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freedom-lover
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2010 at 5:44pm

Hi searching

 

Thank you very much for your comment. I understand your point well. Have you ever read the whole Bible very deeply without any input from outside? It clearly shows that complete forgiveness requires paying the appropriate consequence for the sins in addition to repentance, and that is God’s way. Repentance is very important for forgiveness, but really a first step to complete forgiveness. It may be different from what you want or wish it to be, but that is God’s way. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Proverbs 14:12) Do you know why animal sacrifice was such a critical component before having a fellowship with God? Because the consequence of the sins of God's people had to be paid onto the animals before coming to God. God is so holy that even the smallest blemish of impurity would evaporate before Him. Why onto the animals? To spare His people from the judgment. Otherwise, His people would have been destroyed completely because the penalty for sins is death according to the perfect and high standard of God. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished (Exodus 34:7). “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Do you really want to pay the consequence by yourself, which means eternal death? Or do you want Jesus to pay the consequence for you, which means eternal life? Now God is offering His best ever grace to human beings including you.

 

 

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stranger  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote stranger Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2010 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by freedom-lover

Hi stranger

 
Thanks for your reply. I do not think your heart is circumcised. Have you really met the World (Jesus) to become a new creation by receiving Jesus as your Savior and Lord? Has the Holy Spirit come to your heart to live? Otherwise, still you are far from God and not the children of God.
 
That is your opinion, not a fact. the holy spirit doesnt exist and Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is not dead and he sure isnt a Lord or a savior. He is just a mere human being just like all the the other porphets pbut)
 
 
Do you have confidence to see your Creator in heaven face to face? If not, it indicates that you are not a child of God.
 
I will insha'allah see Allah face to face when I enter Heaven insha'Allah.
 
You are still separated far from the Father and Creator, the source of everything.
 
Again that is just your opinion.
 
Real children are not afraid of their father. Basically you stand before the Judge (God) like a criminal, anxiously waiting for a sentence you would receive from God. Basically you are in the court of the Judge instead of being in the house of the Father. You may have the wrong concept of fear of God.
 
When I stand before Allah, I do not think of him as my judge (although he will judge everyone on the day of judgement) and i most certainly do not feel like a criminal instead, i think of him as my creator who gave me a wonderful life and makes good things happen to me all the time. I think of how much he takes care of me and makes me happy. He put peace into my heart and I know he loves me. I absolutely love Allah and I know that his mercy is much greater than his wrath.
 
 You may think that being afraid or being scared before God is the fear of God and a sign of humbleness. Then you are wrong! The true fear of God is the acute awareness of the presence of God’s great power that produces in us a sense of awe and calls forth from us reverence, honour and respect.
Because I became a child of God through Jesus Christ, God is not my Judge anymore, but my Father. I am in the house of the Father instead of being in the court of the Judge. Do you see the difference now? You are in the court of the Judge as an afraid defendant anxiously waiting for a sentence from Him, while I am in the house of the Father as a loving child having an intimate fellowship with Him.
 
Allah is closer to me than my jugular vein. I do not think any part of the trinity can ever be that close to a human so no competition between Allah and the father or son or the holy spirit (well the trinity doesnt exist anyways). And i can talk to Allah directly and ask him for forgiveness without having anyone shed blood for my sins and insha'allah i will be forgiven for all my sins.

 

You were created to be loved by God, not to perform religious duties and rituals to take away God’s anger against you. God is not angry with you. He loves you with all His soul, with all His heart, with all His mind and with all His strength. Because "God is love" (1 John 4:16).

I was created to submit to Allah, not run around without a purpose. I know God is not angry with me. I KNOW Allah loves me which is why I am a muslim and i try to return the same love. I think you need to learn about islam more and learn ALL of the attributes of Allah. Wrath is just one attribute. In every chapter of the Quran, it says bismillahir rahman nir rahim which means, In the name of Allah, the most COMPASSIONATE and the most merciful. it doesn't begin with the angry God who wants to punish everyone.
 
 
i think you just do not want to be held accountable for your actions in this life. Well lets just face reality, everything has consequences.


Edited by stranger - 31 July 2010 at 5:51pm
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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2010 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by searching

One does not have to accept Jesus (PBUH) to be accepted by God.  God does not have a son.  Why would he decide to have a human son?  Why would He allow his own son to be killed in order to forgive us?  He can forgive whoever He chooses to forgive and would have no need to sacrifice His own son.  Christianity just doesn't make sense to me.  God is all powerful and has no need to get a human pregnant, have a son with her and then kill his own son to forgive other humans when, as I said, he can forgive whoever he chooses.  Think about it.  If you really think about it and don't just blindly accept it, it makes no sense at all.
 
