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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2010 at 6:55pm
That really doesn't make sense to me at all. Saying our good deeds aren't enough to allow us closeness to God or heaven seems ridiculous. Simply stating that one accepts Jesus as their personal savior is supposed to ne the way to God? I think that God would really rather that we do good deeds than say Jesus is our savior. Jesus was a prophet, not a God or son of God as is explained in the Qur'an which was the last book God revealed to humanity.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2010 at 11:33pm
Hi searching

Whether you think Jesus is the Savior or a human prophet does not affect his true nature. Your opinion does not change who Jesus really is. Your statement (Saying our good deeds aren't enough to allow us closeness to God or heaven seems ridiculous) really comes from your ignorance of the nature of God, which was well demonstrated in Torah such as Exodus 33:17-23. I kindly ask you a question. Have you ever read Torah carefully (hopefully through the help of the Holy Spirit)?

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death"
(Proverbs 14:12)

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Slave of God Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 4:49am

Hi freedom-lover

 

I'd like to ask you a question, why are we in this life? Why God created us?

Are we in this life to do whatever we want? Are we in this life to steal, to fraud, to commit adultery, to kill, or to destroy?

Tell me, do you want every body to do whatever he wants without punish and tell me God's forgiveness and God's glory?

If the life is like that, to believe that Jesus is the savior and then to whatever you want, so this is a chaos this doesn't represent the glory of God.

 

I will give an example if your boss in work told you "don't do this" and you did it then he gave you a chance and told you "don't do this again" and you did it again and every order of him you ignore it, then he left you without punish, should I then say "WOW, how great he is?"  Huh, that doesn't make any sense.

 

And about the sins and the good deeds, I think you didn't get it. Here how it works, if you made a bad work, it will be counted one sin, but if you did one good work, it will be counted ten good deeds, even more if you made a bad work then you asked God's forgiveness he will forgive you.

And forgiveness has condition (1. to stop doing that bad work---2. to regret ---3. to resolve not to make this bad work again---4. Making amends to those whom you have wronged, or asking for their forgiveness) remind you that the condition is to resolve not to make that bad work again, but he may do it again, and if he asked god's forgiveness again truly by its conditions, God will forgive him, and here is the glory of God he forgive you when you ask his forgiveness truly from your heart, but leaving you doing whatever you want then leave you without punishment and even you didn't ask his forgiveness, that doesn't represent the glory of God.

 

And in the after life, if your sins are more than your good deeds you will go to the hell for a while until your sins are finished, then you will go to the heaven, this is the justice, to punish who sinned and then reward him for his good deeds, but the one who have good deeds more than sins, then he will go to the heaven directly, but if you are not a believer from the beginning and you ignored religion and ignored God then you will go to the hell forever, that's it. I hope you understood it.

 

Peace be with you all.

Edited by Slave of God - 05 August 2010 at 7:02am
"All the praises and thanks be to Allah Who has guided us to this, never could we have found guidance, were it not that Allah had guided us!"
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 5:22am
I have not read the Torah. I have not read the bible from cover to cover. But there have been so many versions written and rewritten by humans that the Torah and the Bible are not necessarily the true word of God anymore. That is why the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH). This was the final book of God and remains the same as when it was originally revealed. It hasn't been translated multiple times, with the original version being gone. I am currently reading it and it is beautiful.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 6:03am
Originally posted by searching

I have not read the Torah. I have not read the bible from cover to cover. But there have been so many versions written and rewritten by humans that the Torah and the Bible are not necessarily the true word of God anymore.  

You are definitely incorrect about Torah and Tahakh .. I cannot speak for "Bibles" but I certainly do for Hebrew Scripture.
 


 
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shamstar  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote shamstar Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 7:38am
Grotham, earlist Torah is dated hundreds of years after the death of Moses pbuh.  One of those who helped write it, records how Moses pbuh predicted the rebellious Jews, claiming to be his followers, would in fact change his message after his death.


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Grotham  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 8:15am
Originally posted by shamstar

Grotham, earlist Torah is dated hundreds of years after the death of Moses pbuh.  One of those who helped write it, records how Moses pbuh predicted the rebellious Jews, claiming to be his followers, would in fact change his message after his death.




That's just more of your unsubstantiated claptrap.  It didn't happen.  The  Torah is unchanged and uncorrupted.
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jimdi3  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jimdi3 Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 8:57am
Originally posted by searching

I have not read the Torah. I have not read the bible from cover to cover. But there have been so many versions written and rewritten by humans that the Torah and the Bible are not necessarily the true word of God anymore. That is why the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH). This was the final book of God and remains the same as when it was originally revealed. It hasn't been translated multiple times, with the original version being gone. I am currently reading it and it is beautiful.
 
 
Let us not have double standards now. You refer to translations do you not? The originals were not in English. The copies of the originals do not differ except for scriptorial errors.
 
