reffers to Muslims then grunts like a pig... Tell me when he uses anything other than Muslim to decribe a Muslim... unlike kuffr, Karif and so on, rather than Christians  or Jew or unbeliever.. If pat robertson is what you call extreme, then check out whats the norm in islamic states on MEMRI TV.


Edited by Damo808 - 19 May 2008 at 2:55pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 3:05pm
[quoTell me when Any Christian evangelist reffers to Muslims then grunts like a pig... Tell me when he uses anything other than Muslim to decribe a Muslim... unlike kuffr, Karif and so on, rather than Christians  or Jew or unbeliever.. If pat robertson is what you call extreme, then check out whats the norm in islamic states on MEMRI TV. [/quote]


I have watched memri quite alot actually, and if you have never seen Hagee and some of those other evangelicals on tv, well I don't know what else to say. I have heard and read with my own eyes and ears Christian figures speaking really violent and hateful statements..including calling for the bombing of the so called mega mosque in London....

what does that prove? Only that the individuals speaking have agendas and/or are simply ignorant.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2008 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by waheed1

[quoTell me when Any Christian evangelist reffers to Muslims then grunts like a pig... Tell me when he uses anything other than Muslim to decribe a Muslim... unlike kuffr, Karif and so on, rather than Christians  or Jew or unbeliever.. If pat robertson is what you call extreme, then check out whats the norm in islamic states on MEMRI TV.



I have watched memri quite alot actually, and if you have never seen Hagee and some of those other evangelicals on tv, well I don't know what else to say. I have heard and read with my own eyes and ears Christian figures speaking really violent and hateful statements..including calling for the bombing of the so called mega mosque in London....

what does that prove? Only that the individuals speaking have agendas and/or are simply ignorant.
[/QUOTE]
 
 It proves they have little influence as they don't seem to have many/any dedicated adherents willing to carry out attrocities in the name of Christianity


Edited by Damo808 - 19 May 2008 at 8:12pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2008 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by scruggnut

Damo, that may be because the laws you are talking about were created, in part, by the christian religion...although, i think abortion and homosexuality is something which, just of the top of my head, comes to mind as a probable example.
Do christians priests, where abortion or the marrying of homosexuals is legal, not denounce such a thing...therefore disregarding the "laws" in the democratic western states in which they live? 
Oh, and what about methadone clinics, or free needles? 
 
 
 
  The difference here unless you didn't notice scrugg, the abortion issue is an ethical one... Is not abortion another form of terrorism.. terminating the lives of the innocent. But unlike the unborn, Muslims in every western european democracy are given the dignity of human rights to exist live, and the right believe in what they believe, so long as they let others do so without hindrance. Given full use of a fair trial in court. The church condems what it calls killing innocent victims. All life is sacred be it Muslim Jew Buddist etc. Against that, the video clearly shows clerics encouraging their listeners not to co-operate with the authorities in regards to matters which could present serious security problems or worse some time later .
 
 
 
 Scrugg.. i donno if you watched the video... but the differences are polar opposite... One is fighting to protect human life in society, the other is threatening to raise up against their fellow human in what was already by law held to be a tollerent society. Remember that the UK and most other western governments are goverened through a secular framework. Which gives equality to each human regardless of their colour and creed. Its not perfect. The ideology of these people in the video is to overthrough the harmony to impose its on will on everyone.
Things always seem like polor opposites when you can justify the behaviour of one, while condemning the behaviour of another.  The ironic thing is that is exactly the same thing that the supposed polor opposite is doing; with just as much justification and vigour that happens to exist on the other side.
The reality, as is often the case, is that while things are different in many ways, they are also similar in many ways.
What you initially stated, damo, is that no catholics priest are denouncing the laws of the country in which their adherents live.
Since you're statement has been proven wrong, you now try and justify why the priests are doing the EXACT thing which you stated they aren't doing.
The church indeed condemns the killing of innocents, but ironically it has maybe the most names on a list in which IT is responsible for the killing of innocents.  I'm sure that many of those who were killed in the name of god by those who believed in god, were justified by the hands which perpetrated such deeds...but calling it your job, sure doesn't make it right.
I do not condone the the ideas behind the video....but i also cannot condone statements like yours which are utterly false and biased.
To be ethical, damo, would be to admit that you were wrong, and that catholic priests are guilty of condeming some laws in places where their adherents live, sans the justification...since justifying our aberrant behaviour, while condemning the behaviour of others, leads to nothing...especially understanding and communication; and therefore, prevents possible resolutions.
Hypocrisy is so unbecoming. 
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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