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Ben Masada  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ben Masada Replybullet Topic: The Mark of the Beast
    Posted: 22 March 2009 at 7:06am
 

The Mark of the Beast

Christians, especially Protestants, and among them, the Seventh-Day Adventists in particular, enjoy to talk about the mark of the Beast; and with fantastic definitions, that only make a ridiculous picture
of themselves. Then, they charge each other with the potential to
get the mark of the Beast. They think of almost everything but the
real thing, which is given by the NT itself.

The mark of the Beast appears in conjunction with the Antichrist.
Morphologically, the term Antichrist is composed of two words: Anti
and Christ. Anti means to stand against or to contradict. Christ
means what Christians believe Jesus was. So, what stands against
Christ is only obvious that it means the Antichrist.

According to Matthew 5:17, Jesus declared that he had not come to abolish the Jewish laws. Then, 30 years later, Paul came and said
that what Jesus said was not true, but rather that the Jewish laws
were abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15)

As we can see, Paul stood against what Jesus said by contradicting
his words about his purpose regarding the Jewish laws. If Jesus was
indeed Christ, as Christians believe he was, it's only obvious that
Paul acted as the Antichrist.

Now, where did Paul say the Jewish laws were abolished? On the cross. And what did the cross mean to him? "God forbid," he said, "that I should glory in anything save in the cross." The cross meant the glory of Paul. (Gal. 6:14)

Now, we have the mark of the Beast: The cross, a symbol of shame and a curse to the Anointed of the Lord, who, in the words of Habakkuk 3:13, is the People of Israel, the Jewish People.

Now, your comments are welcome.

Ben.



Edited by Ben Masada - 22 March 2009 at 7:07am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Giovanni Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2009 at 7:51am
Originally posted by Ben Masada

 

The Mark of the Beast

Christians, especially Protestants, and among them, the Seventh-Day Adventists in particular, enjoy to talk about the mark of the Beast; and with fantastic definitions, that only make a ridiculous picture
of themselves. Then, they charge each other with the potential to
get the mark of the Beast. They think of almost everything but the
real thing, which is given by the NT itself.

The mark of the Beast appears in conjunction with the Antichrist.
Morphologically, the term Antichrist is composed of two words: Anti
and Christ. Anti means to stand against or to contradict. Christ
means what Christians believe Jesus was. So, what stands against
Christ is only obvious that it means the Antichrist.

According to Matthew 5:17, Jesus declared that he had not come to abolish the Jewish laws. Then, 30 years later, Paul came and said
that what Jesus said was not true, but rather that the Jewish laws
were abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15)

As we can see, Paul stood against what Jesus said by contradicting
his words about his purpose regarding the Jewish laws. If Jesus was
indeed Christ, as Christians believe he was, it's only obvious that
Paul acted as the Antichrist.

Now, where did Paul say the Jewish laws were abolished? On the cross. And what did the cross mean to him? "God forbid," he said, "that I should glory in anything save in the cross." The cross meant the glory of Paul. (Gal. 6:14)

Now, we have the mark of the Beast: The cross, a symbol of shame and a curse to the Anointed of the Lord, who, in the words of Habakkuk 3:13, is the People of Israel, the Jewish People.

Now, your comments are welcome.

Ben.



  I have to admit, you should invest your time also in writing novels and fiction books, now that is a compliment.
  I think you are a pretty bright individual, but you lack understanding of the Christian faith, for which I can see just how you would say something as the above.

  Paul was correct in what he said, because Paul was talking about the laws that separates Jews from gentiles.  Jesus abolished the laws established by the Jews, for gentiles like Jews did not need the Jewish laws to please God, thus uniting Jews and gentiles together in Christ.
 As far as the cross being the mark of the beast, you really went out on a limb to come up with this one.  In a way I can see where you are coming from, based on how you built your point, but the cross is how Jesus redeemed us all so we may have eternal life. But again I can see your point, the cross after all is where they killed the Messiah, though He should have been dead even before they crucified Him, but that is another topic. 

May the Love of God be With you.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2009 at 5:00pm

.... You really do despise the Christian view of Jesus don't you Ben.