I regularly refer to differing versions (translations) of the Qur'an. All differ and further more the comments enclosed in brackets explaining the translated passage also differ.
 
The final (sic) book is not the same as that spoken by Muhammad, as there are leaves missing......
 
ha well .... no double standards please.
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 9:47am
The translations may not be entirely correct, but in Arabic, the Qur'an hasn't been changed and many people still read Arabic. Many Muslims try to learn Arabic to understand the Qur'an better. This is MUCH different than the multitudes of bible versions like New Testament, Old Testament, King James Version, etc. The Qur'an exists in Arabic as it was revealed. Attempts to translate it into so many languages of the world so that all can understand it are known by Muslims to be less accurate than reading the original Arabic. But there are no King whoever or new or old testament or other versions. The Qur'an is simply the Qur'an. If one can read Arabic, she will be able to read the Qur'an as it was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH).

Edited by searching - 05 August 2010 at 9:50am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 10:00am

Hi searching and shamstar

 

Although Jews and Christians have different perspectives, we Christians appreciate greatly the great effort of Jewish people to preserve Godís words. Because the Bible was transcribed by human hands for so many years, there could be a few errors in words and phrases. But I do not really mind that. The only difference between Jewish believers and Christians is that Jews try to interpret Godís words from the Jewish perspective, while Christians try to interpret them from the perspective of all human beings. This is because the Bible was given to all people (through Jewish people). But we Christians do not claim that the Old Testament was corrupted, in order to justify our belief against Judaism. We do not accuse Jews of the corruption of the Old Testament in order to start a new religion. Jewish people did their best to preserve the Bible, which is greatly appreciated by all human beings. Likewise Jews and Christians do not accuse Muslims of corrupting their own scripture in order to justify our belief. In this respect Muslims are exceptional among all the believers of the world.

 

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 1:36pm
I don't think that this is really a criticism Muslims have against Jews and Christians. Muslims respect the Torah and the Bible but believe they have been rewritten so many times by humans that they were corrupted. But Muslims believe that in their original form, they were both the word of God. If you wrote books and found that people had rewritten them so much that they change some of your original meaning, wouldn't you want to give them one last book that wasn't corrupted? This way it would be clear what you were communicating. It would clear up errors that started being called your own words. The Qur'an is the last revealed book and was revealed to show humanity what God wishes for us to know.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 2:17pm

Hi searching

 

Thanks for your comment. Your accusation is very arbitrary and thus groundless. If certain sections of the Bible are not consistent with the religious rules and traditions of Islam, they argue it was corrupted as they please. But if is consistent with theirs, they argue it is genuine as they wish. When they are asked where the original is, they reply it is permanently lost. What a convenient answer! No, the Bible (the Old and New Testaments) was not corrupted as your scripture was not corrupted. Muslims are the only people in the world who accuse others of corrupting the scriptures in order to justify their own religion of Islam. Did you see Hindus do that? Did you see Buddhists do that? Did you see Jews and Christians do that?

 



Edited by freedom-lover - 05 August 2010 at 2:23pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 3:03pm
Freedom-lover,

have you ever heard about Biblical criticism? You can refere to this website

http://www.biblecriticism.com/

"One of the dominant ways of understanding how Biblical narrative emerged was and is the documentary hypothesis which posits four separate and independent story lines fused together by a series of editors who kept what fit their compositional agenda and discarded material which didn't. " This is a quote by Tzemah Yoreh,  the youngest PhD in the history of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem's Faculty of Humanities and a professor of Bible at the American Jewish University in Los Angeles.

Modern biblical criticism begins with the 17th century philosophers and theologians -Thomas Hobbes, Benedict Spinoza, Richard Simonand others - who began to ask questions about the origin of the biblical text, especially the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). They asked specifically who had written these books: according to tradition their author was Moses, but these critics found contradictions and inconsistencies in the text that, they claimed, made Mosaic autorship
improbable. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_criticism).

I admit this is all copy and paste, and I'm not saying that Biblical criticism is right, but you cannot seriously claim that: "
No, the Bible (the Old and New Testaments) was not corrupted as your scripture was not corrupted. Muslims are the only people in the world who accuse others of corrupting the scriptures."
I accept that you, a Christian, believe in the Bible as I believe in the Qur'an. But Muslims are no way the only ones who claim that the Bible we have nowadays is not the original one. 


Edited by Nura - 05 August 2010 at 3:11pm
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 3:43pm

Hi Nura

 

Thanks for your prompt reply as well as for your research on the topic. Scripture criticism is not a problem with me. I am open to it. Under the same scrutiny no scripture is above reproach to some degree. Proper criticism of the concerned scripture is done best by the people who practice and know the concerned faith because they know the context and history better than anyone else. In your comment you also forgot the most important part of my sentence.

 

Muslims are the only people in the world who accuse others of corrupting the scriptures in order to justify their own religion of Islam.

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