Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
InterReligious Dialogue
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : InterReligious Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: 101 Clear Contradictions of the Bible Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 4 Next >>
Author Message
keithnurse  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Location: United States
Religion: Other(Other)
Posts: 840
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote keithnurse Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 11:13am
If the Bible has contradictions in it, and it DOES, then, it is NOT inerrant.  If Christians are going to say the Bible was written by an all-knowing, all-powerful deity, then I expect nothing short of absolute accuracy in every single detail in the Bible.  The Bible does not meet that standard.  It does contain contradictions so Christians should be honest and admit that.
Unitarian Universalist
www.uua.org
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4266
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 2:37pm
Hi keith... I agree with you its just that some people imply deception is at the root.  
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Squeegie  
Senior Member
Senior Member

Religion: Christian(Non-Denom.)
Posts: 969
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 8:48pm
Wonder of wonders-

I just found a website that lists 102 clear contradictions found in the quran!


Now the 64 cent question-

Does anyone have a clue why I might make that statement? Hint: I didn't find such a website, though I'm sure one exists, so I didn't say it for the sake of one-upsmanship.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_truth  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 606
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_truth Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 10:37pm
Christian Scholars Recognize Contradictions in the Bible
 
“Then woe to those who write the book with their own hands and then say: ‘This is from God’, to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby.” (Quran 2:79)

“And when there came to them a messenger from God, Confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the book threw away the book of God behind their backs as if (it had been something) they did not know.”
(Quran 2:101)

“Ye shall not add unto the word which I (God) command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)

Let us start from the beginning. No Biblical scholar on this earth will claim that the Bible was written by Jesus himself. They all agree that the Bible was written after the departure of Jesus peace be upon him by his followers. Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

“..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men….It is Human, Yet Divine,”

Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

“...Not so the New Testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history...”

“It is well known that the primitive Christian Gospel was initially transmitted by word of mouth and that this oral tradition resulted in variant reporting of word and deed. It is equally true that when the Christian record was committed to writing it continued to be the subject of verbal variation. Involuntary and intentional, at the hands of scribes and editors.”

“Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament with the exception of the four great Epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy, and interpolations are asserted even in these.”

Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:

“[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written”

After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:

“Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference”

Throughout this book you will find countless other similar quotations from some of Christendom’s leading scholars. Let us suffice with these for now.

Christians are, in general, good and decent people, and the stronger their convictions the more decent they are. This is attested to in the noble Quran:

“...and nearest among them (men) in love to the believers will you find those who say ‘we are Christians’: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the messenger (Muhammad), you will see their eyes overflowing with tears for they recognize the truth: They pray: ‘Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.’” (Quran 5:82-83)

All biblical “versions” of the Bible prior to the revised version of 1881 were dependent upon the “Ancient Copies” (those dating between five to six hundred years after Jesus). The revisers of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) 1952 were the first biblical scholars to have access to the “MOST ancient copies” which date fully three to four hundred years after Christ. It is only logical for us to concur that the closer a document is to the source the more authentic it is. Let us see what is the opinion of Christendom with regard to the most revised version of the Bible (revised in 1952 and then again in 1971):

“The finest version which has been produced in the present century” - (Church of England newspaper)

“A completely fresh translation by scholars of the highest eminence” - (Times literary supplement)

“The well loved characteristics of the authorized version combined with a new accuracy of translation” - (Life and Work)

“The most accurate and close rendering of the original” - (The Times(

The publishers themselves (Collins) mention on page 10 of their notes:

“This Bible (RSV) is the product of thirty two scholars assisted by an advisory committee representing fifty cooperating denominations”

Let us see what these thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations have to say about the Authorized Version (AV), or as it is better known, the King James Version (KJV). In the preface of the RSV 1971 we find the following:

“...Yet the King James Version has GRAVE DEFECTS..”

They go on to caution us that:

“...That these defects are SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS as to call for revision”

The Jehovah’s Witnesses in their “AWAKE” Magazine dated 8th September 1957 published the following headline: “50,000 Errors in the Bible” wherein they say “..there are probably 50,000 errors in the Bible...errors which have crept into the Bible text...50,000 such serious errors...” After all of this, however, they go on to say: “...as a whole the Bible is accurate.” Let us have a look at only a very few of these errors.

In John 3:16 - AV(KJV) we read:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life..”

[…] this fabrication “begotten” has now been unceremoniously excised by these most eminent of Bible revisers. However, humanity did not have to wait 2000 years for this revelation.

In Maryam(19):88-98 of the noble Quran we read:

“And they say ‘God Most Compassionate has begotten a son!’ Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! The skies are ready to burst (at such a claim), and the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin. That they should ascribe a son to the Most Compassionate. But it is not befitting [the majesty of] the Most Compassionate that He should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to the Most Compassionate as a servant. He has taken account of all of them and has numbered them all exactly. And every one of them will come to him singly on the day of judgment. On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will God most gracious bestow love. Verily, We have made this [Quran] easy in your tongue [O Muhammad] that you might deliver glad tidings to those who seek refuge [in God] and warn with it a people who are contentious. And how many a generation before them have we destroyed! Can you find a single one of them or hear from them so much as a whisper?”
In 1st Epistle of John 5:7 (King James Version) we find:

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.”

As we have already seen in section 1.2.2.5, this verse is the closest approximation to what the Church calls the holy Trinity. However, as seen in that section, this cornerstone of the Christian faith has also been s****ped from the RSV by the same thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations, once again all according to the “most ancient manuscripts.” And once again, we find that the noble Quran revealed this truth over fourteen hundred years ago:

“O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of God, and his Word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from him so believe in God and his messengers. Say not “Three” desist It will be better for you for God is one God Glory be to him Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is God as a disposer of affairs.” (Quran 4:171)

Prior to 1952 all versions of the Bible made mention of one of the most miraculous events associated with the prophet Jesus peace be upon him, that of his ascension into heaven:

“So then the lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God” (Mark 16:19)

…and once again in Luke:

“While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.” (Luke 24:51-52)

In the 1952 RSV Mark 16 ends at verse 8 and the rest is relegated in small print to a footnote (more on this later). Similarly, in the commentary on the verses of Luke 24, we are told in the footnotes of the NRSV Bible “Other ancient authorities lack “and was carried up into heaven’“ and “Other ancient authorities lack ‘and worshipped him.’” Thus, we see that the verse of Luke in it’s original form only said:

“While he blessed them, he parted from them. And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy.”

It took centuries of “inspired correction” to give us Luke 24:51-52 in their current form.

As another example, in Luke 24:1-7 we read:

“Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spoke unto you when he was yet in Galilee, saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”

Once again, in reference to verse 5, the footnotes say: “Other ancient authorities lack ‘He is not here but has risen’”

The examples are far too numerous to list here, however, you are encouraged to obtain a copy of the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible for yourself and scan through the four gospels. You shall be hard pressed to find even two consecutive pages that do not contain the words “Other ancient authorities lack...” or “Other ancient authorities add...” etc.

