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Cyra  
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bullet Posted: 04 August 2009 at 6:00pm
I hear you, Amy.  Although, I'm thinking "upset" and "in poor taste" are understatements.  I do think that Cinta ( and myself) are trying to understand why some brothers will use these examples to justify horrid practices.  It may just be a case of rhetorical questioning and venting of frustration.  It frustrates me to read or hear about  cases where men will say "She asked for it, she wasn't dressed properly," etc.  Obviously, these guys don't really understand their own religion if they say such outrageous things or say that it is sunnah.  There may also be a level of frustration more directed toward the countries that allow these things to happen, especially being that they are "muslim" countries, supposedly held to shari'ah.  It appears (note I say "appears") that men get away with a lot of nasty things in regards to women in some places.  I can't know because I'm not there to experience these issues, al hamdulillah.  However, if even  one women is mistreated in  these ways and they use these "guidelines" to justify the behaviors, it is utterly wrong.
 
Also, and maybe I'm off here, but "guidelines" are just that guidelines.  Sunnah are guidelines based on the prophet's (pbuh) actions, words, etc.  Not necessarily the hard and fast rules.  They show us how he dealt with certain situations of the times which may give us insight on how to deal with certain present day situations, yes?  Ayat, however is the Word of Allah and is a set of hard, set in stone rules, no?  Please do correct me if I'm not getting it...still learning y'know.
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bullet Posted: 04 August 2009 at 10:08pm
wasallamualaikum all,
 
I always heard from my muslim brothers in Friday Prayings that "guidances" in Quran are final, obvious (not ambigious), give precise orders and valid from jahiliah time until now.
 
So they see the examples / sunnahs are still valid today and they are halal to do it. I saw how my muslim brothers attached the kafirun houses, burnt the houses (including the people inside) and raped the kafirun females on the street. When they did it, they said loudly 'Allah hu Akbar".
 
Our Imam also said based on Ayats & Hadists, it is halal.
My muslim brothers use the ayats that permit the muslim soldiers to rape the jewish females in Khaibar war. In other words, the ayats are the justification and also permission for my muslim brothers to do (as they said) God works & God Will, but I believe it was evil works.
 
In family life, I always heard directly from my muslimah sisters that their husband frequently "love" them with some hits and slaps. Their husbands said it is halal and permitted in Quran. Sometimes their husbands brought female servants to their beds. And again, they said it was permitted. If their wives are diagree with that, then the wives will be hit & slapped again due to disrespect to husband & Islam.
 
So the definition of Adultery in Islam become so abstruct to me. Should I use the definition of Adultery based on secular point of view or from Islamic point of view.
 
To make me clear, please tell me:
a) What muslim soldiers did to jewish females in Khaibar war can be caterorised as RAPE?
b) What is the punishment for RAPE in Islam?
c)  Does Allah once allow RAPE ?
 
Your answers may help me.
 
Regards,
Cinta
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
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bullet Posted: 05 August 2009 at 11:08am
You are enlightened, much as the lighthouse in your avatar. Allah blesses you.
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bullet Posted: 05 August 2009 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Cyra

I hear you, Amy.  Although, I'm thinking "upset" and "in poor taste" are understatements.  I do think that Cinta ( and myself) are trying to understand why some brothers will use these examples to justify horrid practices.  It may just be a case of rhetorical questioning and venting of frustration.  It frustrates me to read or hear about  cases where men will say "She asked for it, she wasn't dressed properly," etc.  Obviously, these guys don't really understand their own religion if they say such outrageous things or say that it is sunnah.


It's true they don't understand their religion, and we shouldn't let them get away with their ignorance. So I'm calling them on their ignorance. Complaints like the ones in this thread actually justify their ignorance, and try to make Islam out to be the problem when the exact reverse is true.

