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bcgirl  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2008 at 12:05pm
Salam and to all and hi madcat, it fills my heart with joy to hear such words from a complete stranger. The thought that a few words of mine could bring comfort to someone i dont even know, well that the tops. As you can very well tell i'd say most pp on here make their point by quoting verses straight out of the bible whether that be the Holy Bible nt or ot, and  the Holy Qur'an. I myself like to take a different approach to things and put a different perspective and hope that i can make even just a little difference. I look at things from a more psychological point where most others are pure reference only. Both are correct but as i mentioned above it is how one can articulate a word or sentence that can help to solve a misunderstanding or misconception you may have. Thank you for you kind words, and being open enough to take a fresh perspective.
 
Salam, and hello to maghi, well maghi i have read alot of your posts and i see you to speak with alot of conviction and are very thorough and informed in your wording and your approach. What i didnt like though was how you tried to twist the words around in my post by mentioining the prophet and how he didnt want his pp to know of his salvation because he didnt want them to be slackers. Ok, well please tell us something we dont know. You quoting scripture from the bible that everyone has already read is a nice refresher but what i did, was give my angle and looked what happened, i brought just a little peace to someone i dont even know.
 
Also you speak of the so called "extemeists" of the west and how all the pp over here are brainswashed and cant take one thing in moderation. Perhaps you have never attended as what the europeans call "football"as to us weterners call soccer game in europe?? Do you know any fooftball fans?? those are some of the mot exteme pp case and point!! Have you ever lived in the west to come to such a conclusion?? See i havent been to Europe so in my intelect i am not going to comment on a a place i have never been or had the experience of. Perhaps you have lived here, if so, i apologize for that last comment, if not, get your facts straight and you shouldnt comment based on what you see on t.v., or whatever unreliable resource you have attained unless you have experienced it hands on.
 
And speaking of pp being imbalanced, if you think its only pp in the west who dont take things in moderation, you are sadly mistaken. The life here is crazy yes, its all money driven but its a 1st world country what do you expect??? And saying how everyone here is in "extreme" mode and its removed from their nature, how can you make a comment like that?? perhaps most like to overindulge in thier surroundings but how can you judge a whole society on what you have heard about a few pp and some fairytale story which you saw on t.v. or wherever you source comes from.
 
In closing, i dont think it is fair to say that one is "imbalanced" just because they live in a certain place and society, how close minded it that?? when a member came on here last week asking about certain meds are you going to call them "imbalanced" because you dont agree with the way they choose to live thier life or take care of their own mental stablity?? Perhaps its you who needs to take a look in the mirror and accept that all pp including every last person on this forum has a right to express their own opinion without being pointed a finger at simply because they commented or liked a different perspective/opinion other than one coming from you. If i brought madcat some perspective great!! why cant you just leave it at that??? why bring circular logic and twist words around??
 
You read my post "a friendly suggestion" ?? i remember you put a little happy face on there and yet what you did here completely contradicted what i said in that post. were you being sarcastic and perhaps you didnt agree?? well i dont need favors from anyone if you dont agree, great, we all have that right....... i just wish pp would start to comprehend this........ 


Edited by bcgirl - 06 June 2008 at 12:11pm
Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...
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bcgirl  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2008 at 12:36pm
Hi Madcat,
Yes i just wanted to reiterate a bit more in what you said, for one, im glad that you could see this in the light and have enough intelect to understand that i wasnt suggesting that such a topic would "in fact" bring a person to insanity but if pondered enough to the point where it is constantly consuming ones' thoughts, yes this is and will become a hinderance despite what others may think,say or feel. Only you know what is knockin around in that brain of yours and we all let our minds get the best of us sometimes and they can become like a train that has de-railed from the trax. If you want to try something i read its when your brain is "having this party at your expense", lol, to say to yourself...What am i thinking? What am I feeling? Am I aware? the moment you bring yourself back to the "present moment" im telling you its like the doctor has snapped their finger and taken you out of your hypnotic state.
 
I am guilty of these thoughts too, but speaking with them with others who understand what you are going thru helps alot too, if you mention to a friend or family member who replies, oh hey man, forget about it who cares anyways??? and you are screaming inside... i do!! i care!!!  this can be frustrating so just surround your self with pp who are open to taking about this and take this into consideration as you do yourself.
 