We will note that every Gospel begins with the introduction “According to.....” such as “The Gospel according to Saint Matthew,” “The Gospel according to Saint Luke,” “The Gospel according to Saint Mark,” “The Gospel according to Saint John.” The obvious conclusion for the average man on the street is that these people are known to be the authors of the books attributed to them. This, however is not the case. Why? Because not one of the vaunted four thousand copies existent carries it’s author’s signature. It has just been assumed that they were the authors. Recent discoveries, however, refute this belief. Even the internal evidence proves that, for instance, Matthew did not write the Gospel attributed to him:

“...And as Jesus passed forth thence, HE (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and HE (Jesus) saith unto HIM (Matthew), follow ME (Jesus) and HE (Matthew) arose, and followed HIM (Jesus).” (Matthew 9:9)

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that neither Jesus nor Matthew wrote this verse of “Matthew.” Such evidence can be found in many places throughout the New Testament. Although many people have hypothesized that it is possible that an author sometimes may write in the third person, still, in light of the rest of the evidence that we shall see throughout this book, there is simply too much evidence against this hypothesis.

This observation is by no means limited to the New Testament. There is even proof that at least parts of Deuteronomy were neither written by God nor by Moses. This can be seen in Deuteronomy 34:5-10 where we read:

“So Moses....DIED... and he (God Almighty) BURIED HIM (Moses)... He was 120 years old WHEN HE DIED... and there arose not a prophet SINCE in Israel like unto Moses....”

Did Moses write his own obituary? Joshua also speaks in detail about his own death in Joshua 24:29-33. The evidence overwhelmingly supports the current recognition that most of the books of the Bible were not written by their supposed authors.

The authors of the RSV by Collins say that the author of “Kings” is “Unknown.” If they knew it to be the word of God they would have undoubtedly attributed it to him. Rather, they have chosen to honestly say “Author... Unknown.” But if the author is unknown then why attribute it to God? How can it then be claimed to have been “inspired”? Continuing, we read that the book of Isaiah is “Mainly credited to Isaiah. Parts may have been written by others.” Ecclesiastics: “Author. Doubtful, but commonly assigned to Solomon.” Ruth: “Author. Not definitely known, perhaps Samuel,” and on and on.

Let us have a slightly more detailed look at only one book of the New Testament:

“The author of the Book of Hebrews is unknown. Martin Luther suggested that Apollos was the author... Tertullian said that Hebrews was a letter of Barnabas... Adolf Harnack and J. Rendel Harris speculated that it was written by Priscilla (or Prisca). William Ramsey suggested that it was done by Philip. However, the traditional position is that the Apostle Paul wrote Hebrews... Eusebius believed that Paul wrote it, but Origen was not positive of Pauline authorship.”



Is this how we define “inspired by God”?

As seen in chapter one, St. Paul and his church after him, were responsible of making wholesale changes to the religion of Jesus (pbuh) after his departure and were further responsible for mounting a massive campaign of death and torture of all Christians who refused to renounce the teachings of the apostles in favor of the Pauline doctrines. All but the Gospels acceptable to the Pauline faith were then systematically destroyed or re-written. Rev. Charles Anderson Scott has the following to say:

“It is highly probable that not one of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) was in existence in the form which we have it, prior to the death of Paul. And were the documents to be taken in strict order of chronology, the Pauline Epistles would come before the synoptic Gospels.”

This statement is further confirmed by Prof. Brandon: “The earliest Christian writings that have been preserved for us are the letters of the apostle Paul”

In the latter part of the second century, Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth says:

“As the brethren desired me to write epistles (letters), I did so, and these the apostles of the devil have filled with tares (undesirable elements), exchanging some things and adding others, for whom there is a woe reserved. It is not therefore, a matter of wonder if some have also attempted to adulterate the sacred writings of the Lord, since they have attempted the same in other works that are not to be compared with these.”

The Quran confirms this with the words:

“Then woe to those who write the book (of Allah/God) with their own hands and then say: ‘This is from Allah’, to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby.” (Quran 2:79)

Victor Tununensis, a sixth century African Bishop related in his Chronicle (566 AD) that when Messala was consul at Costantinople (506 AD), he “censored and corrected” the Gentile Gospels written by persons considered illiterate by the Emperor Anastasius. The implication was that they were altered to conform to sixth century Christianity which differed from the Christianity of previous centuries.

These “corrections” were by no means confined to the first centuries after Christ. Sir Higgins says:

“It is impossible to deny that the Bendictine Monks of St. Maur, as far as Latin and Greek language went, were very learned and talented, as well as numerous body of men. In Cleland’s ‘Life of Lanfranc, Archbishop of Canterbury’, is the following passage: ‘Lanfranc, a Benedictine Monk, Archbishop of Canterbury, having found the Scriptures much corrupted by copyists, applied himself to correct them, as also the writings of the fathers, agreeably to the orthodox faith, secundum fidem orthodoxam.”

In other words, the Christian scriptures were re-written in order to conform to the doctrines of the eleventh and twelfth centuries, and even the writings of the early church fathers were “corrected” so that the changes would not be discovered. Sir Higgins goes on to say, “The same Protestant divine has this remarkable passage: ‘Impartiality exacts from me the confession, that the orthodox have in some places altered the Gospels’.”

The author then goes on to demonstrate how a massive effort was undertaken in Constantinople, Rome, Canterbury, and the Christian world in general in order to “correct” the Gospels and destroy all manuscripts before this period.

Theodore Zahan, illustrated the bitter conflicts within the established churches in Articles of the Apostolic Creed. He points out that the Roman Catholics accuse the Greek Orthodox Church of remodeling the text of the holy scriptures by additions and omissions with both good as well as evil intentions. The Greek Orthodox, on the other hand, accuse the Roman Catholics of straying in many places very far away from the original text. In spite of their differences, they both join forces to condemn the non-conformist Christians of deviating from “the true way” and condemn them as heretics. The heretics in turn condemn the Catholics for having “recoined the truth like forgers.” The author concludes “Do not facts support these accusations?”

14. “And from those who said: ‘We are Christians,’ We took their Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message which was sent to them. Therefore We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

15. O people of the Scripture! Now has Our messenger (Muhammad) come to you, explaining to you much of that which you used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Indeed, there has come to you a light from Allah and a plain Scripture.

16. Wherewith Allah guides him who seeks His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He brings them out of darkness by His will into light, and guides them to a straight path.

17. They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then has the least power against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

18. The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say; Why then does He punish you for your sins? No, you are but mortals of His creating. He forgives whom He will, and punishes whom He will. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the return (of all).

19. O people of the Scripture! Now has Our messenger (Muhammad) come unto you to make things plain after a break in (the series of) the messengers, lest you should say: There came not unto us a messenger of cheer nor any Warner. Now has a messenger of cheer and a Warner come unto you. And Allah is Able to do all things.” (Quran 5:14-19)

St. Augustine himself, a man acknowledged and looked up to by both Protestants and Catholics alike, professed that there were secret doctrines in the Christian religion and that:

“…there were many things true in the Christian religion which it was not convenient for the vulgar [common people] to know, and that some things were false, but convenient for the vulgar to believe in them.”