A friend of mine is a student at law school, and she related to me a story about a man in her class who was arguing with the professor on the matter of rape. Basically, if the girl "consented," was it still considered rape. The student's argument was that if the man forced (with threats or physical violence) the women to "allow" him to penetrate her, that it wouldn't be considered rape. The person was from a "developing country" where such behavior is considered commonplace. And he, studying to be a lawyer, considered such forced "consent" to be a legitimate legal defense against rape! (Suffice to say the law professor did NOT agree!)

A week or so ago on the news there were stories from men in South Africa who would gang-rape a woman--they would buy her a drink in a bar, drug her, and then abduct and rape her. They considered it perfectly acceptable to do so, because if the woman was in the bar she was to some extent "asking for it."

This behavior, rape and sexual assault, is associated with ignorance, and to some extent oppressed societies, where men treat women this way. My point is that if a man wants to commit a rape, he will use all manner of ridiculous excuses to support it. If some brothers are using Islam to justify their behavior, then we should set them straight.

What is happening here in this thread is that sisters are trying to justify brothers' behavior with Islam!!! How much worse!? They're blaming Islam, and that needs correction.

There may also be a level of frustration more directed toward the countries that allow these things to happen, especially being that they are "muslim" countries, supposedly held to shari'ah.  It appears (note I say "appears") that men get away with a lot of nasty things in regards to women in some places.  I can't know because I'm not there to experience these issues, al hamdulillah.  However, if even  one women is mistreated in  these ways and they use these "guidelines" to justify the behaviors, it is utterly wrong.


There was a woman who accused a man of rape, either during the time of the Prophet ﷺ or an eminent scholar after him. She accused a particular man of raping her (and she had been raped) and that man was going to be punished, severely (I think by stoning to death), with the only piece of evidence being the testimony of the woman! So how can we say that rape is a sunnah, when clearly it is punishable by death?
 
Also, and maybe I'm off here, but "guidelines" are just that guidelines.  Sunnah are guidelines based on the prophet's (pbuh) actions, words, etc.  Not necessarily the hard and fast rules.  They show us how he dealt with certain situations of the times which may give us insight on how to deal with certain present day situations, yes?  Ayat, however is the Word of Allah and is a set of hard, set in stone rules, no?  Please do correct me if I'm not getting it...still learning y'know.


In some cases, guidelines, and in some cases hard and fast rules. The Sunnah is not a lesser authority, first of all. It is equal to the Qur'an, in that if the Prophet ﷺ prohibited something for the Muslims, the prohibition is from Allah and in that sense it is equal to the Qur'an. The life of the Prophet ﷺ is supposed to be an example for us, and legal rulings are absolutely derived from the way he dealt with particular situations (like rape.)

It doesn't mean we have to do every single thing he did (e.g., wear the same kinds of clothes, eat the same foods, etc.) and can't do anything he didn't do, but he is someone to learn from.

And so when people (typically it is the enemies of Islam) claim that the Prophet ﷺ did something as evil as rape a woman, it's a claim that should be addressed. If people use the Sunnah to justify their behavior, they need to know what the Sunnah is, and not pick and choose a random piece they want to use to fulfill their personal desires.
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bullet Posted: 05 August 2009 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

wasallamualaikum all,
 
I always heard from my muslim brothers in Friday Prayings that "guidances" in Quran are final, obvious (not ambigious), give precise orders and valid from jahiliah time until now.


Not everything in the Qur'an is perfectly crystal clear, even the Qur'an says so:

It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah, and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. 3:7
So there are clear verses and unclear verses. But your brothers won't find any verse in the Qur'an which justifies rape or abuse of women. 

And certainly the Qur'an (and the Sunnah) still apply today, and do so for the end of time, there's no dispute on that. But that requires actual understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah.

So they see the examples / sunnahs are still valid today and they are halal to do it. I saw how my muslim brothers attached the kafirun houses, burnt the houses (including the people inside) and raped the kafirun females on the street. When they did it, they said loudly 'Allah hu Akbar".


