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cinta_nabillah  
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bullet Posted: 27 August 2009 at 1:26am

Wasallamualaikum all,

In this holy Ramadhan, the police kidnapped my muslim brothers due to their understanding of Jihad. As I had shared to this forum that my muslim brothers accepted & implemented all sunnah, hadists & ayats without any filter and adjustment. They implemeted it as they are in the Prophet & Khalifah time. Basically they think that all non muslims are Allah's enemies and they are free to "treat" the kafirun people. Also they think all kafirun females are their right possession.

I'm speechless, I don't know whether I'm wrong or actually my muslim brothers are the true muslims.
 
Regards,
Cinta 
 
 
   
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bullet Posted: 27 August 2009 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

Wasallamualaikum all,
 
Responding to my sister Aviatrix (sorry in advance for the 'hard' respond)
 
Let me be clear: there are no ayat or ahadith which allow muslim men to attack and rape women. Not from Khaybar or any other time. Not women who are among believers or disbelievers. Period. Your brothers are wrong if they say otherwise, it's that simple.

Yes, it is your opinion. But you can read these ayats & hadists which my muslim brothers believe 100% on them :

a) Sahih Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 459 (about Al Azl / coptus interreptus with the female kafiruns)
 
b) Hadis Abu Dawud (2150) (having sex in front of the female kafiruns' husbands)
 
c) Ayat in Quran 4:24
 
Moreover, they believe the ayats & hadists are still valid until now and have to be "implemented" precisely 100%. Reducing the meaning of the hadists & ayats are forbidden by them. They said the ayats & hadists are very clear and it is commands to the true muslim, to declare war & spread terror to the kafiruns, and also to show the their true love (true lust) to the kafirun females.
 
Sis Aviatrix comment:
Mariah was not a servant of Hafsah, but a wife of the Prophet (s)!
There is no evidence that our Prophet married with Mariah. Mariah was not officially Prophet's wife. In hadists, she was recognised as one of our Prophet's sex slaves. Moreover, Mariah had sex with our Prophet before married (sex before married). (*so tragic, my muslim brothers follow it by having sex with their female servants without any guilty).
 
Sis Aviatrix comment:
You cannot just "re-interpret" the word of God and His messenger to make the religion the way you want. Understand it the way it has classically been interpreted, and you will see how what I have explained to you here is the correct and valid interpretation. And how the twisted actions of your muslim brothers are a mockery of Islam.
I agree with you Sis. But my brothers do not interpret the ayats & hadists. They just follow exactly 100% the ayats & hadists. 
 
Btw, should I tell my muslim brothers to "think & filter" the ayats & hadists again??? I will be stoned by them if I said so.
 
Regards,
Cinta


Sorry, I took a break from the forum for a while. Let me go ahead and respond to your allegations, yet again, for the benefit of the forum.

It was not my opinion when I declared there to be no ayat or ahadith permitting rape. It was a fact. Let's look at what you are presenting as counter evidence.

Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:

I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."

This is the hadith you mentioned in point a. There is nothing in this hadith about rape. Nothing at all. It's talking about "coitus interruptus." Today we call that "pulling out." The men were doing it to prevent impregnating women they weren't married to. As has already been established, intercourse was permissible in some cases with women who were captives. Rape, however, as you allege, is not what is permitted.

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.  So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150)

About the second hadith you mentioned, honestly I couldn't find a translation of it in regular sources, so I had to utilize a non-Muslim source. I'm kind of sketchy about that, but since the hadith still fails to validate your argument, I'll post it here as I found it on a non-Muslim anti-islam site.

And just like before, the hadith doesn't say anything about rape. Having intercourse isn't necessarily rape.

And now we can easily transition to discuss the ayah.

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All­Knowing, All­Wise. 4:24

Which also does not mention rape! So as I said, no ayah or hadith permitting rape. All these talk about something else altogether which is intercourse being permissible with captive women. Now if you have a problem with, that, why don't you say so, instead of just ranting about rape and adultery? This case is neither--in fact it's a special situation that no longer exists because the institution of slavery no longer exists, alhamdulillah. The ahadith and the ayat are valid and will continue to be, they are a part of the deen, they simply do not apply to modern day situations because they talk about a very specific institution which as I said, no longer exists. And rape is still not allowed. 