Sir Higgins admits:

“It is not unfair to suppose that in these withheld truths we have part of the modern Christian mysteries, and I think it will hardly be denied that the church, whose highest authorities held such doctrines, would not scruple to retouch the sacred writings.”

Even the epistles attributed to Paul were not written by him. After years of research, Catholics and Protestants alike agree that of the thirteen epistles attributed to Paul only seven are genuinely his. They are: Romans, 1, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philipians, Philemon, and 1 Thessalonians.

Christian sects are not even agreed on the definition of what exactly is an “inspired” book of God. The Protestants are taught that there are 66 truly “inspired” books in the Bible, while the Catholics have been taught that there are 73 truly “inspired” books, not to mention the many other sects and their “newer” books, such as the Mormons, etc. As we shall see shortly, the very first Christians, for many generations, did not follow either the 66 books of the Protestants, nor the 73 books of the Catholics. Quite the opposite, they believed in books that were, many generations later, “recognized” to be fabrications and apocrypha by a more enlightened age than that of the apostles.
[T]he sun and moon and stars are subservient to His command. Both creation and command belong to Him. Blessed be Allah,
the Lord of all the worlds.
(Qur’an, 7:54)
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
stan  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 389
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote stan Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

Wonder of wonders-

I just found a website that lists 102 clear contradictions found in the quran!


Now the 64 cent question-

Does anyone have a clue why I might make that statement? Hint: I didn't find such a website, though I'm sure one exists, so I didn't say it for the sake of one-upsmanship.



Those 102 contradictions hv been answered long time back

Hint:. I know a site which list 101 contradiction in Quran and i know a site which has answered them :)


Edited by stan - 25 December 2008 at 11:30pm
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4266
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 11:41pm
 
 The Bible has been made pretty transparent. Any scholor is free to charge what he will in criticism of it.
 
 But leaving that aside. Is the Bible so far removed from the truth, that in its present form, it presents a different truth to that held by the early Christians in relation to Jesus nature ? Did they believe he was the Son of God ? Did they believe in the Holy Spirit... Did they believe Jesus was God from God ?
 
 The answer is yes....
 
 No-one claims the Bible is penned by God, yet Muslims would have you believe the Quran was . No Christian believes Jesus wrote the OT..  they never did.
 
 Muslims claim the Quran has never been altered. Very possible.. but its neither here nor there to me personally. Islam holds that Muhammuds companions recorded his words while he was still alive.
 The great thing here though is that, Muhammud kept the ace card up his sleeve by proclaiming to his followers that revelation can be changed ofcourse ... Quite handy.
 
    "When We substitute one revelation for another, - and Allah knows best what He reveals, - they say 'Thou art a forger: But most of them understand not. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth."

    "None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar--Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?....Would you question your Apostle as Moses was questioned of old?" (Suras 16:101 and 2:106,108).

    Why didn't someone shout .. "Yes"...
    And this was accepted as scripture !!!! an all time first in history for God to warn that he may just have second thoughts in regards to revelation.
    Oh way oh why didn't someone shout Yes.
 In other words.. if he blunders along the way, it can be reworked a tad here and there. Brilliant. And yet still even the Quran has its own contradictions, imagine that .
 
 
P.S .. so much for our continuation of our discussion on page 1.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Damo808 - 25 December 2008 at 11:47pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4266
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 11:43pm
Those 102 contradictions hv been answered long time back
 -Stan
 
 Anyone can regurgitate the same explanations to the same contradictions. Thats easy
 
 Whats not easy is accepting the explanations hold any weight.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_truth  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 606
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_truth Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2008 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 The Bible has been made pretty transparent. Any scholor is free to charge what he will in criticism of it.
 
 But leaving that aside. Is the Bible so far removed from the truth, that in its present form, it presents a different truth to that held by the early Christians in relation to Jesus nature ? Did they believe he was the Son of God ? Did they believe in the Holy Spirit... Did they believe Jesus was God from God ?
 
 The answer is yes....
 
Please answer all these questions one by one thank you:
 
Firstly let me get this right! Because of Adam n Eve's sin that Christians claim was NEVER forgiven! All of humanity are born with original sin? But if Jesus died for that original sin to be wiped out that means all of mankind is sinless after the crucification but not before the crucification? And anyone who commits murder and rape are forgiven because Jesus died for their sins?

Why would God send himself to the earth and crucify himself so that his own creations can rid themselves of the original sin?gosh that notion really does not make sense!

A God that created Adam and Eve himself and created them to be weak to their desires and then because they gave in to their desires and sinned then God himself had to lower himself and come to the earth to wipe out the original sin from all his creations and had to suffer a miserable death and then got taken up into heaven and was suddenly alive again! goshh this is unthinkable!

Why would god lower himself and bring himself to the earth when he can put his message and miracles into a normal human being? its the same way why does he need angels when he can do the job himself?

Does any Christian actually understand the essence of god?

A God that needs food to survive otherwise would die of starvation? a God that needs to drink water otherwise would die of dehydration?A God that excretes filthy waste everyday? A God that gets sick, and feels pain and a God thet dies a miserable petty death at the hand of his enemy's?Why on earth would God want to feel what a human feels?Is he not the one with knowledge of all things? This is all way to above him he is too supreme and high to be lowered like this!

How can the almighty supreme most beautiful most high most beneficient,self sufficient lord be thought of in this way?

Give me verses from the Bible that it says that mankind should worship the son Jesus more than the father!

Give me one verse in the Bible that the Trinity is mentioned?

If what the Christians claim that Jesus is God then did Mary give birth to God? Then God come out of a human women(mary) right? If so then is Mary the mother of God and God her son? If she gave birth to God himself then she must be the Mother of god and a God herself!

Give me one verse in the Bible that explains followers of Jesus are called Christians!

Or is all this man made? deviated from original scriptures from various people over the centurys?Who included what they wanted to include and disregarded what they wanted to disregard from the Bible? Why was Mary chastity questioned in the bible? Do you not belive she was pure(virgin)?
[T]he sun and moon and stars are subservient to His command. Both creation and command belong to Him. Blessed be Allah,
the Lord of all the worlds.
(Qur’an, 7:54)
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4266
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2008 at 1:14am
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 The Bible has been made pretty transparent. Any scholor is free to charge what he will in criticism of it.
 
 But leaving that aside. Is the Bible so far removed from the truth, that in its present form, it presents a different truth to that held by the early Christians in relation to Jesus nature ? Did they believe he was the Son of God ? Did they believe in the Holy Spirit... Did they believe Jesus was God from God ?
 
 The answer is yes....
 
