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Moby1
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bullet Posted: 17 July 2009 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Hello Moby and welcome to the forum
 
When Maria gave a son, she became free
 
This practice was the custom of all people at the time, including God's past prophets, like Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, with Hagar
 
Islam gave a way out from slavery, and the example was set by Prophet Muhammad for the eradication of slavery, which eventually took place as the Qur'an encouraged Muslims to free their slaves
Hi Al,
Thank you for your answer. Are you saying by selling a slave to be someone's property thus the buyer of the slave having sexual relations with the slave makes you free by Islam's standards? I also read that Saudi Arabi had slaves until the 1960's. They are Muslim right? Thank you.
 
Moby


Edited by Moby1 - 17 July 2009 at 4:17pm
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jimdi3  
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bullet Posted: 19 July 2009 at 2:54pm
like Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, with Hagar
 
Hagar was Sarah's slave not Abrahams.
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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cinta_nabillah  
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bullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 1:03am
wasallamualaikum,
 
I know Hagar was Sarah's slave and Sarah permitted his husband, Prophet Abraham to marry Hagar, a coptic girl.
 
Mariah was Hafsa's slave (or servant) and Hafsa did not permit his husband to touch or even to have sex with Mariah, a coptic girl.
 
I can see the similarity of these stories and I also can see the differences between them.
 
Abraham married with Hagar formally and with the permit from his wife. Every body was happy with the decision. Hagar understood that she could hardly gave a child to Abraham and she was happy to have Hagar as her 'substitute'. Hagar was also happy to get better status as Abraham's wife.
And finally Allah bless the whole family. 
 
On the other hand, Hafsa was angry with her husband decision to brake the promise and to make Mariah pregnant and gave birth to Ibrahim (the only son). Unfortunately Ibrahim died at the age of 2.
 
I hope my brothers & sisters in Islam get the wisdom of the stories.
 
Thanks & Regards,
Cinta
   
 
 
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jimdi3  
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bullet Posted: 21 July 2009 at 3:10am
Just a comment ..... Hagar was not a Coptic girl.  (Coptic religion is Christain ......established long after Abraham, even after the coming of the Christ)
 
There was no marriage ....... Sarah encouraged Abraham to enter Hagar as he would a wife. (You need to know the meaning of the original word used in Scripture and why it was used.) Basically the story is a documated surrogacy.


Edited by jimdi3 - 21 July 2009 at 3:12am
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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cinta_nabillah  
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bullet Posted: 26 July 2009 at 8:13pm
wasallamualaikum jimdi3,
 
Thanks for your correction. It's my mistake to assume coptic as egypt area.
 
Btw, Sarah gave permittion thus the relationship between Abraham and Hagar is not adultery or zinah.
 
But when your wife disagreed with your relationship with her servant, then we can call it as zinah.
 
Thanks.
 
 
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2009 at 2:58am
Hello Cinta
 
I agree with your statement below
 
"Btw, Sarah gave permittion thus the relationship between Abraham and Hagar is not adultery or zinah."
 
Sarah in fact encouraged the relationship to conceive a child, see
 
 Genesis Chapter 16
א  וְשָׂרַי אֵשֶׁת אַבְרָם, לֹא יָלְדָה לוֹ; וְלָהּ שִׁפְחָה מִצְרִית, וּשְׁמָהּ הָגָר. 1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bore him no children; and she had a handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
ב  וַתֹּאמֶר שָׂרַי אֶל-אַבְרָם, הִנֵּה-נָא עֲצָרַנִי יְהוָה מִלֶּדֶת--בֹּא-נָא אֶל-שִׁפְחָתִי, אוּלַי אִבָּנֶה מִמֶּנָּה; וַיִּשְׁמַע אַבְרָם, לְקוֹל שָׂרָי. 2 And Sarai said unto Abram: 'Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing; go in, I pray thee, unto my handmaid; it may be that I shall be builded up through her.' And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
 
In pre-Mosaic times, there was also a custom of using a slave girl as a surrogate mother, e.g. Sarah suggesting that Abraham use Hagar to bear children on her behalf (Genesis 16), and echos of it in Jacob bearing children with Leahís maid Zilpah on Leahís behalf (Genesis 30:9 ff.) and with Rachelís maid Bilhah on behalf of Rachel (Genesis 30:3 ff.).
 