My second point was about Hafsah. I personally don't know of any authentic evidence that Mariah was actually the wife of the Prophet (saws). She was sent to him from Egypt as a gift, which would make her a captive under his authority, and he was responsible for taking care of her. And intercourse was permissible with her, also. However, many scholars do consider her to be an actual wife of the Prophet (saws) and she is included among the Mothers of the Believers.

What is absolutely incorrect, on the other hand, is your persistent claim that she, Mariah, was Hafsa's servant. That is wholly inaccurate.

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bullet Posted: 27 August 2009 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

Wasallamualaikum all,
 
I was sad that my muslim brothers did not want to hear me that their actions were not permitted by Allah. They challenged me whether there is ayat, hadist or sunnah which order them to stop attacking and raping the kafirun females.
 
About the raping kafirun females, they said it is the kafirun's fault, why they do not want to cover their bodies with hijab, jilbab or burkah. And why they do not want to confess that Allah is the only God and our Prophet is the messenger of Allah.
 
So they said the kafirun females are halal to be raped. They refer it to the Khaibar war and other wars in our Prophet & Kalifahs' time. They said the kafirun females are the "right possesion" for the muslim brothers. Basically they just follow 100% what our Prophet ordered and what muslim soldiers did to kafirun girls. They do not want to argue or filter or adjust the ayats, hadists & sunnahs. They said it is final and still valid in our time.
 
So what should I do? Can I change their "pure" actions????
 
Regards,
Cinta  (in very sad mood, knowing the females become the object of lust, not love)


I've already explained all these things to you, and why your "brothers" are wrong.

But I have a question for you, something to think about.

If those men you call your "brothers" say that it's "halal" to rape non-Muslim women because they don't cover, then is it "halal" for them to rape Muslim women who also don't cover? There are many women who don't wear a headscarf, or they wear tight clothes, for example.

Also, if non-Muslim women were covering, if they did wear a headscarf or even a burka, would they still consider it "halal" to rape them?

You see, non-Muslim women are not the possession of anyone, certainly not of random hooligans like your "brothers." When the Qur'an refers to "what your right hands possess," it's talking about women who were taken captive in war. So it doesn't apply to any women today.

Now, you're also providing a few different bizarre "rationalizations" for this rape. First saying it's because the women aren't Muslims, then because they don't cover, then because of Khaybar (which I explained before is not a situation which makes rape permissible), then saying that it's in Shari'ah (which it's not), and then saying that Shari'ah is still valid today (which it is.)

Part of Shari'ah is that a rapist (the man) can be punished equivalent to whether he committed adultery or fornication. That he will have to pay a mahr to the woman he raped. That he will likely be exiled from the place where he lives. That is Shari'ah. Your "brothers" can't pick and choose what they want to follow in Islam.

If you want to change them, try teaching them Islam for a change instead of trying to convince people here that Islam is the problem. Try directing them to actual scholars instead of the kind of morons who think that rape has or ever had a place in Islam.
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bullet Posted: 27 August 2009 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

Wasallamualaikum all,

In this holy Ramadhan, the police kidnapped my muslim brothers due to their understanding of Jihad. As I had shared to this forum that my muslim brothers accepted & implemented all sunnah, hadists & ayats without any filter and adjustment. They implemeted it as they are in the Prophet & Khalifah time. Basically they think that all non muslims are Allah's enemies and they are free to "treat" the kafirun people. Also they think all kafirun females are their right possession.

I'm speechless, I don't know whether I'm wrong or actually my muslim brothers are the true muslims.
 
Regards,
Cinta


The police kidnapped your brothers? Don't you mean the police arrested them?

We all on this forum know that your "brothers" did not accept and implement the Sunnah, they did not even understand the ahadith and ayat. In fact, I'm questioning whether they or even you have ever actually read the Qur'an. This is the month of the Qur'an--read it.

