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firmhandhold
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote firmhandhold Replybullet Topic: A Question to Atheists
    Posted: 10 July 2008 at 3:56pm

Dr. Zakir Nike proves the existence of Allah by applying probability theory to the scientific facts mentioned in Qur'an 1430 years ago.

Scientific Facts in Qur'an - Audio Part 1

 
 
If the link of probability theory doesn't work, click here
 
Isn't it stunning?  If not then please elaborate.
 
 
 


Edited by firmhandhold - 11 July 2008 at 12:09am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote maghi85 Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2008 at 4:09pm

"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2008 at 7:40pm
Salam, hey i clicked on the probability theory (just above) in firmhandhold's thread and the topics at hand seemed quite interesting..... i read the main paragraph and went thru most of the Q&A part, not done looking....... i just wanted some more opinions, preferably from the muslim brothers and sisters as to what  your opinion is of this doctor, have you read any of this stuff and is what he's saying credible??? The referal sites that everyone posts on here to be/get more informed on Islam is quite mind boggling to say the least, you would have to quit your job to read them all and go thru every article on every site, its great to have the variety but like for me for instance....for someone who is trying to educate herself on Islam and surround myself around pp of the faith and so on..but there are sooo many sites you have to admit..... so all in all..... is this one of one of the  more credible ones???    
 
 


Edited by bcgirl - 10 July 2008 at 7:41pm
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thejnk  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2008 at 7:43am
Dr. Naik is a deceitful showman who keeps employing long discredited arguments with no historical or scholarly basis.

An example for this is from the third link above, in which Naik says concerning the shape of the earth, somewhere around the middle of the article, "at the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat". Now it is understandable why Naik would wish this to be this to be the case, it is however completely false.

It is a historical fact that the ancients Greeks have deduced the correct shape of the Earth (they even calculated its exact circumference) and it is also a historical fact that this knowledge - contrary to popular opinion - was not lost with time. For example, Saint Bede, who lived at the time of Mohamed, in his treatise "on the nature of things" explains how the spherical shape of the earth is responsible for the change of daylight during seasons. Similar references to the correct shape of the earth can be found continuously ever since the classical Greek era, either before the time of Mohamed, at the time of Mohamed or long afterwards, up to the modern times.

Now while it is true that certain theologians have argued on and off for a flat earth, strictly on scriptural grounds, this does not imply that this was the official stance of the Church or that this was indicative of the knowledge of the people at the time. As evidence for a widespread and continuous belief in a spherical earth one has only to look at the controversy over whether there were people living in the antipodes that begun at the time of St Thomas Aquinas and continued all the way to the Middle Ages.

It is therefore obvious to anyone with an elementary knowledge of history that people (in general) at the time of Mohamed DID NOT believe in a flat earth.

So why does Dr. Naik says they did ?

One must always keep in mind that Naik is a showman, not a scholar. His objective is to promote his religion and entertain his audience and not to seek for the truth. If he had claimed that belief in a spherical earth, even though widespread at the time, was most probably not known by Mohamed or his fellow Arabs it would have made for a totally unconvincing argument. Now if he lied, and claimed that people in general believed in a flat earth while Mohamed taught of a spherical one, now that is an impressive argument. If he continued the lie a bit further and claim that it took modern science to verify that the earth was spherical, now that is an even more impressive argument.

I think you get the idea.

I could point out more errors in that article (specifically about his naive and laughable views on probabilities) but I think it is really besides the point. Suffice is to say that if one wants to actually learn something of value he should stay clear off this guy. If on the other hand dawa propaganda and the occasional bs is what you are after, then Dr. Naik is the guy for you.


(edited to correct the name of dr Naik as per Aviatrix's correction)




Edited by thejnk - 11 July 2008 at 5:56pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2008 at 10:45am
Zakir Naik, is his name. Not "Zaik."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2008 at 11:12am

WEll, i delved a little further on the link i was questioning above, and while he proposed some interesting points, some of the answers in the Q&A part were, i found to be manipulative to someone who didnt or doesnt know any better. I went thru most of this part as it  asked very valid questions that a typical non-muslim would ask. Hence, i looked over the answers he gave. Some were on par, and some were you could tell deviating from the topic at hand and more his own opinon not actual fact(s).  