 


Edited by jimdi3 - 27 July 2009 at 3:10am
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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cinta_nabillah  
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2009 at 4:11am
wasallamualaikum Jimdi3,
 
Yes, all got permittion from their wives, but when the Prophet had sex with Mariah, he did not get any permittion from Hafsa. The Prophet told a lie and broke his own promise. I assume that it can be categorised as adultery / zinah.
 
Btw, many muslims use and follow the ayat, they said that it is sunnah and cannot be categorised as adultery / zinah. They think that :
a. Muslim can brake his promise, especially promise made to his wives.
b. Muslim can have sex with his 'slaves' (workers).
c. It is halal to rape kafirun females.
d. Ayat/ verses in Al Quran is forever, it is still valid until now. It is the final guidance.
 
I also read the excuses made by the Arabic employers when they raped the Indonesian female workers. The employers said it was not their fault when they "touch" the female workers. They blamed the workers to seduce them, not to wear "proper" muslimah cloth, and moreover there is no witness to tell that the employers raped the workers (*there is at least 4 witnesses). Consequently, the employers are free from any blaming and the female workers are blamed for adultery.
 
For me, this is unfair for the female victims. And I am speechless knowing that the wrong action is supported by the Ayat and the sunnah.
 
I'm wondering whether it is just the misinterpretation or 'real' Allah really allow such an evil doing.
 
Thanks & Regards,
Cinta 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2009 at 11:40am
Cinta, you nailed it in your last post.  It is misinterpretation of the grossest kind...for self serving reasons by selfish men.   You bring many valid points to the table and they deserve recognition and honest discussion, especially by our muslim brothers. 
 
I completely agree with your assessment.  Permission is necessary by any of the involved women for any of these acts to be halal.  If a woman is taken by force, it is rape.  If a man doesn't have permission to have another wife, it is cheating.  The list goes on...  Women need to find their strength again and stop being afraid.  Some things considered sunnah and law do need to be re-examined for the sake of all Islam.
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bullet Posted: 27 July 2009 at 10:37pm
wasallamualaikum Cyra,
 
Thanks for your comment.
Btw, I'm wondering why our muslim brothers took the ayat & sunnah as their life guidelines.
 
They always told me that Al Quran is the final revelation and our best guidelines. If we follow the ayats & the sunnah, we will follow the best creature, our Prophet.
 
But, I strongly disagree that cheating your wife is 'sunnah'. Having sex with your servant is 'sunnah'. Rape kafirun girls is halal and 'sunnah'. Married with small girl (9-year old girl) as 'sunnah'.
 
I'm thinking why merciful & lovely Allah once permit the muslim brothers to rape the jewish females in Kaibar war. Do the muslim brothers & jewish females have the same Allah? Most of the prophets are jewish. Why Allah "hate" jewish so much??? Is Allah worshipped by jewish females (the Khaibar victims) different from Allah worshipped by the muslim brothers???
 
Why the 'real' Allah permit our Prophet to cheat Hafsa? And to break his own promise to not touch Mariah??? Does Allah know that the sunnah & ayat will be followed by our muslim brothers??? Why the bad examples can be our "perfect" guideline ????
 
The bad incidents in our time are following these sunnahs & ayats.
The last week bomb blast in Jakarta was done by our muslim brothers.
The rape of kafirun in Jakarta was done by muslim brothers.
The rape of Indonesian female workers was done by muslim brothers in Saudi Arabia. Most tragic that those incidents cannot be proceed with state law, they said Islamic law (syariah, sunnah & Quran) is higher than the state law.
 
So what's wrong with our religion??? Is Islam for human beings???
or Human beings is for Islam???? Are we all hiding behind the ayats & sunnahs to do the evil works???
 
Thanks & Regards,
Cinta
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
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bullet Posted: 04 August 2009 at 4:57am

wasallamualaikum all

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bullet Posted: 04 August 2009 at 10:29am
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

 
Mariah was Hafsa's slave (or servant) and Hafsa did not permit his husband to touch or even to have sex with Mariah, a coptic girl.
 
...
 
On the other hand, Hafsa was angry with her husband decision to brake the promise and to make Mariah pregnant and gave birth to Ibrahim (the only son). Unfortunately Ibrahim died at the age of 2.
 
I hope my brothers & sisters in Islam get the wisdom of the stories.