Please answer all these questions one by one thank you:
 
Firstly let me get this right! Because of Adam n Eve's sin that Christians claim was NEVER forgiven! All of humanity are born with original sin? But if Jesus died for that original sin to be wiped out that means all of mankind is sinless after the crucification but not before the crucification? And anyone who commits murder and rape are forgiven because Jesus died for their sins?
 
 No... Adam and Eve were forgiven, thats why their seed was promised Salvation. However the stain of sin remained on humanity 
 
 Jesus Crucifixion, was intended to be the perfect sacrifice which would for the first time cleanse sin. However this doesn't mean that sin no longer existed. Jesus being perfect and dying for the sins of others was made eternal High Priest, the only mediator between man and God the Father where-as the earthly high priests of the temple offered up animals to God, though this did not promise Salvation, or remove the stain of sin from men.
 
Why would God send himself to the earth and crucify himself so that his own creations can rid themselves of the original sin?gosh that notion really does not make sense!
 
 To be honest. Fundamentally this is because Muslims view God ( God the Father to Christians) differently from the way Christians view God. Christians view God as their Father. Its a demonstration of how much He is willing to endure us. He accepted our own mortal agonies on our level.
 Personally i think on the story of Abraham, who all monotheist faiths ascribe as the father of the faiths. Way back then, God tested him among all men. He asked Him for the sacrifice of his beloved son, which he was willing to do without question albeit with an almighty heavy heart. Yet God stopped him at the last moment. Could God here have been seeing if man would do for Him what He intended to do for man much later, for he was impressed by Abrahams faith.
 


A God that created Adam and Eve himself and created them to be weak to their desires and then because they gave in to their desires and sinned then God himself had to lower himself and come to the earth to wipe out the original sin from all his creations and had to suffer a miserable death and then got taken up into heaven and was suddenly alive again! goshh this is unthinkable!

 

 Again..unthinkable if by an Islamic understanding of the nature of God.
 
Adam and eve were human, and susceptable to temptation. But they did have freewill. There aren't varying degrees of freewill, its all or nothing, or freewill, or be conditioned you could say. In which case, how would that add any glory to God, having created man in a pre-conditioned state of will.
 
 
Why would god lower himself and bring himself to the earth when he can put his message and miracles into a normal human being? its the same way why does he need angels when he can do the job himself?
 
 
 This again relates to how differently we both view God in nature. Simply put, God does what He does because he loves us as his own , not as expendable objects of little value. 


Does any Christian actually understand the essence of god?

 Does anyone ? We only take from what we hold to be true in scripture and relate to God from that. Muslims do likewise with the Quran, which is why we draw differening perspectives. Either way, each source only gives but a glimmer of God's essence.

 
A God that needs food to survive otherwise would die of starvation? a God that needs to drink water otherwise would die of dehydration?A God that excretes filthy waste everyday? A God that gets sick, and feels pain and a God thet dies a miserable petty death at the hand of his enemy's?Why on earth would God want to feel what a human feels?Is he not the one with knowledge of all things? This is all way to above him he is too supreme and high to be lowered like this!
 
 
 You see... you view God the way all gods have been percieved by man,  in that they are too great to actually interact with man in anyway which would be seen by men as below their status. This is only true of earthly kings and queens, rulers of great dynasties etc. So we automatically project this mythical view onto God, because this is what man has always believed concerning false gods therefore God almighty is just another god in this understanding.
 
 Jesus pre-incarnate was God he emptied Himself of His heavenly glory to take upon man's own burden.
 
 
How can the almighty supreme most beautiful most high most beneficient,self sufficient lord be thought of in this way?
 
 Because only He can carry it off and still leave with with His perfection intact.

Give me verses from the Bible that it says that mankind should worship the son Jesus more than the father!
 
 There are none, therefore we don't.

Give me one verse in the Bible that the Trinity is mentioned?
 
ZZZZZZZZZZZ   There is no mention of the word Trinity in scripture... no-one claims it is. However there are verses which conclude that God consists of three distinct individuals, which coins the phrase Trinity. Though i'm sure you knew that much already, albeit you dis-agree with it.


If what the Christians claim that Jesus is God then did Mary give birth to God? Then God come out of a human women(mary) right? If so then is Mary the mother of God and God her son? If she gave birth to God himself then she must be the Mother of god and a God herself!
 
 
 Grossly oversimplified.
 Mary a Virgin, concieved, unique we agree. Did this occur anywhere else in scripture ? No. So there is clear significance with the child in question here, rather than what Islam teaches was just to show men a mirracle of God's wonder.
  If Jesus was God, then Mary is the Mother of God, in that she bore God in Her womb, and weaned Him on her breast and raised him up into adulthood. This constitutes motherhood. So technically yes, Mary is the Mother of God in that sense. However also unique is that Jesus existed prior to his human conception.  
 


Give me one verse in the Bible that explains followers of Jesus are called Christians!
 
  1 Peter :4
 

Or is all this man made? deviated from original scriptures from various people over the centurys?Who included what they wanted to include and disregarded what they wanted to disregard from the Bible? Why was Mary chastity questioned in the bible? Do you not belive she was pure(virgin)?
 
 Mary's chastity was questioned because she was claiming to be a Virgin... is that not obvious ??? Ofcourse i believe she was an always remained a Virgin
 As regards to the bible and its contents your free judge it as you see fit. However, testemony from the very earliest Christians, the apostals of the apostals themselves bore witness to:
 
1God the Father
 
2 Jesus as the Son of God (God) 
 
3 The Holy Spirit as God
 
4 That Jesus was Crucified and rose again on the third day.
 
 The above issues are the key ones which separate Muslims and Christians. Yet they were intrinsic to the Christian faith prior to the NT even being cannonised.


Edited by Damo808 - 26 December 2008 at 1:16am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Squeegie  
Senior Member
Senior Member

Religion: Christian(Non-Denom.)
Posts: 969
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2008 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by stan

Originally posted by Squeegie

Wonder of wonders-

I just found a website that lists 102 clear contradictions found in the quran!


Now the 64 cent question-

Does anyone have a clue why I might make that statement? Hint: I didn't find such a website, though I'm sure one exists, so I didn't say it for the sake of one-upsmanship.



Those 102 contradictions hv been answered long time back

Hint:. I know a site which list 101 contradiction in Quran and i know a site which has answered them :)


Correct, Stan. There is an answer for every supposed contradiction out there, both for the quran and for the bible. The contradiction game is a pointless one because the adherents of the faith in question knows that the "problems" are only a problem to those who do not wish to believe. Faith is almost as much a matter of the will as it is a gift from God. Therefor, the contradiction game is a waste of time because a person who want s to believe God's record of himself, be it the bible or the quran, will do so regardless of the objections from whoever doesn't want to believe.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
stan  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 389
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote stan Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2008 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

Originally posted by stan

Originally posted by Squeegie

Wonder of wonders-

I just found a website that lists 102 clear contradictions found in the quran!


Now the 64 cent question-

Does anyone have a clue why I might make that statement? Hint: I didn't find such a website, though I'm sure one exists, so I didn't say it for the sake of one-upsmanship.