As i mentioned before there are alot of Islamic sites to educate one who is wanting to learn and grasp to concept and ways of this beautiful faith. However, if one has a keen eye it is easy to determine whether one is trying to promote his faith to non-believers, as some sort of advocate for their religion/faith, and then there are the ones who speak from the heart and want to truly inspire and teach the people who are not well versed on this wonderful but widely misunderstood faith. Not all can read between the lines so to speak, so this is hard if one just reads words on paper or on a screen and takes them as such, just at face value, with no interpretation on their part personally.
 
I have my Qur'an Inshallah, and i will continue to read but from what i seen from this doctor and his site so far, i like the info, but i do detect other insincere motives which i can pick out from some of the answers he has given, therefore, i will take the deeper issues of what he has said with a grain of salt for my own well being and comprehension. I am not deterring him, but i do agree with some of points the jink has made and like everyone else on here we all have to right to our own opinion and interpretation.          
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firmhandhold
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote firmhandhold Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2008 at 11:29pm

I was reading about the techniques of the Art of Debate and I though I should share the following with bcgirl and thejnk without any intention to offend.

Another method for creating confusion among the hearers is to attack the character of the opponent. Actually the opponent' scharacter has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. Rather, every subject should be discussed on the basis of facts. However, once the opponent's character is attacked, people's attention is drawn away mainly that subject and the actual issues are overlooked. We see the above tactics used repeatedly in the doctrinal arena. A person points out the errors and he resies prevalent among believers, and immediately the heretics launch a character assassination camp against the Apologist. There is no talk about the doctrinal issues involved. The Apologist can face this situation, not by dwelling upon his character, but by drawing the attention of the audience to the main subject involved.

 
 
THE FLAT-EARTH / ROUND EARTH CONTROVERSY
Original Version by Stanley Weinberg
 
Is the earth flat like a pancake or spherical like a globe? From ancient times each concept has had its supporters. The Sumerians, Babylonians, ancient Egyptians, early Hebrews, and most Greeks believed in a flat earth. Some ancient Greek scientists, as well as many Church Fathers for example, Origen, the Venerable Bede, Albertus Magus, and St. Thomas-Aquinas supported the round earth. In late medieval and early modern times, Roger Bacon, Copernicus, Galileo, Columbus, andMagellan held that the earth is round. The modern flat-earth movement was founded in England about 1850 by Samuel Birley Rowbotham. WilliamCarpenter and Charles Johnson continued the movement. Johnson directs the International Flat Earth Research Society in Lancaster, California. The Society has a small number of true believers from many parts of the world. Another flat-earth group is the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church in Zion, Illinois, headed for many years by John Alexander Dowie and William Glenn Voliva. A flat earth is a basic doctrine of this church. Both concepts the flat earth and the round earth at first glance are equally reasonable. There is no basis for preferring one to the other. For example, both concepts allow eclipses to be predicted accurately. Prediction is possible, however, because eclipses occur at regular intervals. Accurate record-keeping makes it possible to determine these intervals. Only when we examine all the relevant evidence do we have a basis formaking a reasoned choice.
 
 
 
thejnk, the shape of the earth to be flat or spherical was not recognized as a fact till these modern ages. The chances that Prophet would have guessed the shape of the earth (flat / spherical) right were 50% but in Qur'an it is written correct.
 
 
 


Edited by firmhandhold - 12 July 2008 at 12:48am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by firmhandhold


thejnk, the shape of the earth to be flat or spherical was not recognized as a fact till these modern ages.


But this is irrelevant to the discussion. Naik did not say that people at the time could not be factually certain that the earth was spherical. Naik said that "at the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought that the world was flat." Which is of course false.