 
  I go with Gio on this one. What i don't get is.... how you actually believe half of what your saying yourself, or are throwing yourself at any theory  or theology so long as it in someway throws ambiguity on the intentions of those individuals fundamental to the history of our Christian faith.. a view fostered by fundamentalists who look for ambiguity relentlessly until they see it where doesn't exist or at least see it in the most extremely unlikely places.
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Ben Masada

Now, we have the mark of the Beast: The cross, a symbol of shame and a curse to the Anointed of the Lord, who, in the words of Habakkuk 3:13, is the People of Israel, the Jewish People.  Now, your comments are welcome.  Ben.


I'd like to address this last statement first.

The Cross is not the symbol of the Beast.

Even though I am a Christian....we do not use the cross as the symbol of being a believer of Christ.  Our symbol of being a believer of Christ....is our personal conduct.  It is about applying his example into our lives... by doing the things that he did....not by placing a sign around our necks.  This to us....only symbolizes...faith without works....which is dead.  We of course realize that there are true believers in Christ in all religions....and by their fruits....we shall know them.


  1.   14 aWhat doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath bfaith, and have not works? can faith save him?
          •  •  •
      17 Even so afaith, if it hath not bworks, is dead, being alone.
      18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my afaith by my bworks.
          •  •  •
      20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that afaith without bworks is dead?
          •  •  •
      22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by aworks was faith made bperfect?
          •  •  •
      24 Ye see then how that by aworks a man is bjustified, and not by faith only.
          •  •  •
      26 For as the body without the aspirit is bdead, so faith without cworks is dead also.

Speaking of crosses...
Personally the sign of the cross is insulting to me.  (I realize that those that wear this sign....do so out of their love and devotion to Jesus Christ).  However, nonetheless this symbol hurts and offends me.  To me it is not a healthy depiction of remembering someone so beloved.

If I had a brother who saved me and then was killed himself by a gun....and out of my devotion to him...I wore an emblem of a gun around my neck....I would be focused against the ones who used this weapon...instead of for my brother....who forgave them what they did.  God will forgive whom he will forgive...but for me....it is required to forgive all men.

If I walked around with this sign around my neck....would I be in my right mind to remember my beloved in a healthy way?  No  My love for Christ is greater than the love I place on his death, he means more to me than what he did for me.  Hanging a sign around our necks is not what Jesus is asking us to do....in fact he is asking much more of us than this.

 
  1.   38 And he that taketh not his across, and followeth after me, is not bworthy of me.
  2.   24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him adeny himself, and take up his bcross, and cfollow me.
  3.   21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and agive to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and bfollow me.
  4.   23 ¶ And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his across daily, and bfollow me.
  5.   27 And whosoever doth not bear his across, and come after me, cannot be my bdisciple.
  6.   8 And being found in afashion as a man, he bhumbled himself, and became cobedient unto ddeath, even the edeath of the cross.
  7.   17 Brethren, be afollowers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an bensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose aend is destruction, whose God is their belly, band whose glory is in their cshame, who mind earthly things.)

When Jesus says to "take up your cross" and follow me---he is telling us to pick-up whatever burdens we have and do as he did.  To follow after him....to become like him.


After reading these verses....do you really think....that Jesus is asking us to wear a sign around our necks?  That is not what he is telling us.  Faith is a principle of ACTION.  Jesus is telling us to walk in his footsteps...and do as he did....to pattern our lives after HIS.  He didn't wear a sign around his neck.


So as a Jew....you won't be offended in our churches....for we do not hang this sign in the front of our chapel as the focal point.  We do not worship a dead or dying Jesus.....the good news of the gospel is that HE LIVES!!  That is our central focus....he bridged the gap between life and death as well as heaven and hell.  Because of his ATONEMENT....we too have the opportunity to return back to heaven....if we follow the path that leads there.  Christ being the Exemplar who shows us the way.

John 14:1-6
  1 Let not your heart be atroubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
  2 In my Father’s ahouse are many bmansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
  3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will acome again, and receive you unto myself; that bwhere cI am, there ye may be also.
  4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
  5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
  6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the btruth, and the life: no man ccometh unto the Father, but by me.