Those 102 contradictions hv been answered long time back

Hint:. I know a site which list 101 contradiction in Quran and i know a site which has answered them :)


Correct, Stan. There is an answer for every supposed contradiction out there, both for the quran and for the bible. The contradiction game is a pointless one because the adherents of the faith in question knows that the "problems" are only a problem to those who do not wish to believe. Faith is almost as much a matter of the will as it is a gift from God. Therefor, the contradiction game is a waste of time because a person who want s to believe God's record of himself, be it the bible or the quran, will do so regardless of the objections from whoever doesn't want to believe.



Sis i agree with the faith part of urs. If layman like u and me start finding out contradictions then it doesn't hold any weight and it only shows prejudice against each others religion since neither of us are scholars in their own religion let alone the others religion.

But if the scholars of adherent faith agree to it, then one needs to think hard abt it.


No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_truth  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 606
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_truth Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2008 at 11:48pm
[QUOTE=Damo808]
 
 
No... Adam and Eve were forgiven, thats why their seed was promised Salvation. However the stain of sin remained on humanity 
 
So are you suggesting that God couldn't keep Jesus from sin.. he had to be God .. man to be free from sin?

The virgin birth was the reason Jesus is considered to have been born without sin.. since he had no father (earthly) and his mother was found to "be with child".

Jesus did not need to be God to be born sinless..

You know .. there are way too many things God cannot do in Christianity.

Please show me the verse where it says you have to believe Jesus is God to be saved?
 
 Jesus Crucifixion, was intended to be the perfect sacrifice which would for the first time cleanse sin. However this doesn't mean that sin no longer existed. Jesus being perfect and dying for the sins of others was made eternal High Priest, the only mediator between man and God the Father where-as the earthly high priests of the temple offered up animals to God, though this did not promise Salvation, or remove the stain of sin from men.
 

We Muslims agree that GOD Almighty became very upset from Adam and his wife Eve, but He the Almighty then forgave them and gave Adam peace be upon him Divine Revelations, thus Adam became Allah Almighty's first Messenger and Prophet.  We don't believe that who ever came before Jesus will end up in Hell.  Islam didn't start with Muhammad peace be upon him.  No, Islam started with Adam!  So everyone who followed the Message of the Messenger of GOD Almighty that was sent to his people is considered a Muslim and will end up in Paradise God willing.

Christians believe that everyone is born a sinner. Everyone is born condemned and the only way to redeem yourself is that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Is that really fair? I mean you are born condemned from the beginning. So even a poor innocent baby that is newly born is a sinner. If that baby does not redeem itself by putting its faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and dies then the poor baby is condemned to hell. How can you expect a baby that cannot comprehend or think to accept Jesus as its Lord? What if the poor baby dies before it grows up to become able to rationalize and accept a religion. What about a mentally retarded person that cannot think for him self? He is a sinner by nature and will be doomed to Hell for not recognizing Jesus as Lord and Savior simply because his mind cannot!

Unlike Islam, which is a just religion does not teach original sin. Islam teaches that everyone is born pure and it is us who corrupt our selves.

 Islam gives the Muslims time to grow up and be able to use our rationality and reason in order to choose a religion.  What about the madman? Is he also a sinner? According to original sin he is. How can God condemn a madman who cannot use his reason and be able to make a rational decision? Truly this is unjust. Islam does not hold these kind of people accountable. 
 
 No... Adam and Eve were forgiven, thats why their seed was promised Salvation. However the stain of sin remained on humanity 
 
 Jesus Crucifixion, was intended to be the perfect sacrifice which would for the first time cleanse sin. However this doesn't mean that sin no longer existed. Jesus being perfect and dying for the sins of others was made eternal High Priest, the only mediator between man and God the Father where-as the earthly high priests of the temple offered up animals to God, though this did not promise Salvation, or remove the stain of sin from men.
 
This is very illogical indeed. Why does a price have to be paid for? Why can't we just repent and have God forgive us for our sins just like how Jesus taught in Matthew 6:12?

Humans are sinning against God, so God becomes a human being and then punishes himself because of what we did? There is no logic to this what so ever. 

God does not need to become a human being in order to show us how to live. This is why he sends down messengers because that is their job. 

ANTHROPOMORPHISM

a.   God need not take human form to understand human being.

Most of the other religions some time or the other believes in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God take human form. They have a very good logic for it Almighty God is so pure and Holy the he is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings, difficulties feelings etc. of the human being. He does not know how does a person feel when he is hurt or when he is in trouble etc. Therefore in order to set the rules for the human beings. He came down to the earth in the form of a human being. On the face of it, it seems to be a very good logic.

b.   Creator prepares an instruction manual.

Suppose I manufacture a tape recorder. Do I have to become a tape recorder to know what is good or what is bad for the tape recorder? I write an instruction manual. In order to listen to the audiocassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast-forward press the FF. button. Do not drop it from a height it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water it will get spoilt. I write an instruction manual. The dos and don’ts for the machine.

c.   Holy Qur’an is the instruction manual for the human being.

In the similar fashion our lord and creator Allah (SWT) need not come in the form of a human being to know what is good or bad for the human being. He only has to reveal the instruction manual the last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Holy Qur’an.

The dos and don’ts for the human beings is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an.

d.   Allah chooses messengers:

Allah (SWT) need not come down personally for writing the instruction manual. He chooses a man amongst men to deliver the message and communication with him at a higher level through the revelation. Such chosen men are called as messengers and prophets of God.

The real issue here is whether salvation is attained by keeping the law or by the justification by faith in Jesus Christ alone. As an example, Jesus's teaching on the Prodigal Son, who was forgiven because of his repentance. There is no teaching of atonement here!

Many of the best references to support the theology which Christians hold to and support in their conversations are gleaned from the epistles of Paul. Are Paul's letters trustworthy? How can he be given so much authority? Aman who NEVER EVEN SAW JESUS OR MET ANY OF HIS DISCIPLES!WHO WAS HE? His works are clearly and non-authoritative because of the clear unreliablity of who he really was! Think to youreselves! Christianity is not primarily the teachings of Jesus it is mainly the teachings and ammendments and deletions aswell as additions of PAUL! He did'nt even know Jesus or ever met him and why did he completlely change Christianity to suit himself or the way he wanted it to be?What gave him that right?

Christianity was clearly founded by Paul and not by Jesus. Much of what Christians belive was added to later on by Paul and his followers, in direct contradiction to Jesus's teachings!

The Gospels are diametrically opposed to the material found in the letters of Paul.There are clear "contradictions" between that which Jesus taught and what Paul wrote and this proves that the message of Jesus, a true Jewish Pharisee, was not the same as that of Paul's.
 

Paul, however, says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified by a gift. This view of the atonement, they feel, contradicts the teaching of Jesus. But does it?