There are no examples in the Qur'an or the Sunnah of attacking non-Muslims without provocation, without cause. And even if there is cause to fight (like in war), then it is still not allowed (it is prohibited, haraam) to kill women, children, or any non-combatants (sick, elderly, etc.) Rape is never ever allowed. And your brothers will not find any example in the Qur'an or Sunnah of rape ever being permissible.
 
Our Imam also said based on Ayats & Hadists, it is halal.
I think you might have misunderstood what is halaal--rape never is.

My muslim brothers use the ayats that permit the muslim soldiers to rape the jewish females in Khaibar war. In other words, the ayats are the justification and also permission for my muslim brothers to do (as they said) God works & God Will, but I believe it was evil works.


There is absolutely no authentic evidence of rape ever being permitted, and this is a claim of the enemies of Islam, who are twisting and distorting the actual reports.
 
In family life, I always heard directly from my muslimah sisters that their husband frequently "love" them with some hits and slaps. Their husbands said it is halal and permitted in Quran. Sometimes their husbands brought female servants to their beds. And again, they said it was permitted. If their wives are diagree with that, then the wives will be hit & slapped again due to disrespect to husband & Islam.


So you live in a country which has servants? Interesting. Still, the Islamic concept of captive women (i.e., "what your right hands possess") is not equivalent to the idea of a "servant" being a housekeeper, etc. And any man who thinks that hitting or slapping a person shows "love" is a moron. The Prophet ﷺ according to his wife, Aisha, never hit a woman, or a servant, or anything except when he was fighting in the sake of Allah (i.e., at war.) That is the Sunnah.

So the definition of Adultery in Islam become so abstruct to me. Should I use the definition of Adultery based on secular point of view or from Islamic point of view.
When you're talking about Islam, use the definition of adultery in Islam. 
 
To make me clear, please tell me:
a) What muslim soldiers did to jewish females in Khaibar war can be caterorised as RAPE?

There's no authentic evidence to substantiate such a ridiculous claim. The women were taken as captives and even given restrictions about how to treat them. Women captives were supposed to provided and cared for in the same manner as a wife! The idea of captives is abominable to us today but something that was commonplace at the time, and at the time a man wouldn't think twice about taking or raping a woman. What Islam gives women in that position is freedom from his force during menstruation and pregnancy, provision in terms of food, clothing, and shelter, and also a means to obtain her freedom--by having a child, or by accepting Islam. It was a way to help women get out of that position in a society that didn't understand how wrong it was. And more importantly, Islam provides a way to end human captivity altogether, which is the ultimate goal, isn't it?

b) What is the punishment for RAPE in Islam?

If it is actual rape, and not lawful intercourse with a woman whom a man is legally allowed to have intercourse with, then the punishment is either lashes or stoning to death.

c)  Does Allah once allow RAPE ?
How could you even ask?
 
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bullet Posted: 05 August 2009 at 12:40pm
Punishment for rapists:

It might be the same as for zina (at a minimum) which means either stoning to death for a married person, or lashes for an unmarried person, (in addition to paying a sum of money to the woman in both those cases) and banishment if the person is not killed. If the person threatened the use of a weapon, there might be a punishment of four things, either death, crucifixion, exile, or cutting hands/feet from opposite sides. These four punishments are an option for the judge in that case.

From here.
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Cyra  
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bullet Posted: 05 August 2009 at 2:07pm
Thanks Amy.  Your vast stores of knowledge never cease to amaze me.
 
BTW, I'm not sure that "trying to justify...with Islam" is accurate, at least not in my case.  I think I was more on the same page with you, in that we do need to set these guys straight, or at the very least try.  Unfortunately, many of them are unwilling to hear women, as they think they are lesser creatures and how could a woman possibly know more about it than them (men)?  Much as seems the case with your law school guy.
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bullet Posted: 05 August 2009 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Cyra

Thanks Amy.  Your vast stores of knowledge never cease to amaze me.
 