Edited by Janet Waters - 23 March 2009 at 2:20pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 23 March 2009 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Ben Masada

The Mark of the Beast.  Christians, especially Protestants, and among them, the Seventh-Day Adventists in particular, enjoy to talk about the mark of the Beast; and with fantastic definitions, that only make a ridiculous pictureof themselves. Then, they charge each other with the potential to get the mark of the Beast. They think of almost everything but the real thing, which is given by the NT itself.   The mark of the Beast appears in conjunction with the Antichrist.  Morphologically, the term Antichrist is composed of two words: Antiand Christ. Anti means to stand against or to contradict. Christ means what Christians believe Jesus was. So, what stands against Christ is only obvious that it means the Antichrist.

There are those who are anti-church....meaning that they do not believe in organized religion (but they practice their own belief system).

There are those who partake of the spirit of the anti-Christ.  Meaning that they are of the opinion that Christ didn't exist or that he was not the Messiah.  For whatever reason, their present belief teaches something different.

But there again there is THE ANTI-CHRIST.  The Anti-Christ is actually someone who professes to be THE CHRIST on the outside....while on the inside is very much against Christ and all that he stood for.  Who is all the while working to destroy everything that Christ set up.  This is the Great Deceiver. Satan is the Master Deceiver...and anyone that follows after him....choosing to do his bidding....can also be referred to by this term....whether they are sane or not.

Paul did not profess to be THE CHRIST and he didn't secretly try to fight against Christ....but he worked towards building up that which Christ taught.  Even though by the time of Paul, Jesus had already ascended to his Father---Jesus was still at the helm.  He was leading his Church that he set up.  He promised his apostles that he would send the Spirit of Truth to lead them in how they were to direct the kingdom and what to preach to the people.  Paul was acting under the direction of Peter, James, and John.

  1.   17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
  2.   26 But when the aComforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall btestify of me:
  3.   13 Howbeit when he, the aSpirit of truth, is come, he will bguide you into all ctruth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will dshew you things to come.





Edited by Janet Waters - 23 March 2009 at 12:13pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 23 March 2009 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Ben Masada

According to Matthew 5:17, Jesus declared that he had not come to abolish the Jewish laws. Then, 30 years later, Paul came and said that what Jesus said was not true, but rather that the Jewish laws were abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15)


As we can see, Paul stood against what Jesus said by contradicting
his words about his purpose regarding the Jewish laws. If Jesus was
indeed Christ, as Christians believe he was, it's only obvious that
Paul acted as the Antichrist.

Now, where did Paul say the Jewish laws were abolished? On the cross. And what did the cross mean to him? "God forbid," he said, "that I should glory in anything save in the cross." The cross meant the glory of Paul. (Gal. 6:14)

I don't know what you are talking about....I am not seeing that Paul taught something in opposition to Christ.  You are only interpreting Paul to say something in opposition to Christ. 

Matthew is quoting Jesus saying that the LAW of Moses would all be fulfilled (Jesus was the fulfillment) that not one jot nor one tittle shall not pass from the law until all be fulfilled.

  1.   17 ¶ Think not that I am come to adestroy the blaw, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the alaw, till all be bfulfilled

First I need to explain something.....The Law of Moses was a preparatory gospel, to prepare Israel for Christ who would restore back the FULL LAW that was known to the Great Patriarchs.  The Law of Moses contained the letter of the law and the Gospel of Christ contained (and restored) the spirit of the Law (from which it was designed in the first place). 

The Law of Moses was the OUTWARD performance (the Letter of the Law) and the Gospel of Christ was the INWARD performance (the Spirit of the Law) which caused a person to be true blue through and through.
  Hence the sign of circumcision on the outside was replaced with the sign of circumcision on the inside.  For the Law of Circumcision was an eternal covenant that God made with his covenant people and HE expected them to adhere to it.

  10 This is my acovenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be bcircumcised.


  1.   27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
      29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and acircumcision is that of the heart, in the bspirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
  2.   6 But now we are adelivered from the law, that being bdead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of cspirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
  3.   6 Who also hath made us able aministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the bspirit giveth life.

The Prophet Abinadi explained this well when he said:


Mosiah 13:27-31

 
27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should akeep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall bno more be expedient to keep the law of Moses (the performances of the law).
  28 And moreover, I say unto you, that asalvation doth not come by the blaw alone; and were it not for the catonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.
  29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very astrict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, bquick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;
  30 Therefore there was a alaw given them, yea, a law of performances and of bordinances , a law which they were to cobserve strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.
  31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were atypes of things to come.