Maybe while your brothers are in jail they can do the same. And frankly, if your brothers think they can rape people without consequence, I find there no safer place for them to be than in jail.
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bullet Posted: 01 September 2009 at 4:09am
Wasallamualaikum all,
 
What Aviatrix explained to me is exactly what my brothers (from different mothers) told me. But the difference is my brothers believe that the condition & situation now are the same as those in the Prophet & Kalifahs' time.
 
They related Khaibar as the kafirun places/ premises and the jewish females as the kafirun females. After they attacked the kafirun places, they took the kafirun females as their captives. And so tragic, they did al azl / coptus interreptus / sex with the captives.
 
Much tragic that they used the ayats & hadists as their references for doing those nasty things.
 
I have been trying to persuade them to stop but they blamed me & called me undevoted, not a true muslimah & hypocrite.
 
I do not know why when I defend the female rights (regardless of her religion), they always called me hypocrite. Should I support them to do such a nasty thing, to be recognised as a true muslimah?
 
They called their nasty actions as sunnah and it is halal. But I said it is haram and considered as rape / adultery. So which one is right? My muslim brothers or ???
 
Thanks & Regards,
Cinta.
 
 
 
 
 
   
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cinta_nabillah  
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bullet Posted: 01 September 2009 at 4:21am
 
".... the true definition of Adultery become ambigious when they hide behind Ayats & Hadists."
 
                                                -Siti Fatimah on the tv interview 31/08/2009
                              
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bullet Posted: 01 September 2009 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

Wasallamualaikum all,
 
What Aviatrix explained to me is exactly what my brothers (from different mothers) told me. But the difference is my brothers believe that the condition & situation now are the same as those in the Prophet & Kalifahs' time.
 
They related Khaibar as the kafirun places/ premises and the jewish females as the kafirun females. After they attacked the kafirun places, they took the kafirun females as their captives. And so tragic, they did al azl / coptus interreptus / sex with the captives.
 
Much tragic that they used the ayats & hadists as their references for doing those nasty things.
 
I have been trying to persuade them to stop but they blamed me & called me undevoted, not a true muslimah & hypocrite.
 
I do not know why when I defend the female rights (regardless of her religion), they always called me hypocrite. Should I support them to do such a nasty thing, to be recognised as a true muslimah?
 
They called their nasty actions as sunnah and it is halal. But I said it is haram and considered as rape / adultery. So which one is right? My muslim brothers or ???
 
Thanks & Regards,
Cinta.


What I explained is in fact quite different than what your "brothers" have been telling you.

They say rape is okay in Islam, and I've been saying it's not now, nor has it ever been.
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bullet Posted: 02 September 2009 at 1:51am
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem.

Salaam. Stop trying to follow the "Muslim Brothers" and follow Rasulullah (SAAWS). -Yusuf
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bullet Posted: 03 September 2009 at 1:17am
Wasallamualaikum all,
 
So what my brothers did to the kafirun girls cannot be categorised as rape?
 
What do we call the "action" did by our muslim soldiers to jewish females in Khaibar, is it rape?
 
I'm shocked when Aviatrix wrote that having intercourse isn't necessarily rape. Do you mean that having intercourse with the captives in front of their husbands is not rape??? So what you call it then???
 
Btw, I bought & read the hadist Abu Dawud when I was in Riyadh. So I believe the hadist is sahih. Otherwise, the hadist cannot be distributed in Saudi Arabia.
 
Concerning the captives, believe me... it is still exist. Please read the news from 3rd countries (incl. Somalia, Kenya, Iraq, Yaman, my country). See what happen to the female captives.
 
Aviatrix wrote :
"...so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed."
 
Yes, I had seen the implementation of this ayat when some middle east men had "fun" with some Indonesian village girls for some weeks & months and then "pay" them with Mahr.
 
I as a female (regardless of my Islam) can feel, see and experience the implementation of the ayat & hadist which I believe it is unfair and only see from the male perspective & for the benefits of the men.  
 