The two stories are not analogous. Mariah was not Hafsa's slave, or servant. Not at all. Mariah was sent to the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) as a gift, so if she was a slave to anyone it would be to Muhammad (ﷺ) and not Hafsa.

So it's not Hafsa's place to permit or allow her husband relations with a woman who is his servant or his wife. The reason Hafsa was angry was that the intimacy took place in her own bed, Hafsa's bed.

The story needs to be understood correctly, and so far you haven't been presenting it accurately.
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bullet Posted: 04 August 2009 at 10:51am
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

wasallamualaikum Cyra,
 
Thanks for your comment.
Btw, I'm wondering why our muslim brothers took the ayat & sunnah as their life guidelines.


For the same reason all Muslims take the ayaat of the Qur'an and the Sunnah as guidelines:

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. 33:21
 
They always told me that Al Quran is the final revelation and our best guidelines. If we follow the ayats & the sunnah, we will follow the best creature, our Prophet.


This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. 5:3
But, I strongly disagree that cheating your wife is 'sunnah'. Having sex with your servant is 'sunnah'. Rape kafirun girls is halal and 'sunnah'. Married with small girl (9-year old girl) as 'sunnah'.
You won't find Muslims with knowledge who believe that the Prophet Muhammad  ﷺ ever cheated on any of his wives. Ever. Slavery as an institution no longer exists as it did during the time of the Prophet ﷺ. Rape is an abominable sin, regardless of the girl's religion--rape is not and has never been a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ. The Prophet's marriage to 'A'isha was culturally acceptable at that time, and in general a marriage to a girl of that age would not be acceptable today.
 
I'm thinking why merciful & lovely Allah once permit the muslim brothers to rape the jewish females in Kaibar war. Do the muslim brothers & jewish females have the same Allah? Most of the prophets are jewish. Why Allah "hate" jewish so much??? Is Allah worshipped by jewish females (the Khaibar victims) different from Allah worshipped by the muslim brothers???
Rape is never okay, as I said before.
 
Why the 'real' Allah permit our Prophet to cheat Hafsa? And to break his own promise to not touch Mariah??? Does Allah know that the sunnah & ayat will be followed by our muslim brothers??? Why the bad examples can be our "perfect" guideline ????
Did you know that Allah revealed to Muhammad ﷺ, some ayaat about his wives? Have you read them, in Surah Tahreem? The Prophet ﷺ is supposed to be an example:

O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
The bad incidents in our time are following these sunnahs & ayats.
The last week bomb blast in Jakarta was done by our muslim brothers.
The rape of kafirun in Jakarta was done by muslim brothers.
The rape of Indonesian female workers was done by muslim brothers in Saudi Arabia. Most tragic that those incidents cannot be proceed with state law, they said Islamic law (syariah, sunnah & Quran) is higher than the state law.


Just to clarify--you are blaming Islam for a bomb, and for rapes. But you're entirely misrepresenting Islam, which actually condemns any sort of terrorism (like bombing) and prohibits illicit intercourse which includes rape. Islamic Law, Shari'ah, were it properly implemented, would punish the perpetrators of these acts. And you dare to blame them on Shari'ah? They are acts of ignorance, of the time before Islam.
 
So what's wrong with our religion??? Is Islam for human beings???
or Human beings is for Islam???? Are we all hiding behind the ayats & sunnahs to do the evil works???
 
The Qur'an and the Sunnah being used for evil? No. The problems you mention are from ignorance, not from Islam. Islam is the cure. 
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bullet Posted: 04 August 2009 at 2:24pm
Maybe it wasn't quite accurate in it's presentation, but for a man to take a different woman (not the wife) in a marriage bed, still wrong.  Color me jaded, but if I was married and my husband took another woman, wife or not in my bed, I would be beyond livid.  Doesn't matter who or how they are connected.
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bullet Posted: 04 August 2009 at 5:28pm
I would also be upset for my husband to be intimate with another woman in my bed, and I can understand how Hafsa was upset.

To go on ranting about rape and adultery, as has been done in this thread isn't relevant to Hafsa's situation whatsoever. Intimate relations with Maria were undoubtedly permissible in Islamic Law, or the Prophet ﷺ wouldn't have engaged in such relations. That they took place in Hafsa's bed is a far lesser matter, even though it seems to be in poor taste.
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