The key brother is moderation and i nor anyone on here can tell you, suggest to you or make you think or feel a certain way. This is your business and your mind and you have every right to feel the way you wish. Try as i said though to not let this be on your mind all the time, it will creep up now and again(perhpas more if you have just commited a sin) and then it feels heavy, i know, but as i said and you reiterated this is huge but we cant let it consume us because if we let it....what kind of life is that?? you may as well be a vegetable, because you wont enjoy life anyways.
 
Keep your mind as occupied as possible with hobbies, and things you enjoy, your family and friends and if you have any kids or little pp in your family they are sure to take your mind off anything serious!!! I wish you all the best and just to let you know in your response to me the last sentence, I have utter faith in God, I feel His presence around me and i know when He is testing me, i can feel it in my gut..lol, instinct better word?? but He helps me alot and I feel His love and compassion and mercy and all His greatness. I feel blessed for the most part, i hope you do as well.
Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...
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maghi85  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote maghi85 Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2008 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

Salam and to all and hi madcat, it fills my heart with joy to hear such words from a complete stranger. The thought that a few words of mine could bring comfort to someone i dont even know, well that the tops. As you can very well tell i'd say most pp on here make their point by quoting verses straight out of the bible whether that be the Holy Bible nt or ot, and  the Holy Qur'an. I myself like to take a different approach to things and put a different perspective and hope that i can make even just a little difference. I look at things from a more psychological point where most others are pure reference only. Both are correct but as i mentioned above it is how one can articulate a word or sentence that can help to solve a misunderstanding or misconception you may have. Thank you for you kind words, and being open enough to take a fresh perspective.
 
Salam, and hello to maghi, well maghi i have read alot of your posts and i see you to speak with alot of conviction and are very thorough and informed in your wording and your approach. What i didnt like though was how you tried to twist the words around in my post by mentioining the prophet and how he didnt want his pp to know of his salvation because he didnt want them to be slackers. Ok, well please tell us something we dont know. You quoting scripture from the bible that everyone has already read is a nice refresher but what i did, was give my angle and looked what happened, i brought just a little peace to someone i dont even know.
 
Also you speak of the so called "extemeists" of the west and how all the pp over here are brainswashed and cant take one thing in moderation. Perhaps you have never attended as what the europeans call "football"as to us weterners call soccer game in europe?? Do you know any fooftball fans?? those are some of the mot exteme pp case and point!! Have you ever lived in the west to come to such a conclusion?? See i havent been to Europe so in my intelect i am not going to comment on a a place i have never been or had the experience of. Perhaps you have lived here, if so, i apologize for that last comment, if not, get your facts straight and you shouldnt comment based on what you see on t.v., or whatever unreliable resource you have attained unless you have experienced it hands on.
 
And speaking of pp being imbalanced, if you think its only pp in the west who dont take things in moderation, you are sadly mistaken. The life here is crazy yes, its all money driven but its a 1st world country what do you expect??? And saying how everyone here is in "extreme" mode and its removed from their nature, how can you make a comment like that?? perhaps most like to overindulge in thier surroundings but how can you judge a whole society on what you have heard about a few pp and some fairytale story which you saw on t.v. or wherever you source comes from.
 
In closing, i dont think it is fair to say that one is "imbalanced" just because they live in a certain place and society, how close minded it that?? when a member came on here last week asking about certain meds are you going to call them "imbalanced" because you dont agree with the way they choose to live thier life or take care of their own mental stablity?? Perhaps its you who needs to take a look in the mirror and accept that all pp including every last person on this forum has a right to express their own opinion without being pointed a finger at simply because they commented or liked a different perspective/opinion other than one coming from you. If i brought madcat some perspective great!! why cant you just leave it at that??? why bring circular logic and twist words around??
 
You read my post "a friendly suggestion" ?? i remember you put a little happy face on there and yet what you did here completely contradicted what i said in that post. were you being sarcastic and perhaps you didnt agree?? well i dont need favors from anyone if you dont agree, great, we all have that right....... i just wish pp would start to comprehend this........ 



i'm sorry dear but I still haven't responded to your post in this thread. I was responding to Mad Cats post and I haven't quoted any verses from the bible yet..
with regards to balance and imblance It was actually a post-script to my post before it where I mentioned a balance between hope and fear. I also did mention that  "but ofcourse all communities are paradoxical with the balanced and the imbalanced" so I didn't really generalize all of the west even though the general trend is extremism....