Pauline doctrine passed to Rome then Bavaria and southern France, up to ireland, Scotland and then we get the Catholic popes who altered Pauline doctrine and merged it with Druid mysticism through King James and later the New Work under the banner of Freemasonry a corrupted version of Hermeticism and the Wisdom of Thoth. This is why all Scottish Rite Mason who know nothing about Masonry posess up to the thrid grade of knowledge then pay off their lords to gain status up to 32 or 33 degrees but still cant figure the Sirius Mystery or the riddle of the Sphinx.
 
ZZZZZZZZZZZ   There is no mention of the word Trinity in scripture... no-one claims it is. However there are verses which conclude that God consists of three distinct individuals, which coins the phrase Trinity. Though i'm sure you knew that much already, albeit you dis-agree with it
 
Oh of course it was made up by Paul who brought in his pagan beliefs!
 
It is a very confusing notion to say the least!

"One may say with one's lips: 'I believe that God is one, and also three'--but no one can believe it, because the words have no sense."
(What is Religion by Leo Tolstoy).

Where in the Bible is Trinity mentioned?

Does any Christian truly understand what the trinity actually is? I have never met anyone who has understood the Trinity. Besides, all that a christian can offer is a false analogy. From this, all they show is the lack of understanding of what the Trinity is suppose to be.

 
I thought the word "Christian" was not known at the time of Jesus and was brought in later!
 
 
Mary's chastity was questioned because she was claiming to be a Virgin... is that not obvious ??? Ofcourse i believe she was an always remained a Virgin
 
Are u telling me that nowhere in the Bible does it state that Mary's chastity was questioned when she bore God and fed God from her breast and raised God up as a child! How could the Bible question the chastity of the mother of God? How could God not protect her from this shame and dishonor?
 
As regards to the bible and its contents your free judge it as you see fit. However, testemony from the very earliest Christians, the apostals of the apostals themselves bore witness to:
 
1God the Father
 
2 Jesus as the Son of God (God) 
 
3 The Holy Spirit as God
 
4 That Jesus was Crucified and rose again on the third day.
 
 The above issues are the key ones which separate Muslims and Christians. Yet they were intrinsic to the Christian faith prior to the NT even being cannonised.
 
Please give me verses from the Bible to back up all these points thank you!
 
With regards to Paul he was not a Pharisee, nor even a Jew, but a gentile proselyte to Judaism. Paul failed in becoming a Pharisee, and so allied himself to the Sadducees and the High Priest, two groups who enjoyed their privileged status under Roman occupation, and so were in conflict with the Pharisees, who wished to be rid of the Roman oppressors.

It was due to a near nervous breakdown that Paul split from this group and formed a new religion, taking ideas such as baptism, the eucharist, christology, the Holy Spirit, and eschatology and melded them with Jewish sacred history, Gnosticism, and the pagan mystery religions.

Jesus taught beliefs which are quite common to Jewish Pharisaical teaching. He was a figure within Judaism and so would not have accepted his own divinity. This is clear from the first three Synoptic gospels, but not John, which was written much later, after the evolution of this theology by the early Christians led by Paul.

Jesus never regarded himself as a sacrifice for humanity, a belief which Maccoby contends arose after his death, as it was not part of Jewish theology.

Creating a divine character for Jesus has Jewish roots. Elijah and Enoch were both taken up to heaven, which transcended other human experiences. This well- known Biblical event could be the stepping stone to the belief of the divinity of a person who then takes on the divine qualities of God.

There is no root in Judaism, however, for the sacrifice of the divine figure. Jews never worshipped the allegorical concept of God's divine wisdom as found in the book of Proverbs. And nowhere did Jesus ever make a claim of deity, calling himself instead the Messiah, a title which was political and which was quite common in those days. In fact, much of Jesus's teachings were also political in nature, and it was for this reason that the Jews wanted to put him to death. Those passages which do point to Jesus' spiritual nature were added later by Paul and his disciples.

Jesus did not wish to abrogate Judaism, but was only in conflict with certain Jewish figures, which is normal within Jewish circles. He neither abrogated the Torah nor reformed it, but interpreted it, and in ways not unlike the Pharisees. For instance, curing sick people on the sabbath is not forbidden by the Mishnah nor the Talmud, which are both Pharisaic writings.

The ideas attributed to Jesus would have appalled him, had he known about them, therefore they could only have been attributed to him after his death. The gospels were written 40 years and later after the death of Jesus, thus there was plenty of time for these theological ideas to evolve within the Christian community.

Belief in Jesus as God.. is NOT part of the Gospel.. the Gospel message is simply that you believe in Him.. and countless verses show this throughout the New Testament.. do a concordance check and see this.
[T]he sun and moon and stars are subservient to His command. Both creation and command belong to Him. Blessed be Allah,
the Lord of all the worlds.
(Qur’an, 7:54)
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_truth  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 606
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_truth Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2008 at 11:56pm

Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity
 
One may ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians’ insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]

 
 
2. The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law 
 
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
[The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]
 
 
3. God Sent Jesus' (pbuh)
 
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:
 
(i) "… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]
 
 
(ii) "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]
 

 
4. Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity
 
Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:

"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’

And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]

Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).
 
 
5.  Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth – a Man Approved of God
 
The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

 
 
6.  The First Commandment is that God is One
 
The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses (pbuh) had said earlier:

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."

This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]

It is striking that the basic teachings of the Church such as Trinity and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various verses of the Bible point to Jesus’ (pbuh) actual mission, which was to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus (pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God.

Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.
 
 
III CONCEPT OF GOD IN OLD TESTAMENT:
 
1. God is One
 
The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (pbuh):

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad".


It is a Hebrew quotation which means:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]

 
 
2. Unity of God in the Book of Isaiah
 
The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah:
   
(i)  "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]
 
   
(ii) "I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45:5]
 
   
(iii) "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]
 

 
3. Old Testament condemns idol worship
 
   
(i)  Old Testament condemns idol worship in the following verses:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]

 
   
(ii) A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:

"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]

 

[T]he sun and moon and stars are subservient to His command. Both creation and command belong to Him. Blessed be Allah,
the Lord of all the worlds.
(Qur’an, 7:54)
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4266
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2008 at 10:01am
 
 
No... Adam and Eve were forgiven, thats why their seed was promised Salvation. However the stain of sin remained on humanity 
 
So are you suggesting that God couldn't keep Jesus from sin.. he had to be God .. man to be free from sin?
 
The virgin birth was the reason Jesus is considered to have been born without sin.. since he had no father (earthly) and his mother was found to "be with child".

Jesus did not need to be God to be born sinless..

You know .. there are way too many things God cannot do in Christianity.

 
 Sorry, but what am i supposed to say to something like that... Because we believe God done things in a certain manner, who are you to say what He willed himself to do or did not. As i said your view of God is different to Christians, we do not put limitations on God, however we don't believe God to be just this figure who sits upon a throne and spits out fury and wrath uopn anyone who suggests anything that would be below Him because of our own narrow interpretation of what God should or should not be.