BTW, I'm not sure that "trying to justify...with Islam" is accurate, at least not in my case.  I think I was more on the same page with you, in that we do need to set these guys straight, or at the very least try.  Unfortunately, many of them are unwilling to hear women, as they think they are lesser creatures and how could a woman possibly know more about it than them (men)?  Much as seems the case with your law school guy.
 
That of course is the key.
 
It's the guy's looking to excuse their behaviour (in any way) that need to be corrected.
 
As all three of you have pointed out!
 
Question .... how to get you point of view to be accepted .... by the lowest common denominator?
 
 
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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bullet Posted: 05 August 2009 at 11:17pm
One thing I love about Islam is that it's protected from run-of-the-mill morons who think harassment is their right, that they are entitled to it by virtue of their anatomy.

The scholars of Islam are teaching the message that the women are supporting, and women support it (obviously) because it's the truth. It just needs to be louder, especially from the scholars. Unfortunately, it's the backbirths who get time on the media, who get publicity, and not our beloved teachers who have devoted their lives to the study of our deen.

Islam is the solution--the Qur'an, and the Sunnah, and the beautiful example of the Prophet ﷺ.

One time, a man came to the Prophet ﷺ and asked for adultery/fornication (zina) to be made lawful for him. The way that the Prophet ﷺ responded should be a lesson for the rest of us. He asked the man how he would feel if someone were to commit adultery with his mother. And then he asked how he'd feel if someone were to fornicate with his sister. And so on. And because the man obviously would hate the act to be done with the women near to him, he was able to understand how it would be inappropriate to engage in it with a woman who was someone else's mother, daughter, sister, wife, etc.
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cinta_nabillah  
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bullet Posted: 06 August 2009 at 5:12am
Wasallamualaikum all,
 
This ayat is used by my muslim brothers to attach the kafirun properties, take & rape the kafirun females.  
 
وَالْمُحْصَنَـتُ مِنَ النِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ
" فَاسْتَحْلَلْنَا فَزَوْجهنَّ وَهَكَذَا رَوَاهُ التِّرْمِذِيّ عَنْ أَحْمَد بْن مَنِيع عَنْ هُشَيْم وَرَوَاهُ النَّسَائِيّ مِنْ حَدِيث سُفْيَان الثَّوْرِيّ وَشُعْبَة بْن الْحَجَّاج ثَلَاثَتهمْ عَنْ عُثْمَان الْبَتِّيّ وَرَوَاهُ اِبْن مَاجَهْ مِنْ حَدِيث أَشْعَث بْن سِوَار عَنْ عُثْمَان الْبَتِّيّ وَرَوَاهُ مُسْلِم فِي صَحِيحه
 
My muslim brothers really know how to implement this ayat in our time. They think kafirun females are halal to be raped.
Btw, is the ayat still valid now??? 
 
Dear Aviatrix, I believe your story is not valid (not sahih). I could not find the story in sahih hadists. Please refer to the above ayat, that's is the valid respond, which allowed our muslim brothers to rape the kafirun girls from Awtas area.
 
One time, a man came to the Prophet ﷺ and asked for adultery/fornication (zina) to be made lawful for him. The way that the Prophet ﷺ responded should be a lesson for the rest of us. He asked the man how he would feel if someone were to commit adultery with his mother. And then he asked how he'd feel if someone were to fornicate with his sister. And so on. And because the man obviously would hate the act to be done with the women near to him, he was able to understand how it would be inappropriate to engage in it with a woman who was someone else's mother, daughter, sister, wife, etc.
Please help our muslim brothers, for all muslimah sisters please unite.
 
Regards,
Cinta 
 
 
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bullet Posted: 06 August 2009 at 10:19am
Ok, ummmm yeah...not so good with reading Arabic yet, yo...   LOL, who am I kidding?  Not so good with speaking it yet, either. 