I have lived in the west dear for a considerable amount of time and have been exposed to the western culture all my life...
i think it's just some sort of misunderstanding here
salaams
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maghi85  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote maghi85 Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2008 at 12:56pm
and nor have i quoted or referred to your posts...
it's just a misunderstanding
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2008 at 4:15am

Maghi

So Muhammad knew that shaadah is all that is required for heaven but he said publicly that whilst believing these two things himself, he was not sure about his own salvation! You say;
a. because of his submission and utter humility before Allah
b. to create the balance of hope and fear amongst the Muslims

  1. Truth is truth. To suggest something else is not humble or submissive but just plain incorrect.
  2. Is this not something that is possible to explain without saying something that is not true?

It seems misleading at best and at worst, dishonest.

Saying that he is not sure of himself seems misleading and confusing.

The problem I have with this is that every time you go to a human person to tell you what the Qurían means, you open yourself up to their fallible understanding and even their abuse, which often comes with positions of power.

Can an all-powerful God not explain things in a way that a complete ignorant can grasp?

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2008 at 4:26am

Originally posted by maghi85

Öso I didn't really generalize all of the west even though the general trend is extremism....

Originally posted by maghi85

everything's flipping extreme in the west
balance I think is almost removed from their nature

 

I think bcgirl was right to bring you up on this point. You do make some sweeping statements, which I donít agree with. I live in the west and whilst there are some things that are extreme, they are exactly that, extreme, meaning that they stand out from the majority.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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maghi85  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote maghi85 Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:21am
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Maghi

So Muhammad knew that shaadah is all that is required for heaven but he said publicly that whilst believing these two things himself, he was not sure about his own salvation! You say;
a. because of his submission and utter humility before Allah
b. to create the balance of hope and fear amongst the Muslims

  1. Truth is truth. To suggest something else is not humble or submissive but just plain incorrect.
  2. Is this not something that is possible to explain without saying something that is not true?

It seems misleading at best and at worst, dishonest.

Saying that he is not sure of himself seems misleading and confusing.

The problem I have with this is that every time you go to a human person to tell you what the Qurían means, you open yourself up to their fallible understanding and even their abuse, which often comes with positions of power.

Can an all-powerful God not explain things in a way that a complete ignorant can grasp?

 
this is essentially what happens when one speaks religion with people who haven't studied Islamic creed and neither do they want to study it but yet they keep giving their opinions on it. The same cycle always repeats itself and the same arguments keep coming back again and again because the basic understanding isn't even there.
had you read all of my posts in this thread carefully you would've known by now that although the shaadah is a criterion for paradise; the shaadah itself is from the Mercy of Allah.
for you to die; as in leave this world believing in the Shaadah is also a Mercy from God. since you can believe in the Shaadah today but before you die you could reject God. It is only God's mercy that will keep you in the faith....
hence the Prophet pbuh said that even I would enter paradise only if Allah shows mercy to me.
it was not incorrect rather it was the absolute truth.
but again I have a feeling that this discussion will be futile since this pattern will not end unless something is learnt
 
to assume falliable interpretations of the Quran upon scholars is a clever trick of an ego that readily assumes infalliable interpretations of the Quran to the self.
and speaking of generalizing; is this anything other than generalization??? *scholars* *hint* *hint*
 
and if all men were equal then why send prophets?? Allah could have just inspired every man...
he could've simply inspired every other man who's a slave to their lower desires and who is arrogant before Allah and who is heedless of Allah.
after all we're all equal right?!... the arrogant and the humble they're both completely equal just as the ignorant and the one who struggled to gain knowledge are too equal.
similarly the sincere and the hypocrite too are very much equal and identical.
also the one who spent his entire life seeking God is equal to the one who never thought about God but just likes getting in to debates to prove the self (ego) right; they two are absolute twins infact!!! I wouldn't be able to tell the difference
amazing in it!?
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bcgirl  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:57am
Salam, hi ok maghi thats cool, i wasnt trying to be difficult, i just responded to what my interpretation was of what you wrote, but you did mention of exremeism is the west, and no mention in the east...... by west do you mean western europe or the western hemisphere?? if you would please clarify and if im not mistaken i do believe you are in the UK and mentioned this in another post, i am in canada, so west to me is if you live in north america anywhere this is inclusive to canada, US, and Mexico, of course South America is also considered the western hemishpere as well but i dont think there is anyone from there on this particular site. you also mentioned you lived in the west for many years so you can back up your extemeism point, was that canada or US?? this is not just directed at you but to anyone unless they have lived here, its like night and day, oil and water from europe and any anywhere east,its like comparing apples and oranges, and yes there is pp who go to extremes and overindulge but this happens everywhere, to isolate this purely in the west... this is hypocritical especially since the unfortunate reason Islam has such a bad name in the 1st place is because of extemeists who think they speak for everyone who is a muslim which obviously could be no farther from the truth. I know and you know this, and all one has to do i check out one of bin ladens' commentaries on al jezeera and this speaks in volumes as to what i just said.
 