Both Plato and Aristotle argue for a spherical earth and so does St. Thomas Aquinas. These three are the writers that most heavily influenced western thought and philosphy from the formation of the Christian world all the way to the Middle Ages. According to Bertrand Russel science could only start anew when the world was able to break free from its infatuation with the works of Aristotle. This is how influential they were.

For someone to claim that people in general, at about 7th century CE, thought the world to be flat when all three of the above writers have argued in their works that it was spherical, then he must be either completely ignorant of historical facts or an outright lier. To be honest, I can't say for sure in which of the categories Dr Naik falls under.

As to the world only recently knowing for a fact that the world was a sphere, this is also not true. The Greeks have based their discovery on empirical observations and calculations, not abstract theorizations. For example, Aristotle have reached the conclusion that the Earth was spherical because it always casts a disk-shaped shadow on the Moon during lunar eclipses regardless of the position of the Moon in the sky. Eratoshenes calculated the circumference of the Earth measuring the shadows of objects at a specified date in two places of known distance. Islamic astronomers have used even more inovatives techniques reaching even greater accuracies. Al-Biruni in the 11th century calculated the radius of the earth with an accuracy of 16km of its actual value. Can you even believe this ? Just 16km of error and this is almost one thousand years ago we are talking about !

And then Dr Naik comes along and claims that people only recently found out that the world was not flat. And for what ? So that he could claim that Mohamed could only have known about this fact because he was a prophet.

But of course it is understandable that he gets away with saying such nonsense if you think that people like firmhandhold are his targeted audience.


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bcgirl Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 3:29pm
Salam firmhandhold, i was not in any way contesting that the earth is flat and not spherical.... what i said was that i read most of the Q&A part for typical questions asked by non-muslims which were listed as common questions and intellectual questions... in my interpretation of what i read some seemed to me a bit misleading and manipulative, if you cant see this then great, i dont expect or want you to, this is what i comprehended from what i read and how it transpired in my brain...... i can see you feel strongly if not passionately about this doctor and his teachings and this is great but please also undestand that when all of us here as individuals read his scripture, what we are digesting is different then from what you are, this isnt bad its just we all have our own intake on what we read especially.
 
i noticed you mentioned the jnk at the end when speaking of the flat earth but i just wanted to make myself clear as to what i got from what i read. Thanks...  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote maghi85 Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by firmhandhold

Dr. Zakir Nike proves the existence of Allah by applying probability theory to the scientific facts mentioned in Qur'an 1430 years ago.

Scientific Facts in Qur'an - Audio Part 1

 
 
If the link of probability theory doesn't work, click here
 
Isn't it stunning?  If not then please elaborate.
 
 
 



it's not stunning at all

Quran was never meant to be a scientific book.
neither the salafs nor the khalafs ever saw It as a scientific book

first of all there aren't many scientific facts in the first place. Most text-book facts that you study in school are in reality THEORIES and not facts

so if tomorrow some scientist somehow comes up with another theory that big bang never happened and the world isn't expanding then there goes the Quran for you.

believing in these scientific facts is very detrimental for Muslims especially those who are not sincere in worship and devotion towards Allah.

because they hang their beliefs on a thread
their belief in the Quran is as strong as their belief in these scientific THEORIES

Muslims should never forget that it is the SUNNAH of Allah to give His certitude and conviction ONLY to those people who are sincerely devoted in their worship to Allah and those who persevere in their devotion

nobody can get certitude of Allah in any other way and if someone thinks he has certitude in Allah because of these scientific THEORIES then he's only deluding himself.
the Prophet pbuh had the highest certitude in Allah and the Quran and yet he never believed in these scientific theories.
none of the companions did and neither did any of the scholars and saints that have come in the past 14 hundred years.

and suddenly in this """ENLIGHTENED""" century where the Muslims are "CLOSEST" to true Islam and are in the "BEST" state (i'm being sarcastic if you didn't get it by now) people have discovered a new thing about the Quran that none of the people who SHOULD BE emulated and followed,  that have lived in the past 1400 years, ever mentioned let alone believed in.