Please show me the verse where it says you have to believe Jesus is God to be saved?
 
Whether believing Jesus was God or not may or may not have any baring on Salvation, however , to believe He isn't is to deny the testemony of scripture.
 
 John 1-1, Matthew 28:19, Philippians 2:6, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:2-3 are just a few verses which confirm Him as God.

Jesus Crucifixion, was intended to be the perfect sacrifice which would for the first time cleanse sin. However this doesn't mean that sin no longer existed. Jesus being perfect and dying for the sins of others was made eternal High Priest, the only mediator between man and God the Father where-as the earthly high priests of the temple offered up animals to God, though this did not promise Salvation, or remove the stain of sin from men.

 

We Muslims agree that GOD Almighty became very upset from Adam and his wife Eve, but He the Almighty then forgave them and gave Adam peace be upon him Divine Revelations, thus Adam became Allah Almighty's first Messenger and Prophet.  We don't believe that who ever came before Jesus will end up in Hell.  Islam didn't start with Muhammad peace be upon him.  No, Islam started with Adam!  So everyone who followed the Message of the Messenger of GOD Almighty that was sent to his people is considered a Muslim and will end up in Paradise God willing.

  Well thats all very well and i should say rather easy many centuries after revealed scripture for one to make such a claim. Suppose say tomorrow i claimed to have recieved Divine revelation as well as bringing in new religious laws and customs and over some time having gained quite a following then declared that this religion i have established was the original faith of the hebrews... What weight is there to substantiante this rather than my own word and those that follow me ?
 
 
Christians believe that everyone is born a sinner. Everyone is born condemned and the only way to redeem yourself is that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Is that really fair? I mean you are born condemned from the beginning. So even a poor innocent baby that is newly born is a sinner. If that baby does not redeem itself by putting its faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and dies then the poor baby is condemned to hell. How can you expect a baby that cannot comprehend or think to accept Jesus as its Lord? What if the poor baby dies before it grows up to become able to rationalize and accept a religion. What about a mentally retarded person that cannot think for him self? He is a sinner by nature and will be doomed to Hell for not recognizing Jesus as Lord and Savior simply because his mind cannot!
 
 
 I'm sorry, but that is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. The church teaches that ultimately Jesus is the Saviour of man. But if one is innocently ignorant of such a teaching, be they a child, or an adult then they have no guilt upon them. One is judged on by what they interpret as Truth, and by the intentions of the heart. Those who existed before Christ, did not go to Hell ( eternal damnation) but to somewhere outside heaven and the earthly realm until Salvation through Christ. Where He would judge both the dead , and eventually the living at the end of time.
 
 
Unlike Islam, which is a just religion does not teach original sin. Islam teaches that everyone is born pure and it is us who corrupt ourselves.
 
 You imply Christianity is unjust because we do teach original sin ? If one comes to a conclusion in religion, it doesn't come down to accepting it from whether it is just or unjust, truth is truth if you come to that conclusion.
 
 
 Islam gives the Muslims time to grow up and be able to use our rationality and reason in order to choose a religion.
 
 Depends on what part of Islamic scripture you go by,  "No compulsion" or those judged apostates ? Usually if one is born into Islam, in Islam they will stay perhaps because of devotion, but surely there are some who fear being labelled an apostate and the trials that can bring. Therefore i disagree.
 
What about the madman? Is he also a sinner? According to original sin he is. How can God condemn a madman who cannot use his reason and be able to make a rational decision? Truly this is unjust. Islam does not hold these kind of people accountable. 
 
 And untrue. Again this comes down to that old saying... "ignorance is bliss". God judges everyone individually by what they percieve as truth and their capacity of undertanding.
 
 No... Adam and Eve were forgiven, thats why their seed was promised Salvation. However the stain of sin remained on humanity 
 
 Jesus Crucifixion, was intended to be the perfect sacrifice which would for the first time cleanse sin. However this doesn't mean that sin no longer existed. Jesus being perfect and dying for the sins of others was made eternal High Priest, the only mediator between man and God the Father where-as the earthly high priests of the temple offered up animals to God, though this did not promise Salvation, or remove the stain of sin from men.
 
This is very illogical indeed. Why does a price have to be paid for? Why can't we just repent and have God forgive us for our sins just like how Jesus taught in Matthew 6:12?
 
 The stain of sin still exists. No-one can enter the kingdom of God until sin has been purged from the soul.

Humans are sinning against God, so God becomes a human being and then punishes himself because of what we did? There is no logic to this what so ever. 

 No he doesn't punish Himself, he allows himself to be delivered into mortal death, whereby only He can destroy death, that is, eternal separation from God "the second death"
 
God does not need to become a human being in order to show us how to live. This is why he sends down messengers because that is their job. 
 
 Thats your interpretation, or belief, but according to Christians this was the purpose of the Messiah. No prophet has the ability to remove the stain of sin from man as they themselves are born into sin, and are incapable of remaining free from it .
 
 
ANTHROPOMORPHISM
a.   God need not take human form to understand human being.

Most of the other religions some time or the other believes in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God take human form. They have a very good logic for it Almighty God is so pure and Holy the he is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings, difficulties feelings etc. of the human being. He does not know how does a person feel when he is hurt or when he is in trouble etc. Therefore in order to set the rules for the human beings. He came down to the earth in the form of a human being. On the face of it, it seems to be a very good logic.

 Then it is you who sets limitations on God, not Christians. But really the above is just one belief separated from the other. And what does the Almighty have in common with false dieties anyway.
 

b.   Creator prepares an instruction manual.

Suppose I manufacture a tape recorder. Do I have to become a tape recorder to know what is good or what is bad for the tape recorder? I write an instruction manual. In order to listen to the audiocassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast-forward press the FF. button. Do not drop it from a height it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water it will get spoilt. I write an instruction manual. The dos and don’ts for the machine.

c.   Holy Qur’an is the instruction manual for the human being.

In the similar fashion our lord and creator Allah (SWT) need not come in the form of a human being to know what is good or bad for the human being. He only has to reveal the instruction manual the last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Holy Qur’an.

The dos and don’ts for the human beings is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an.

d.   Allah chooses messengers:

Allah (SWT) need not come down personally for writing the instruction manual. He chooses a man amongst men to deliver the message and communication with him at a higher level through the revelation. Such chosen men are called as messengers and prophets of God.

The real issue here is whether salvation is attained by keeping the law or by the justification by faith in Jesus Christ alone. As an example, Jesus's teaching on the Prodigal Son, who was forgiven because of his repentance. There is no teaching of atonement here!

Many of the best references to support the theology which Christians hold to and support in their conversations are gleaned from the epistles of Paul. Are Paul's letters trustworthy? How can he be given so much authority? Aman who NEVER EVEN SAW JESUS OR MET ANY OF HIS DISCIPLES!WHO WAS HE? His works are clearly and non-authoritative because of the clear unreliablity of who he really was! Think to youreselves! Christianity is not primarily the teachings of Jesus it is mainly the teachings and ammendments and deletions aswell as additions of PAUL! He did'nt even know Jesus or ever met him and why did he completlely change Christianity to suit himself or the way he wanted it to be?What gave him that right?
 
