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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 5:40pm
Muslims don't criticize other scriptures to justify their own religion.  I think that Muslims show respect for the other texts by saying that they were originally the word of God and therefore should be respected, but that they have been corrupted by being rewritten.  But as I said, there is still respect for these books.  
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freedom-lover
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 6:08pm

Hi searching

 

Thanks for your comment. Now you seem to tone down the accusation in front of confrontation. I disagree with you. The Bible was not corrupted as the Quran was not corrupted. These are some of the important verses in Christian faith. Were these verses corrupted? If yes, when and which part of them was corrupted? You do not know, because the original was permanently lost? By now I am very familiar with this kind of  childish argument.

 

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matthew 26:28)

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (as a sacrifice for our sins) that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16)

 

The Bible was not corrupted as the Quran was not corrupted!

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kadhim Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 8:34pm
The Qur'an exists in Arabic as it was revealed.


Nonsense. Since the koran is a single, small book that was created over a very short period of time (decades rather than centuries) and by a much smaller group of authors (a handful versus hundreds) its evolution is more narrowly prescribed than that of its more robust and comprehensive competitors like the Torah, the New Testament or the Vedas.

The case can easily be made that ‘Uthman’s Rescension was a profound example of tampering. Or a more objective view would be that it was part of process by which the koran was created by mere humans, Uthman being the primary author.

As is readily apparent to anyone not participating with a predisposed bias, the tawatur of the koran is irreparably broken in three places. From most recent to least recent they are:

1. The ‘Uthmanic rescension.
2. The Compilation under Abu Bakr.
3. The chain of transmittal prior to Muhammad.

This is your problem. And it is not solved by deflecting criticism at the texts of others. So yes, the words you use absolutely matter. You use the words “versions” as a slur, not an objective label. You use it to denigrate other scriptures as inferior and false.

How many versions of the Koran did Uthman destroy before he authored his final version?



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by freedom-lover

Hi searching and shamstar

 

Although Jews and Christians have different perspectives, we Christians appreciate greatly the great effort of Jewish people to preserve God’s words. Because the Bible was transcribed by human hands for so many years, there could be a few errors in words and phrases.  


If there were/are mistakes in transcribing Torah, that scroll was/is destroyed.  There cannot be a mistake, an addition, a corruption or so much as an extra dot of ink on a Torah scroll anywhere.  It absolutely does not have scriptural errors. 


One only has to know the painstaking process by which Torah is still scribed today, as in ancient times right down to the same hand made special ink, to understand how important it is that Hebrew Scripture does not have errors.



But I do not really mind that. The only difference between Jewish believers and Christians is that Jews try to interpret God’s words from the Jewish perspective, while Christians try to interpret them from the perspective of all human beings. 


There are quite a few differences that are very evident without interpretation, i.e., belief in Jesus as moshiah; original sin.



This is because the Bible was given to all people (through Jewish people). 


Torah/Tanakh were given to all who will accept them.  It was not a new and old testament Moses had, it was Torah.  Jews do not even use the term "old testament". 


But we Christians do not claim that the Old Testament was corrupted, in order to justify our belief against Judaism. We do not accuse Jews of the corruption of the Old Testament in order to start a new religion. Jewish people did their best to preserve the Bible, which is greatly appreciated by all human beings.


Hebrew Scripture is preserved today as it was yesterday.  We do not have different versions .. but we also do not control what others may do/have done to Hebrew Scripture.


Likewise Jews and Christians do not accuse Muslims of corrupting their own scripture in order to justify our belief. In this respect Muslims are exceptional among all the believers of the world.

I have as yet to see proof of this corruption complaint that is often lodged at Christians and Jews about our respective scriptures.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2010 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by searching

I don't think that this is really a criticism Muslims have against Jews and Christians.  

The criticism is lodged often enough  for it to cause a problem ...  as it has already been in this very thread.



Muslims respect the Torah and the Bible but believe they have been rewritten so many times by humans that they were corrupted. 

And that just is not true re Torah and Tanakh.
  You have been given false information.


But Muslims believe that in their original form, they were both the word of God.  

Torah and Tanakh are both still the word of G-d/G-d inspired and in their original forms.  Again, you have been given false information or choose to believe falsely.  It appears this is the problem of the criticizers, not the ones receiving the complaints.  No valid proof exists.


If you wrote books and found that people had rewritten them so much that they change some of your original meaning, wouldn't you want to give them one last book that wasn't corrupted?  

Please provide proof of your claims of corruption.


This way it would be clear what you were communicating. It would clear up errors that started being called your own words. The Qur'an is the last revealed book and was revealed to show humanity what God wishes for us to know.
 