Thanks & Regards,
Cinta Nabilah
 
 
 
  
 
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Yusuf Hamza  
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bullet Posted: 03 September 2009 at 2:59am
Bismillah. Salaam.

You give off the impression that Islam is somehow only difficult for a woman yet easy for a man. I will be the first to agree that a believing woman certainly has more fitna in Islam than a man. No doubt about it.

I am a man who accepted Islam a year ago. Before that, I rarely had any companionship due to my former Christian faith. I have never beaten, raped, or abused a woman ever in my life. My first girlfriend was at 21. Didn't date before then. Majority of my adult life was spent in study, seclusion, melancholy, and quiet contemplation. To date, I haven't been with a woman in five years. Before that, three years. I would like to say that I have obstained from dating and sexual relations due to my religious beliefs but the truth is that I am not the paradigm for being anything more than your average loner with streaks of both kindness and rebellion against social norms. Being a good man doesn't necessarily mean squat to most people but I pray that my efforts at being a good Muslim counts with Allah enough that I am accepted into Janna and saved from the Hell-fire. Still, Islam has reconfirmed and reinforced my respect and admiration for women as great thinkers, teachers, and pillars of a moral society, not as sexual objects or breeding factories. This won't guarantee me any physical pleasure or even the companionship of a wife (in fact, it may guarantee me physical isolation, astaghfirullah) yet I understand and respect a woman's right to choose a husband and be treated honorably. I know that actions of violence against women is fundamentally wrong in Islam and that protecting and caring for them should always be the priority whether they are Muslim or not.

Best regards, Yusuf


Edited by Yusuf Hamza - 03 September 2009 at 3:06am
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bullet Posted: 03 September 2009 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by cinta_nabillah

 
So what should I do? Can I change their "pure" actions????

 


Salaam,

From reading your posts, and 'listening' to you repeatedly say how these "brothers" do not wish to listen, then I'd have to say there is not much more for you to do is there? Maybe when you put your head down into sujood in every prayer, you should beseech Allah to guide these men to the STRAIGHT path, and not the path that they are taking.

You're questions have already been answered mashaAllah very well, regarding adultery/rape etc... I honestly don't know what else you are looking for :)

All the best.

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bullet Posted: 17 September 2009 at 8:19am
Wasallamualaikum all,
 
I do not know why Allah allowed our muslim soldiers to rape the jewish females in Khaibar war & much tragic they raped them in front of the husbands. And so sad it was followed by my muslim brothers.
 
The status as "captives" is only the justification for doing the evil things to the kafirun females. When my muslim brothers attacted the kafirun properties, they also claimed that the kafirun females as the captives and it is halal to have sex with them. For me, I call the action as rape. But my muslim brothers and some people in this forum call it halal since it was stated in the Ayats & hadists.
 
Regardless of my Islam, I still have heart to hear the tears of the females (whether they are kafirun or muslimah). I can see the sad faces of little girls who lost their childhood because they have to marry with older males. For the males, they said it is sunnah. 
 
I can see the tears of the wife who has to accept the decision of her husband to have more wives. I can understand that it is all about lust & sex, not love.
 
I do not know how to persuade my muslim brothers that they have to be wiser if they want to follow the ayats, hadists & sunnah. If not, they will be syaitans (satans) in the human bodies. They can kill, they can rape, they can do bad things to mankinds.
 
I wish this Ramadhan will enlight our path to Allah the Mighty God.
Allah hu Akbar.
 
Regards,
Cinta Nabillah.
 
 
 
 
  
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2009 at 6:47pm
No one here is condoning rape.  You fail to understand that.  No one here has said it is halal or that it is sunnah or in hadith.
 
Also, Allah doesn't "allow" anything.  We all were given the freedom to choose how we act.  Some choose to act like animals, they will answer to that when that time comes.
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bullet Posted: 24 September 2009 at 4:15pm

Read The light sura of the quran it speaks of adultery and the punishment if you are a victim.

Islam is the truth!
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