Edited by Cyra - 06 August 2009 at 10:19am
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bullet Posted: 06 August 2009 at 10:24am
You must mean this ayah, since not all of what you posted above is actually an ayah.

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

والمحصنات من النساء إلا ما ملكت أيمانكم كتاب الله عليكم وأحل لكم ما وراء ذلكم أن تبتغوا بأموالكم محصنين غير مسافحين فما استمتعتم به منهن فآتوهن أجورهن فريضة ولا جناح عليكم فيما تراضيتم به من بعد الفريضة إن الله كان عليما حكيما

It's 4:24, and clearly does not allow rape of anyone. It looks like your brothers are out of luck--incorrectly implementing something. They have no evidence to support their crimes. Shari'ah is instituted to protect five things, one of which is honor, and rape is a crime against honor, regardless of what the woman's religion is. There is no evidence to back up the claims of your brothers--maybe you should tell them that.

But personally, I don't know any Muslim man who would ever consider rape of a woman to be halal, even if every word out of her mouth were to curse Allah or the Prophet ﷺ. Why do you keep trying to insist that the rapists are in the right? Why are you trying to justify their behavior?

About the story I quoted, it is recorded in the Musnad of Imam Ahmad, on the authority of Abu Imama. It is mentioned in a book called "Status of Women in Islamic Society."

Allh Tala says:
"And do not go near zina. It is indeed a shameful and an evil path." (Surah Al Isr, Ayah 32)

Allh Tala says:
"The woman and the man guilty of fornication - lash each of them with a hundred lashes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allh, if you believe in Allh and the Last day and let a group of believers witness their punishment". (Surah Al-Nr, Ayah 2)

What you are discussing is very serious--it's time to educate your brothers about the seriousness of their crimes. Call them to Islam.
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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 5:29am
Wasallamualaikum all,
 
I had been in Dubai for 2 years & Riyadh for 3 years.
In Riyadh, I saw my fathers got thousand of rape reports, involving Indonesian female labors in Saudi Arabia. We could not charge the Arabian employees with the Indonesian law (secular law), the employees used the Syariah Law to avoid the charges. My father were frustated at that time, he once wrote a letter to Indonesian President to protect the female labors. Our secular government cannot do anything when they are facing the Islamic or Syariah law.  
 
I personally saw that the females in Riyadh were "jailed". They cannot get the same opportunities to get higher education & higher position in the society. Their activities were limited, their friendships were also limited. They all were "jailed" in their houses. I do not know what kind of freedom given by the Syariah law to my muslimah sisters in Saudi Arabia.
 
In Indonesia, I also see the same things, in the "much religious" Islamic area, I can see my muslimah friends are also "jailed". They cannot get higher education & stoning punishment is implemented if they did flirting or being raped. It is so tragic, they even do not have rights to defend themselves.
 
My Muslim brothers also think that they are the truly muslims. They do exactly 100% what Quran tell them. They want Syariah to be implemented in Indonesia. They want all muslimahs to be "limited". They do not want muslimahs in the streets, shopping centers & schools. They want all muslimahs to stay at home, waiting and "servicing" their husbands. They call the condition as the condition wanted by Allah & the Prophet.
 
They show me the ayats & the sahih hadists. They can read & speak Arabic. They know the exact meaning of the ayats & hadists. But so tragic that they follow them exactly as we were in the Prophet time.
 
I do not know why they call zinah / adultery when the muslimah sister was touched by the kafirun male. But they call it halal when the muslim brothers rape the kafirun females. The definition of rape in Islam become blur & ambigious. It is tragic that my muslim brothers follow exactly what stated in Quran & sahih Hadists.
 
Regards,
Cinta
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
    
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bullet Posted: 07 August 2009 at 8:41am
Cinta, I daresay they do NOT know the exact meanings, as evidenced by their blatant disregard for women.  As Amy stated previously, the prophet (pbuh) never treated women in this manner nor did he allow it from others.
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