Thanks but no thanks.  We have the Original and it works just fine as it has for thousands of years.  We need no additions, changes, corruptions or deletions to know what G-d said to Mankind.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2010 at 3:05am
There is plenty of evidence that the bible has been rewritten.  Here is a quote from a website:  "Let me begin by saying that the King James "version" of the Bible is in English. There was no English language until the year 1066 AD when the Normans invaded the Saxxons. Therefore the English Bible cannot be anything like what any of the prophets spoke or understood, as it did not exist in their times."  This was by Yusuf Estes.  The link is http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/bible_closer_look.htm#ch1. 

This is a website about a book written by a former Christian who researched the bible and it's many versions. 

So no, freedom lover, I didn't tone down my comments because I feared they were incorrect.  I just don't wish to argue with you.  And my choice is between converting to Islam and just staying as I am with no religion.  But you seem to want to push Jesus on me (in the Christian belief) so I pushed back with reasons, then you got mad.  So let's not argue about who's right or wrong.  I'm not ever going to accept Christianity and I might very well accept Islam.  You can believe as you believe, that's good.  Just don't try to force your beliefs on me.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2010 at 7:32am
Originally posted by freedom-lover

Hi Nura

 

Thanks for your prompt reply as well as for your research on the topic. Scripture criticism is not a problem with me. I am open to it. Under the same scrutiny no scripture is above reproach to some degree. Proper criticism of the concerned scripture is done best by the people who practice and know the concerned faith because they know the context and history better than anyone else. In your comment you also forgot the most important part of my sentence.

 

Muslims are the only people in the world who accuse others of corrupting the scriptures in order to justify their own religion of Islam.



Hi f.l., in fact "Biblical criticism" doesn't mean criticizing the message of the Bible or its contents, it's a historical research about its Author(s) and its changing during the time.

Sorry for misunderstanding your quote...It's true that Islam sees the Qur'an as the last message to humanity and states that previous scriptures don't exist anymore in their original form. But, even if we still had them, God would have sent Prophet Muhammad anyway because (from an Islamic point of view) His message is directed to the whole humanity while previous messages were directed to a particular people in a particular time. It's more or less the same you said about Jews and Christians.
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2010 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Grotham




Thanks but no thanks.  We have the Original and it works just fine as it has for thousands of years.  We need no additions, changes, corruptions or deletions to know what G-d said to Mankind.



What do you think about the discipline I quoted in my previous post, for example

http://www.biblecriticism.com/

"One of the dominant ways of understanding how Biblical narrative emerged was and is the documentary hypothesis which posits four separate and independent story lines fused together by a series of editors who kept what fit their compositional agenda and discarded material which didn't. " ( Tzemah Yoreh,  the youngest PhD in the history of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem's Faculty of Humanities and a professor of Bible at the American Jewish University in Los Angeles.)
 
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2010 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Nura

Originally posted by Grotham




Thanks but no thanks.  We have the Original and it works just fine as it has for thousands of years.  We need no additions, changes, corruptions or deletions to know what G-d said to Mankind.



What do you think about the discipline I quoted in my previous post, for example

http://www.biblecriticism.com/

"One of the dominant ways of understanding how Biblical narrative emerged was and is the documentary hypothesis which posits four separate and independent story lines fused together by a series of editors who kept what fit their compositional agenda and discarded material which didn't. " ( Tzemah Yoreh,  the youngest PhD in the history of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem's Faculty of Humanities and a professor of Bible at the American Jewish University in Los Angeles.)
 


I think that quote is too broad based to even comment on.  If it is put in context with a particular subject, it would, perhaps, have more meaning.  You do realize that Torah and Tanakh translations into other languages each have quite extensive commentaries one can utilize, don't you?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2010 at 11:01am
Originally posted by searching


So no, freedom lover, I didn't tone down my comments because I feared they were incorrect.  I just don't wish to argue with you.  And my choice is between converting to Islam and just staying as I am with no religion.  But you seem to want to push Jesus on me (in the Christian belief) so I pushed back with reasons, then you got mad.  So let's not argue about who's right or wrong.  I'm not ever going to accept Christianity and I might very well accept Islam.  You can believe as you believe, that's good.  Just don't try to force your beliefs on me.
 
 

Hi searching

 

Thanks for your comment. Of course which belief you choose is your personal decision. If I am not mistaken, I have not forced my belief on you, but tried to share with you my joyful experience with Jesus. As far as I know, I was not mad at you or anybody in the forum. Apparently your Muslim friends showed you only the bright sides of their religion for a purpose, but I tried to share with you their hidden emotions which I learned from honest conversations with my Muslim friends. They are ordinary Muslims, not Imams nor Islam critics. It is better to know both sides to make a decision.

 

I have had several Muslim friends from Iran, India and Morocco. After a number of conversations with them, I have found their common spiritual journey. I shared this story with other Muslims without any objection. If I am wrong, please correct me. Their spiritual journey is as if they were crossing a huge canyon through a narrow bridge made of ropes. They are afraid that they might fall off the shaky bridge to the bottom of the canyon by disobeying one of the religious duties they were supposed to follow at all times. They are not sure if they would meet their Creator face to face in heaven by successfully crossing the seemingly endless bridge. They appear weary and burdened with keeping all the religious duties and requirements at every moment. They are guilty of breaking one of them and afraid of Allah’s punishment for their failure. They are uncertain about their eternity in heaven in spite of their hard efforts.