The Law of Moses was the law that convicted us unto death...it demanded JUSTICE...it exacted the death penalty.  The Gospel of Christ brought about....Mercy so that all would not be convicted unto Death (hell).  For no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God, but Christ made it possible that we could repent and the demands of justice be swallowed up IN HIM...allowing Mercy as well.

Christ abolished (blotted out) in his flesh the enmity (hell/death/devil) that all men were constrained by...which convicted all to pay that penalty.  Without Christ....there would be no salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven....for all would be partakers of this endless woe.
  1.   11 Yea, and if it had not been for his matchless power, and his mercy, and his along-suffering towards us, we should unavoidably have been cut off from the face of the earth long before this period of time, and perhaps been consigned to a state of bendless misery and woe.
  2.   6 Who also hath made us able aministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the bspirit giveth life.
  3.   15 Having aabolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in bordinances; for to make in himself of twain one cnew man, so making peace;
      16 And that he might areconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
  4.   14 aBlotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
  5.   14 aForasmuch then as the children are partakers of bflesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might cdestroy him that had the power of ddeath, that is, the edevil;
  6.   12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer apersecution for the cross of Christ.
      13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
       14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 
      15 For in Christ Jesus neither acircumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


Edited by Janet Waters - 23 March 2009 at 12:41pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 23 March 2009 at 1:14pm
  1.   17 Brethren, be afollowers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an bensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose aend is destruction, whose God is their belly, band whose glory is in their cshame, who mind earthly things.)
Concerning this mark................all will have either the mark of the beast or the mark of God upon their foreheads and hands.


MARK of BEAST:

  1.   16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
      17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
  2.   9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
          •  •  •
      11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
  3.   2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a anoisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
  4.   17 Now I beseech you, brethren, amark them which cause bdivisions and coffences contrary to the ddoctrine which ye have learned; and eavoid them.

MARK/SEAL of GOD:

  1.   5 And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
  2. Rev. 7: 2-3   2 And I saw another angel aascending from the east, having the bseal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, aHurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have bsealed the cservants of our God in their foreheads.
  3. Rev. 9: 4
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those amen which have not the bseal of God in their foreheads.
  4.   9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel aascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
      A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of bIsrael; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their cforeheads. And, if you will receive it, this is dElias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and erestore all things.
Elijah the prophet would be the 2nd Elias that would restore the SEALING KEYS...by which temple ordinances are performed.  Those who are sealed up and "marked as HIS"...do so through temple covenant.  If this not be done before the 2nd Coming of our LORD, the whole earth would be wasted by HIS coming.

  1.   5 ¶ Behold, I will asend you bElijah the prophet cbefore the coming of the dgreat and dreadful eday of the Lord:  6 And he shall aturnbheart of the cfathers to the dchildren, and the heart of the echildren to their fathers, lest I come and fsmite the gearth with a hcurse. the
  2.   1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of aElijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and bdreadful day of the Lord.
      2 And ahe shall plant in the hearts of the children the bpromises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
      3 If it were not so, the whole aearth would be utterly wasted at his coming.
  3.   9 And also aElijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the bfathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a ccurse10 And also with Joseph and aJacob, and bIsaac, and Abraham, your cfathers, by whom the dpromises remain;
      11 And also with Michael, or aAdam, the father of all, the prince of all, the bancient of days;
      12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have aordained you and confirmed you to be bapostles, and especial cwitnesses of my dname, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
      13 Unto whom I have acommitted the bkeys of my kingdom, and a cdispensation of the dgospel for the elast times; and for the ffulness of times, in the which I will gather together in gone all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;



Edited by Janet Waters - 23 March 2009 at 1:25pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ben Masada Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2009 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters



  1.  
  [quote]If this not be done before the 2nd Coming of our LORD, the whole earth would be wasted by HIS coming.
 
 
Ben: Jesus died, and according to the Scriptures, he will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun. (Eccle.9:6)

Ben:



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ben Masada Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2009 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by Ben Masada

I don't know what you are talking about....I am not seeing that Paul taught something in opposition to Christ.  You are only interpreting Paul to say something in opposition to Christ. 

 Ben: Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish any of the Jewish laws, and Paul says that's not true; that the Jewish laws were abolished on the cross, and Janet Waters does not see any opposition in this contradiction. No wonder!