this is a fitnah of the end of times; people who believe in these theories will be in precarious states in the future when science somehow disproves its own theories like it always does.
and hence we should be cautious of these things; we should be cautious of the end of the times and how the Prophet pbuh warned us of it that people will wake up Muslims but will go to sleep non-Muslims
may Allah protect us all from the tribulations of the end of times
ameen

my sincere suggestion to any Muslim is to ignore these scientific proofs and to not give any room to them in the mind and the heart.
the Prophet pbuh didn't need these beliefs why should we? (EDITED: the Prophet pbuh NEVER read the Quran like this nor did He tell us to read the Quran in this manner so why should we?!?!")

and ESPECIALLY for someone who does not have a portion of sincere devotion and worship in his life!

I truly believe this is poison for the heart and poison for the mind and is in fact a trick of the tribulation of the anti-Christ (dajjal); such that he will make you build your castles on clouds and just when you think you know it all he'll blow those clouds away and you'll realize how false these beliefs were.

Learn how to make proper wudhu, prayer 5 times a day, give zakat and charity, fast in the month of Ramadan, be nice to your parents, your neighbors and all Muslims, be sincere in your worship, don’t think bad of other Muslims, do a lot of remembrance (zikir) of Allah, send a lot of salutations on the Prophet, wake up for tahajjud if you can, be humble, weep in front of Allah, love for others what you love for yourself, read the Quran with contemplation, and inshAllah Allah will give you certitude that is more clear than all of these false convictions and promises
Allah will put a light in your heart that will remove its veils and you will attain absolute certainty that will not shake even if everything around you shakes


you won't find any real scholar who took his knowledge from an unbroken chain of transmission all the way to the Prophet pbuh ever bragging about these supposedly scientific proofs in the Quran.
only autodidacts (people who studied from books) or weekend mullahs or people who haven't really spent the time needed to be a scholar talk about this



Edited by maghi85 - 12 July 2008 at 6:01pm
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firmhandhold
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote firmhandhold Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 5:47pm
maghi85, zakir replies your post in following words.
 
"I only talk about those facts mentioned 1400 ago in Qur'an that have been established as facts by modern science. I never talk about theories because science often takes U turns."
 
 
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firmhandhold
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote firmhandhold Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 5:54pm

Originally posted by firmhandhold

the shape of the earth to be flat or spherical was not recognized as a fact till these modern ages.

Originally posted by thejnk

But this is irrelevant to the discussion.
I only added my part of the irrelevence to the discussion.

Originally posted by thejnk

Naik did not say that people at the time could not be factually certain that the earth was spherical.
But I didn't attribute this uncertainity to naik, did I?

Originally posted by thejnk

Naik said that "at the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought that the world was flat." Which is of course false.
False? of course not. What nike said was that "at the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought that the world was flat". No one to this date has been successful to prove that Arabs knew about the spherical shape of the earth.

Originally posted by thejnk

Both Plato and Aristotle argue for a spherical earth and so does St. Thomas Aquinas.
Argued? Assumptions are argued and not facts. We are discussing about scientific facts rather then assumptions.

Originally posted by thejnk

For someone to claim that people in general, at about 7th century CE, thought the world to be flat when all three of the above writers have argued in their works that it was spherical

With the end of Roman civilization, Western Europe entered the Middle Ages with great difficulties that affected the continent's intellectual production. Most scientific treatises of classical antiquity (in Greek) were unavailable, leaving only simplified summaries and compilations.

So may be european people in general would have known the shape of the earth to be spheric as an assumption. At that time, Arabs in general could not even read their own Arabic so It is beyond imagination that Arabs were aware of the assumptions of Plato, Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Originally posted by thejnk

then he must be either completely ignorant of historical facts or an outright lier. To be honest, I can't say for sure in which of the categories Dr Naik falls under.

Another method for creating confusion among the hearers is to attack the character of the opponent. Actually the opponent' scharacter has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. Rather, every subject should be discussed on the basis of facts. However, once the opponent's character is attacked, people's attention is drawn away mainly that subject and the actual issues are overlooked.