 

In contrast to their common spiritual journey, my spiritual journey can be summarised into two words, JOY and HOLINESS. I am joyful because by the grace of God through Jesus I am confident of my eternity in heaven and the heavy burden of life was lifted from my shoulders. I am also becoming holy because the deep experience of God’s love through Jesus causes me to gladly stay away from sin. My heart overflows with joy, thanks and freedom in a loving relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

 

 

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2010 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by freedom-lover

If I am not mistaken, I have not forced my belief on you,
 
That is exactly what you are doing here. Forcing your belief on us. You and the pevious you.
 
You are trying to make the people who ARE worshipping God into worshipping the creation of God.
 
 


Edited by Traveller - 06 August 2010 at 12:35pm
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2010 at 1:25pm

Hi Traveller

 

Thanks for your comment. I disagree with you. As far as I know, I have not forced anybody with fear of punishment and threat of hell fire. I have just shared my joyful experience with other Muslim readers. If people really enjoyed the move they watched and were fully satisfied with it, would they not recommend it to their friends? What words have I used more to Muslim readers in this forum, hell fire and God’s anger, or love and joy? Here is one of the paragraphs I used to post for the readers to read. Do you feel forcing, fear and threat by reading it? I am convinced that we were created to be loved by God, not to fulfill religious duties and rituals to take away God’s anger against us.

 

When my children were small, I remember the deep satisfaction of watching them sleep. Sometimes the day had been filled with problems and disobedience, but asleep they looked contended, secure, and peaceful, and I was reminded of how much I love them. They do not have to do anything for me to love and enjoy them. I am happy to just watch them breathing, because they are my own children. This is how God loves His children. When they are sleeping, God gazes at them with love because they were His idea. He loves them as if they were the only person on earth. You may have had unpleasable parents or leaders as you were growing up. Please do not assume God feels that way about you or God were like them! He knows you are incapable of being perfect and sinless. God loves us just as we are, because we are His own children God is not angry with you. He loves you with all His soul, with all His heart, with all His mind and with all His strength. Because "God is love" (1 John 4:16).

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Amjad Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2010 at 12:49am
Originally posted by freedom-lover

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-CA><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Hi searching and shamstar</SPAN>


<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-CA><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </o:p></SPAN>


<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN style="COLOR: black; mso-ansi-: EN; mso-bidi-font-size: 9.0pt; mso-fareast-: KO"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Although Jews and Christians have different perspectives, we Christians appreciate greatly the great effort of Jewish people to preserve God’s words. Because the Bible was transcribed by human hands for so many years, there could be a few errors in words and phrases. But I do not really mind that. The only difference between Jewish believers and Christians is that Jews try to interpret God’s words from the Jewish perspective, while Christians try to interpret them from the perspective of all human beings. This is because the Bible was given to all people (through Jewish people). But we Christians do not claim that the Old Testament was corrupted, in order to justify our belief against Judaism. We do not accuse Jews of the corruption of the Old Testament in order to start a new religion. Jewish people did their best to preserve the Bible, which is greatly appreciated by all human beings. Likewise Jews and Christians do not accuse Muslims of corrupting their own scripture in order to justify our belief. In this respect Muslims are exceptional among all the believers of the world.<o:p></o:p></SPAN>


 




I do believe that Bible - as it was revealed - is the words of God and respect it as a holy book? Do you believe that Quran is the words of God?

Edited by Amjad - 07 August 2010 at 2:12am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2010 at 1:56am
I have come so close to saying my Shahada but something held me back.  I think that it's still the concern about the complexity of Islam and being a good Muslim.  It seems a daunting task to learn to pray in Arabic and in certain ways and also commit to doing that 5 times a day, every day for the rest of my life.  I don't know if I would be a good Muslim.  But I believe in only one God.  I believe the Muhammad (PBUH) was the last prophet and that the Qur'an is the final word of God revealed to Muhammad.  I also believe Jesus (PBUH) was a prophet.  I believe in angels.  I don't really know what to think of the jinn as I don't understand them well at all. 

So what's wrong with me?  I have the beliefs of a Muslim yet I can't get myself to convert.  Why don't I have faith in myself that I can be a good Muslim and learn to pray and fast and do what good Muslims are supposed to do?  I'm so happy at masjid.  I feel content there, learning about Islam.  I wish I could just say my Shahada.  I went to the masjid to see the Imam but I couldn't bring myself to go into the men's side to find him.  That was also partly because at that time, there were no women there.  There was only one car in the parking lot and I just assumed it was that of the Imam because the asr prayer was at 6:30 and I got there at 7.  The point is that I didn't even look to see if he was there.  I just kind of backed out on saying my Shahada.
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