Searching, I think you've bought into a misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus. He did not become God's son at the moment of incarnation. He has been from eternity past God's son. For the space of 33 years Jesus lived as a human, living with all the limitations that implies yet retaining his divine nature at the same time. God's justice requires a perfect sacrifice for sin. A sinless human being who shares God's nature has the infinite nature that can satisfy infinite justice and because God is eternal, making this payment for sin will not utterly destroy him as it would us. BTW, if God shares the human experience in the person of his son, he learns what it's like to be human. Yes he designed the human machine, but in the son God learned what it's like to be a human in a way he never could by any other means.
 
A perfect sacrifice had to be made or any notion of God being just is a sham. Can a just God forgive sin based upon nothing more than his good will? This would be tantamount to turning a blind eye to sin. "So you killed ten people when the guy at Starbucks screwed up your coffee? No Problem! Welcome to heaven" Instead, God poured out his infinite wrath on the infinite son, the only person in the universe who can withstand such wrath without being crushed. All he asks is that we trust that this sacrifice is all that is required to restore our relationship with God.
 
This Islamic notion that God will forgive for no reason is probably the principle reason I can't accept Islam. As you said, " If you really think about it and don't just blindly accept it, it makes no sense at all." Whenever someone asks me how I'm doing my standard answer is "better than I deserve". I know that there is nothing I can do to curry God's favor and I know a just God must punish sin. I also know enough about the universe to know there must be a balance to things. God can't forgive without something being there to balance the scales. Jesus' death reset the scale, and his resurrection served as proof that the balance had been restored.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2010 at 11:16pm
I understand that a guy who killed ten people would not just go into heaven. He would have to be punished for his sins. But why would God have a son, which I don't believe anyway, and then sacrifice him for something someone else did ie. Adam and Eve. Should the nice guy at Starbucks die to pay for the sins of the crazed murderer? Again, this makes no sense.

And God is all knowing, He doesn't need a human son to understand us. I just don't accept the beliefs of Christianity at all and that's not going to change no matter how many posts I read about Jesus being a savior and paying for our sins. He was a human and a prophet, not the son of God.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 11:26am
Wasn't it God who created the whole universe?
Wasn't he who created the day, the night and the four season - or better created planets and starts which move in a way that we perceive as day, night and seasons?
Wasn't he who made some places as deserts and others as forests?

I find it perfectly natural that, among with physical laws, he created also spiritual laws. We have to pray at certain time of the day because we belong to the big system of the Universe, and we have to be in harmony with it. We pray in a certain direction because it was choosen by God, as he chose the North Pole as the pole of magnetism. We humans are not only soul, we are also bodies, and our bodies require rituals.
Every mother knows that babies are quite and happy when they follow the same rituals every day. Why shouldn't a godly religion require rituals from us as well?
Of course the spirit, the heart shouldn't be neglected. But spirit and body should find harmony. It's important that the heart is clean, but we are required to clean the body as well before praying. Hearts should be "circumcized", as Jesus said, but this doesn't mean men don't need the "other" circumcision. The heart fasts by staying away from sins, but the stomach sometimes has to fast as well.
There is no dualism body vs soul in Islam.
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 1:09pm
That was a good explanation, Nura.
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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by searching

I understand that a guy who killed ten people would not just go into heaven. He would have to be punished for his sins. But why would God have a son, which I don't believe anyway, and then sacrifice him for something someone else did ie. Adam and Eve. Should the nice guy at Starbucks die to pay for the sins of the crazed murderer? Again, this makes no sense.

And God is all knowing, He doesn't need a human son to understand us. I just don't accept the beliefs of Christianity at all and that's not going to change no matter how many posts I read about Jesus being a savior and paying for our sins. He was a human and a prophet, not the son of God.
 
 
Then it sounds to me like you need to change your screen name from searching to found in that you seem to have found what you were looking for. Obviously Islam is sufficient for the life you're living on earth. Hope it's sufficient for the life that follows (though I have my doubts).
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote stranger Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by searching

That was a good explanation, Nura.
 i agree. i wish i could have put it like that.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote shamstar Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

 
Searching, I think you've bought into a misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus. He did not become God's son at the moment of incarnation. He has been from eternity past God's son. For the space of 33 years Jesus lived as a human, living with all the limitations that implies yet retaining his divine nature at the same time. God's justice requires a perfect sacrifice for sin. A sinless human being who shares God's nature has the infinite nature that can satisfy infinite justice and because God is eternal, making this payment for sin will not utterly destroy him as it would us. BTW, if God shares the human experience in the person of his son, he learns what it's like to be human. Yes he designed the human machine, but in the son God learned what it's like to be a human in a way he never could by any other means.