Matthew is quoting Jesus saying that the LAW of Moses would all be fulfilled (Jesus was the fulfillment) that not one jot nor one tittle shall not pass from the law until all be fulfilled.

Ben: Christians never fail when it comes to Matthew 5:17-19. They are too ready to speak to the four corners of the world about verses 17 and 18, and always to hide verse 19. Why? Because verse 19 is the key to Jesus' mission. To confirm ALL the Jewish laws down to the dot of the letter for everyone to do as he did: To observe and to teach them without the slightest change.

 
[quote]The Law of Moses was the law that convicted us unto death...it demanded JUSTICE...it exacted the death penalty.  The Gospel of Christ brought about....Mercy so that all would not be convicted unto Death (hell).  For no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God, but Christ made it possible that we could repent and the demands of justice be swallowed up IN HIM...allowing Mercy as well.

Ben: The purpose of the Law is not to convict anyone but to show where one has transgressed. The penalty for any transgression is not caused by the Law but by our own bad behavior. What did you want, to steal something from someone and not to pay for it? Nice try!  What do you mean that with Christ we can repent and not pay for what we did? Another nice try, but this can be anything but true. Long before Jesus, Isaiah already said that to set things right with God, we must repent and obey. (Isa. 1:18,19)

[quote]Christ abolished (blotted out) in his flesh the enmity (hell/death/devil) that all men were constrained by...which convicted all to pay that penalty. 
 
Ben: Since you don't have a quotation for the above, you are acting like the Antichrist by contradicting what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, that he had not come to abolish any of the Jewish laws. If you believe that Jesus was Christ, and you are contradicting what he said, I am sorry but there is no other name to remind me but Antichrist.

Ben:
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ben Masada Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2009 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

[QUOTE=Ben Masada]

 

Paul did not profess to be THE CHRIST and he didn't secretly try to fight against Christ....but he worked towards building up that which Christ taught.  

I think he did albeit by proxy. He was too cunny. He knew from others who claimed to be the Messiah and failed, if he claimed openly to be the Messiah, he would fail likewise.

Therefore, he used Jesus, only as long as he built his Church. However, he did not build what Jesus had taught. That was for the Nazarenes to do. These constituted a Jewish sect organized by his Apostles. 
 
The converts of the followers of Jesus would become staunch defenders of the Jewish laws. Paul, on the contrary, would teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and to renounce the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:20,21)Definitely, this does not mean to build what Jesus taught.
 
Ben:



Edited by Ben Masada - 27 March 2009 at 1:33pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ben Masada Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2009 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by Ben Masada


I'd like to address this last statement first.

The Cross is not the symbol of the Beast.

Even though I am a Christian....we do not use the cross as the symbol of being a believer of Christ.  Our symbol of being a believer of Christ....is our personal conduct.  It is about applying his example into our lives... by doing the things that he did....not by placing a sign around our necks.  This to us....only symbolizes...faith without works....which is dead.  We of course realize that there are true believers in Christ in all religions....and by their fruits....we shall know them.

Ben: Are you sure that what we need is to apply Jesus' example into our lives? Jesus' Faith was Judaism. Why don't you apply into your life the way he lived? That's what I do not understand when Christians let go these hypothetical statements.


[quote]Speaking of crosses...
Personally the sign of the cross is insulting to me.  (I realize that those that wear this sign....do so out of their love and devotion to Jesus Christ).  However, nonetheless this symbol hurts and offends me.  To me it is not a healthy depiction of remembering someone so beloved.

If I had a brother who saved me and then was killed himself by a gun....and out of my devotion to him...I wore an emblem of a gun around my neck....I would be focused against the ones who used this weapon...instead of for my brother....who forgave them what they did.  God will forgive whom he will forgive...but for me....it is required to forgive all men.

If I walked around with this sign around my neck....would I be in my right mind to remember my beloved in a healthy way?  No  My love for Christ is greater than the love I place on his death, he means more to me than what he did for me.  Hanging a sign around our necks is not what Jesus is asking us to do....in fact he is asking much more of us than this.

Ben: Nice to read the above; but if you ask me, that's not enough only to abhor the curse that the cross represented to all Jews, including Jesus. Much ideal would be to accept the Faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.