 
Originally posted by maghi85

everything's
flipping extreme in the west
balance I think is almost removed from their nature
 
I just wanted to post this here as to show my point as stated above and as you so nicely mentioned so there wasnt any misunderstandings.
Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...
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maghi85  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote maghi85 Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2008 at 11:27am
salamualaikum bcgirl

my complete quote would be
balance is a concept alien to the post-modern mind.
especially to the western mind where there is tooo much extremism in everything


by post-modern mind I meant the whole world influenced by modernity as we see it today.
By western mind i mean all the people that have been influenced by the western media which includes many parts of the western hemisphere as it includes many parts of the eastern hemisphere...
anyways, i lived in Canada as well =)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 08 June 2008 at 4:03am
Originally posted by Mad Cat

What I am trying to understand is quite simply what the requirements of heaven in Islam are with Quranic references.

It gets confusing when presented with verses that say you just have to believe in Allah, the last day, the angels and the prophets because I as a Christian do that.

Then you get other verses saying that you just have to believe in Allah and Muhammad as his Prophet but donít mention the angels and other stuff.

2:112 says quite clearly that you just have to believe in God and do good.

3:195 seems to say that anyone who suffers physically for Islam with gain heaven.

3:198 seems to say that those who fear Allah will gain heaven.

3:199 not sure but seems to be hinting at some among the Jews and Christians gaining heaven.

5:69 seems to be clearly saying that Jews, Christians and Sabians will gain heaven as long as they believe and do good works.

22:17 seems to contradict 5:69 by replacing the works and belief mentioned above with Allahís decision and no mention of works or belief

This is by no means exhaustive but I hope my point is made.

It is confusing and I cant find a part of the Quran that clears all this up simply and clearly, without just hinting at what it means or without seeming to contradict other verses in the Quran.



Dear MadCat,

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I have been too busy these days, and besides that this thread has taken a new life and it was hard to catch up with it all.

I went through all these verses, and they don't contradict each other, rather they simply add more details as to what "Believing in God, the last day and righteous works" means.

Surah 22:17 has very little relationship to this topic, all it's really saying is that argument about theological differences will be resolved by God himself on the day of judgment. There, the message is not really about heaven or hell. It does not contradict other Quranic assertions that those who have accepted faith and perform righteous deeds will be rewarded by God.

Some of these issues, as well as commentary on at least three of the verses you have cited, are available at the link below, the article called "Deen in the presence of God".

http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com/2008/01/deen-in-presence-of-god-inclusive-or.html

Regards,
S.Waheed
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2008 at 7:23pm

Hello again Maghi, sorry for the delay.

I think one of the problems I am having with what you say is that it is so different to what I understood Muslims to believe. I donít know how much this is your interpretation on things and how much is generally accepted and itís not easy to pin down exactly what you believe.

I also have a problem qualifying what you say with the reality of what you say.

Maybe it is time to knock it on the head as general feeling is one of futility.

 

Waheed, I understand what you are saying but it would make more sense to me for these verses to be grouped together if they were meant to explain and expand on one another. Like you or I would make a point and then explain or expand on it in the same paragraph.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2008 at 8:00pm
Waheed, I understand what you are saying but it would make more sense to me for these verses to be grouped together if they were meant to explain and expand on one another. Like you or I would make a point and then explain or expand on it in the same paragraph.


Well, I understand the point, however the nature and style of the Qur'an is not like that. It addresses varying issues throughout the book. For more on this, please see

An introduction to the Qur'an [PDF format]
http://islaminviewforum.com/index.php?showtopic=104
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2008 at 7:44am
Will do!
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Challa Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2008 at 2:07pm
My basic understanding of why the Prophet (PBUH) said that only by Allah's mercy will he be allowed into heaven is that we should have faith and belief but not be so arrogant as to assume any of us "deserve" to be in heaven.
 
One should have both love of Allah our Creator and fear. Going to one level only or othe other is not beneficial. To much fear can lead to lack of hope and despair. And we should not despair. Too much the other way, one can assume that Allah will forgive no matter what. This can lead to doing wrong actions and lack of humbleness. So a person continually does bad assuming Allah will forgive. Leads us to loose remembrance of Allah and striving for improvement.
 
And to assume 'forgivenss" also can lead to presuming they know Allah more then they are capable of.
 
That is my 2 cents.
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