Jesus pbuh was not sinless.  He made a whip from cords, lost his cool, turned over the tables and drove out the money changers from the temple.  Obviosly in typical Bible fashion, Matthew, Mark and Luke place this event towards the end of his ministry, but John places it towards the begining at chapter 2.

Then there are the banned Gospels that were popular during early Christianity, but later expunged during the course of History because they went against the picture the church was trying to paint.  Amongst these forbidden books were the infancy accounts of Thomas giving a rare insight into the child Jesus pbuh; here it is written aged around 5, Jesus pbuh was hit on the shoulder from a stone thrown by a boy, Jesus pbuh caused the boy to drop dead for his mistake.  Jesus pbuh also made sparrows from mud on the day of Sabbath and blew life into them, causing them to fly away. 

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/6516
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 8:37pm
Squeegie,

You might be right about that. I'm basically arguing that the beliefs of Islam are correct but haven't converted yet. I'm not sure why. But I guess it's because it's such an important decision that I have to be absolutely sure before taking my Shahada.

Edited by searching - 31 July 2010 at 8:38pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 10:18pm
Hi searching

If people want, with a dozen of friends they could start the perfect religion in the world that sounds most logical to human beings. Do you not know that quite a large number of western intellectuals were drawn to communism and gave their lives because it made more sense to them? Now where is communism? Would those intellectuals still believe North Korea as the most ideal society in the world? They surely did not know what ordinary people went through inside, because it was hidden to them. Making sense to human beings is not the same as making sense to God. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" (Proverb 14:12)

You wrote the following post in this thread.
I really wish Islam wasn't so complicated. I wish it was just the belief in only one God, believing Muhammad (PBUH) was his last messenger and Qur'an being the word of God. I wish it didn't involve such precise, down to the minute prayer times and entering one place with the left and exiting with the right and the opposite for other places. There are prayers to remember for exiting and entering different places and other things like fasting or breaking fast. It just seems like anything one does has some rule or prayer attached to it. It seems like it would greatly complicate my life. Even fasting is so hard. I only made it 9 hours. My Muslim friend makes it 16+ hours and runs several miles at the end of the day, too. I could never do that. I really think I haven't converted because I'm so worried about not being able to keep up with all the demands of Islam.

Do you really experience joy (more precisely speaking, overflowing joy) out of these layers of religious rituals in Islam? Where is heavenly joy in you, which I and many Christians enjoy every day and all human beings deserve? You deserve much better than who you are now. You were created to be loved by God, not to perform religious duties and rituals to take away God's anger against you. God is not angry with you. God loves you with all His soul, with all His heart, with all His mind, and with all His strength. The best answer is found in the Bible. "God is love" (1 John 4:16). 

Edited by freedom-lover - 31 July 2010 at 10:47pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2010 at 11:13pm
Thank you for your reply. I don't think that Islam is like communism. That passed after a short time. Islam has been around for about 1400 years. I understand what you mean about the rituals. I still have concerns about that. But really praying only takes about 15-20 mins total for the day. That's not really a huge burden. And though I still feel a little intimidated about the part of pleasing Allah or making Him mad, the Qur'an repeatedly says that he is "Often Forgiving, Most Merciful." It wouldn't say this so many times if He wasn't forgiving of our errors or sins. I'm actually starting to feel better and better about Islam. Maybe I'll make a decision soon, insha'Allah.
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Hi searching

Thanks for your reply. Do you know the strongest love in nature? It is mother's love for her offsprings, in particular, human mother's love for her children. This is because she shed her own blood with great pain when delivering a new life. In fact it is simply a reflection of God' love for human beings through Jesus Christ, who shed His own blood with great pain in order to create a new life. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Did your God show such sacrificial love for human beings, because He loves them so much? Islam is not exception, and all religions claim that their God is most merciful. But what about sacrificial love for us?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (as a sacrifice for our sins) that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"
(John 3:16).
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2010 at 12:50am
I do not believe that Jesus PBUH was God's son.  And I don't think that it makes any sense that God himself would have to sacrifice his own son in order to forgive us, when he is all powerful and can forgive who He chooses to forgive.  This idea of him having a human son and then killing him just so that he can forgive us is absurd to me.  But I respect that this is your belief and have no problem with anyone who believes differently than me.
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