[quote]So as a Jew....you won't be offended in our churches....for we do not hang this sign in the front of our chapel as the focal point.  We do not worship a dead or dying Jesus.....the good news of the gospel is that HE LIVES!!  That is our central focus....he bridged the gap between life and death as well as heaven and hell.  Because of his ATONEMENT....we too have the opportunity to return back to heaven....if we follow the path that leads there.  Christ being the Exemplar who shows us the way.

Ben: As I said above, the only way Jesus can be an examplar to anyone who wants sincerely to follow him is by accepting his faith, which was Judaism.

Ben:











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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ben Masada Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2009 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Giovanni

[QUOTE=Ben Masada]
 
 
  Paul was correct in what he said, because Paul was talking about the laws that separates Jews from gentiles.  Jesus abolished the laws established by the Jews, for gentiles like Jews did not need the Jewish laws to please God, thus uniting Jews and gentiles together in Christ.
 As far as the cross being the mark of the beast, you really went out on a limb to come up with this one.  In a way I can see where you are coming from, based on how you built your point, but the cross is how Jesus redeemed us all so we may have eternal life. But again I can see your point, the cross after all is where they killed the Messiah, though He should have been dead even before they crucified Him, but that is another topic. 

 
Yes, but Paul was not dealing with Gentiles but teaching the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and to denounce the Jewis customs. (Acts 21:21)
 
Ben:
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ben Masada Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2009 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Damo808

.... You really do despise the Christian view of Jesus don't you Ben.

 
 
 
No, I don't. I am just defending Judaism. If Jesus was a religious Jew, anything claimed about him that is and was not Jewish, cannot
be true. And only gives a wrong impression about Judaism.
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2009 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

  1. If this not be done before the 2nd Coming of our LORD, the whole earth would be wasted by HIS coming.
 
 
Originally posted by Ben Masada

Jesus died, and according to the Scriptures, he will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun. (Eccle.9:6)Ben:


In Ecclesiastes, it is not talking about physical life and death....it is talking about things that are spiritually descerned.  Those whose minds are carnal cannot perceive or have a knowledge of that which is spiritual--- because their minds have been darkened through unbelief and sin.  To be in the state of unbelief and sin causes one to be in the clutches of death (hell).  To turn from such, through the process of repentance causes one to see that which cannot be perceived in any other way.

  1.   13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
      14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall ahear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 
      15 For this people’s aheart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their beyes they have cclosed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should dheal them.
      16 But blessed are your aeyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
        17 For verily I say unto you, That many aprophets and righteous men have desired to see those things see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.



  1.   17 And I gave my aheart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
  2.   25 I applied mine aheart to know, and to search, and to seek out bwisdom, and the reason of things,and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:  26 And I find more abitter than death thebwoman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the csinner shall be dtaken by her.
  3.   16 ¶ When I applied mine heart to know awisdom, and to see the business that is done upon the earth: (for also there is that neither day nor night seeth sleep with his eyes:)


Ecclesiastes 9:1-6
  1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

  2 All things come alike to all: there is one aevent to the brighteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that csweareth, as he that dfeareth an oath.

  3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the adead.  (Evil in life and evil in death.  After the evil die they go to Spirit Prison located in the Spirit World=another dimension of this earth)

4 ¶ For to him that is joined to all the living there is ahope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. (It is better to be a dog that has spiritual hope and faith--- than to be a lion who is spiritually dead--and knows nothing of hope and faith=dull of hearing and cannot see that which is spiritual).

  5 For the living know that they shall die (and go to the Spirit World): but the dead know not any thing (they don't know about the Spirit World and the prison to which they will go), neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten (they have lost the ability to discern good from evil).

  6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished (in prison=sin/death/hell); neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun (done in the LIGHT=righteousness/heaven).



  1.   14 For we know that the alaw is spiritual: but I am bcarnal, csold under sin.
  2.   14 But the anatural man breceiveth not the things of the cSpirit of God: for they are dfoolishness unto him: neither can he eknow them, because they are fspiritually gdiscerned.
  3.   12 Yea, and this because they shall dwindle in unbelief and fall into the works of darkness, and alasciviousness, and all manner of iniquities; yea, I say unto you, that because they shall sin against so great light and knowledge, yea, I say unto you, that from that day, even the bfourth generation shall not all pass away before this great iniquity shall come.
  4.   15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been ahid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall bcall upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.




Edited by Janet Waters - 27 March 2009 at 5:06pm
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