 Christianity was clearly founded by Paul and not by Jesus. Much of what Christians belive was added to later on by Paul and his followers, in direct contradiction to Jesus's teachings!
The Gospels are diametrically opposed to the material found in the letters of Paul.There are clear "contradictions" between that which Jesus taught and what Paul wrote and this proves that the message of Jesus, a true Jewish Pharisee, was not the same as that of Paul's.
 

Paul, however, says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified by a gift. This view of the atonement, they feel, contradicts the teaching of Jesus. But does it?

Pauline doctrine passed to Rome then Bavaria and southern France, up to ireland, Scotland and then we get the Catholic popes who altered Pauline doctrine and merged it with Druid mysticism through King James and later the New Work under the banner of Freemasonry a corrupted version of Hermeticism and the Wisdom of Thoth. This is why all Scottish Rite Mason who know nothing about Masonry posess up to the thrid grade of knowledge then pay off their lords to gain status up to 32 or 33 degrees but still cant figure the Sirius Mystery or the riddle of the Sphinx.

About your tape recorder, i can see your analogy, but were talking about what Christians believe is God and His children, whom we beieve He loves and cherishes. As for Paul we don't soley depend on Pauls letters, the very earliest Christian Fathers, the apostals of John the Evangelist for example Justin martyr confirms Jesus as God -Son of God, the Holy Spirit as  distinct individual being but god also, and of course the God the Father. And that Jesus died and resurrected  after three days. the central tenants of the Faith.

 


 
ZZZZZZZZZZZ   There is no mention of the word Trinity in scripture... no-one claims it is. However there are verses which conclude that God consists of three distinct individuals, which coins the phrase Trinity. Though i'm sure you knew that much already, albeit you dis-agree with it
 
Oh of course it was made up by Paul who brought in his pagan beliefs!
 
It is a very confusing notion to say the least!

"One may say with one's lips: 'I believe that God is one, and also three'--but no one can believe it, because the words have no sense."
(What is Religion by Leo Tolstoy).

Where in the Bible is Trinity mentioned?

Does any Christian truly understand what the trinity actually is? I have never met anyone who has understood the Trinity. Besides, all that a christian can offer is a false analogy. From this, all they show is the lack of understanding of what the Trinity is suppose to be.

 
I thought the word "Christian" was not known at the time of Jesus and was brought in later!
 
 Whats's the big deal in the term "Christianity" it only denotes followers of Christ... Is there any mention of the word Islam in the OT  ? No, yet you claim it always existed. Can you see how petty the claims you make are ? As for the Trinity, Christians simply acknowlege it as Truth, they don't claim to know the whole intrinsic nature of it, much the same as no-one has seen the face of God, but they know some things from scripture about His Essence.
 
 
Mary's chastity was questioned because she was claiming to be a Virgin... is that not obvious ??? Ofcourse i believe she was an always remained a Virgin
 
Are u telling me that nowhere in the Bible does it state that Mary's chastity was questioned when she bore God and fed God from her breast and raised God up as a child! How could the Bible question the chastity of the mother of God? How could God not protect her from this shame and dishonor?
 
 No i'm not telling you that, you must have mis-read my statement. The Bible mentions the account of what happened , that others questioned Her virginity as would be expected. The bible confirms Her Virginity , it does not deny it. Perhaps you should read the account in Mathew.
 
As regards to the bible and its contents your free judge it as you see fit. However, testemony from the very earliest Christians, the apostals of the apostals themselves bore witness to:
 
1God the Father
 
2 Jesus as the Son of God (God) 
 
3 The Holy Spirit as God
 
4 That Jesus was Crucified and rose again on the third day.
 
 The above issues are the key ones which separate Muslims and Christians. Yet they were intrinsic to the Christian faith prior to the NT even being cannonised.
 
Please give me verses from the Bible to back up all these points thank you!
 
 Did you understand my last point ? I said, that even beyond the claims of the above which are in the Bible anyway. The earliest Christian fathers confirmed the above points in their writting. And they had nothing to do with St Paul.
 
With regards to Paul he was not a Pharisee, nor even a Jew, but a gentile proselyte to Judaism. Paul failed in becoming a Pharisee, and so allied himself to the Sadducees and the High Priest, two groups who enjoyed their privileged status under Roman occupation, and so were in conflict with the Pharisees, who wished to be rid of the Roman oppressors.
 
And the proof of this is ..... where ?

It was due to a near nervous breakdown that Paul split from this group and formed a new religion, taking ideas such as baptism, the eucharist, christology, the Holy Spirit, and eschatology and melded them with Jewish sacred history, Gnosticism, and the pagan mystery religions.

Jesus taught beliefs which are quite common to Jewish Pharisaical teaching. He was a figure within Judaism and so would not have accepted his own divinity. This is clear from the first three Synoptic gospels, but not John, which was written much later, after the evolution of this theology by the early Christians led by Paul.

Jesus never regarded himself as a sacrifice for humanity, a belief which Maccoby contends arose after his death, as it was not part of Jewish theology.

Creating a divine character for Jesus has Jewish roots. Elijah and Enoch were both taken up to heaven, which transcended other human experiences. This well- known Biblical event could be the stepping stone to the belief of the divinity of a person who then takes on the divine qualities of God.

There is no root in Judaism, however, for the sacrifice of the divine figure. Jews never worshipped the allegorical concept of God's divine wisdom as found in the book of Proverbs. And nowhere did Jesus ever make a claim of deity, calling himself instead the Messiah, a title which was political and which was quite common in those days. In fact, much of Jesus's teachings were also political in nature, and it was for this reason that the Jews wanted to put him to death. Those passages which do point to Jesus' spiritual nature were added later by Paul and his disciples.

 
Jesus did not wish to abrogate Judaism, but was only in conflict with certain Jewish figures, which is normal within Jewish circles. He neither abrogated the Torah nor reformed it, but interpreted it, and in ways not unlike the Pharisees. For instance, curing sick people on the sabbath is not forbidden by the Mishnah nor the Talmud, which are both Pharisaic writings.

The ideas attributed to Jesus would have appalled him, had he known about them, therefore they could only have been attributed to him after his death. The gospels were written 40 years and later after the death of Jesus, thus there was plenty of time for these theological ideas to evolve within the Christian community.

Belief in Jesus as God.. is NOT part of the Gospel.. the Gospel message is simply that you believe in Him.. and countless verses show this throughout the New Testament.. do a concordance check and see this.
 
Again... much of what you say above has already been addressed. What you said may have had more credance , if we did not have the weight of testemony from the earliest sources in Christianity, the first fathers of the Church, who were themselves apostals of the apostals while they yet lived. Those who DID NOT belong to Paul.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 4 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.