Originally posted by thejnk

As to the world only recently knowing for a fact that the world was a sphere, this is also not true.
You seem to be uaware of the difference between "fact" and "assumption".

Originally posted by thejnk

The Greeks have based their discovery on empirical observations and calculations, not abstract theorizations.
Really?

Originally posted by thejnk

For example, Aristotle have reached the conclusion that the Earth was spherical because it always casts a disk-shaped shadow on the Moon during lunar eclipses regardless of the position of the Moon in the sky. Eratoshenes calculated the circumference of the Earth measuring the shadows of objects at a specified date in two places of known distance.
Everything they did was just an observation. Law of gravity was not discoved so the observation of their opponents was more stronger that how it is possible to keep the ocean in a curved shape.

Originally posted by thejnk

And then Dr Naik comes along and claims that people only recently found out that the world was not flat.
It is a fact that spherical shape of the earth was knows as a "fact" in recent times. Perviously it was just an assumption and this assumption was not known by Arabs.  

 
 


Edited by firmhandhold - 12 July 2008 at 7:02pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote maghi85 Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 5:56pm
you have to first understand a post before you can reply to it.
that statement of Dr. Naik contradicts itself.
but that's besides the point. It doesn't even address my post
 
the REAL fact is that there were no scientific facts mentioned in the Quran
Quran is not MEANT to be read like that.
It's simply not the purpose of the book so why derive something from it, by twisting, bending, and playing with the meanings of verses, just to prove something that is not the purpose in and of it self.
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firmhandhold
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote firmhandhold Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 6:46pm

Originally posted by maghi85

the REAL fact is that there were no scientific facts mentioned in the Quran
Was that you who revealed the Qur'an?

Originally posted by maghi85

Quran is not MEANT to be read like that.
Who are you to decide how Qur'an is meant to read?

Originally posted by maghi85

It's simply not the purpose of the book
Now I have seriously started to think that it was you who revealed the Qur'an and now you have come to told me that what was the purpose of your revelation.

Originally posted by maghi85

so why derive something from it, by twisting, bending, and playing with the meanings of verses, just to prove something that is not the purpose in and of it self.

But you haven't proved that zakir twisted, bended, and played with the meanings of verses. You just did takfir by putting zakir in the category of those Jews who used to twist, bend and play with the verses of Allah. As you are showing-off that you alone know the "hidden" purpose of the Book, it seems that the purpose of the Book was just to kick people like zakir out of the circle of Islam.

[003:190]  Of course, the creation of the heavens and the earth, as well as the (contrast and) alternation between the night and the day offer (many) signs for those with intellect.

[010:005]  He made the sun bright; He made the moon lustrous and destined several stages for it, so you may count the years and have a calendar! Allah created all that with a supreme purpose! He expands the significance of His signs for any nation with understanding!

[013:003]  He spread out the earth, and laid upon it mountains and rivers. He made fruits of all kinds in pairs, and He wrapped the day over the night. Surely, these are all signs for a pondering nation.

[029:035]  We have left their traces to serve as clear signs for any nation that follows reason.

[030:024]  And He shows you one of His signs, the bolts of lightning (which you observe) with fear and hope. From the sky He sends down water, and with it He brings the land _ after it had (withered and) died _ back to life. Surely, in that are signs for any nation that understands.

[031:031]  Do you not observe? It is due to His favor, and in order to show you His signs, that the ships sail on the sea. In that are surely signs for every steadfast and grateful person.


I am sure you can't explain the following verse becase you are not of those who ponder upon the signs.

[041:053]  Soon, We will show them Our signs in the universe, and even in their own bodies, until it becomes amply clear to them that, indeed, this (Qur’an) is the truth. Is it not enough for you that your Lord (watches and) witnesses every single thing

And I am sure of an other thing too. I am leaving whyislam for it is very difficult for me to reason with people like maghi85 with patience. So I should leave from here before that FC banns me to post in this forum too.

 
 
 
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