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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2010 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

salam Cyra

the OP was discussing this question "what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
 
Grotham story was trying to answer this question that Islam is injustice to women
 
I dont agree as his story can happen in any part of the world
I dont know about the culture in pakistan but generalization cant be the truth.there might be muslims who do opress women but not Islam.I am a Muslim, my parent are Muslim and i was never opressed but i can claim this was because of Islam


Thank you sister.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:26am
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by searching

This type of thing, as I said, is a cultural problem.   No kidding?  I sort of knew that. 


God was trying to stop this horrible practice by condemning it in the Qur'an.  But people don't always do what they should.  So one really can't attribute this to Islam when the most important holy book in Islam specifically prohibits it. 

Then it's time to take the bull by the horns and teach/preach to the ill-informed. 

There is female infanticide in China and other countries.  Is this also the fault of Islam?  Of course not, it is a disgusting cultural practice. 
 

Of course it's not.  Do you take me for a fool saying that? 

In China this problem would be addressed in a different way .. such as limiting the # of children a couple can have.   I doubt Islam with all its flowery words would make a dent in "cultural" Chinese.  


If you knew much about anthropology, you would know that this practice is not disgusting to the barbarian cultures that practice it. 


If I knew much about anthropology, I would know that it's not disgusting to the cultures that practice it?  Really?  I don't think you need to know so much about anthropology to know that the cultures practicing it don't think it's disgusting.  Of course they don't.  If they did, they wouldn't practice it.   This is just common sense, not anthropology.

And if you knew that this was a cultural problem, as you said "No kidding? I sort of knew that," then you wouldn't be posting this in an Islamic forum would you?  You'd be posting it in an international women's rights forum or some other venue.  And the words of the Qur'an are not "flowery," they are the commands of God to the Muslims.  And true Muslims are supposed to follow them.  Do you also think that the words of the Torah are "flowery?" 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Meriam Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 4:56am
Originally posted by Grotham

My new born god daughter was left on the streets of a small town in Pakistan to die by her maternal (Muslim) grandfather because she was a female and the mother had refused to move to the US with her husband. 

The American father's extended family heard what was happening to the baby and rescued her from the street.  They then notified the American father.  The father and his father were rushed through .gov channels to where the baby had been taken by their family members and brought her out.  She is 9 years old now, absolutely beautiful, intelligent and lives a wonderful life in the USA. 

The baby's (Muslim) mother was sold to an older man as wife #4 from whom she is now divorced with even more children she has a hard time caring for. 
Hello Grotham,
The story of the baby that you had reported here is so touching and dramatic but what is more tragedic than this,  is to take Islam as an argument to deny this act and describe it as an absolute nonsense...
Islam is a religion as judaism ; both are sent by God to us for our good, for our guidance to the light...a light of good manners and valuable morals...a light of mercy and justice......
The Qu'ran is its pillar of Divine verdicts and not ''flowery words''to sing or to say for vain......
Grotham, we are all people of the BOOK ''Ahlo elkitab''..then we should respect the belief of each one without any mockery or any Hostility because you know well that all Holybooks are sent by ONE GOD who is mine, yours, her , his and their Lord.....sent for one aim: To worship ONE God ......and I don't think even a second of time that any Holybook as it is sent by God trys to divert us from the way of virtues or values to make us do like this injuste gesture on the right of an innocent as that baby....
this is not acceptable anymore by any reasonable human's mind...
 
And as my sister Searching said that this bad behaviour comes from a specific environmental culture there in that coin of that land , and not from religion....
 
Grotham, I said already that we should be more objective and wise in any debate without any Bias to this or that sect nor prejudice but just a seek for the truth.......
 
Your story seems to deflect the discussion off topic not because any disagreement but because the question was:
''what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
The answer exceeds what you speak about Grotham even if you had spoken about a female and her hardship because of her sex despite of her childhood....
 
In all cases, Brothers and sisters, thank you for each one who has interested to reply to this request.
Greetings
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 8:45am
Originally posted by The_Seeker



When did I say I wasn't concerned about these issues? It's a human rights issue, so what are YOU doing to help stop such crimes? 

 I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  


And why do you assume I'm not doing anything? You have a nasty habit of assuming the worst in Muslims.

Actually, I have a very good opinion of Muslims I know personally who live the words of Qur'an - they don't just talk and preach, they act and in doing so present a positive picture of Islam in a day and time when that is hard to do given circumstances.



Again, you are assuming no Muslim here is doing anything. 

 When no one is speaking out about the injustices but just type words, one can honestly "assume" they are doing nothing because they don't bother to mention what they are doing ... they just give opinions based on script and say how it "ought to be according to...." but don't give personal life experiences.



You really like to blame people, don't you. 

No, I don't but I will call out the injustices and apathy when I see and experience them as was done with my god daughter. 

You could also help instead of blaming Muslims for the world's ills. 

What makes you think I haven't?

Honestly, you are just taking this thread around in circles. You tried to blame Islam for what happened, 

I explained a personal situation as it happened with all its warts.



then when you failed to produce any credible evidence that Islam condones violence against kids/women/fill-in-the-blank-here, 

The subject was not Islam was at fault, the subject of my story is what happened in a Muslim country to a Muslim child and woman committed by Muslims and no Muslim entity stopped this near tragedy.
  That is not saying Islam is at fault, it is saying the people involved were at fault.  Big difference


you accused us of not caring. Then when we say we care, you accuse us of taking no action. 

I didn't read any caring about the baby involved or the consequences of the situation, only defensiveness at how Islam isn't at fault and then a bunch of flowery words that stopped nothing because, obviously, the Muslims involved don't practice what is supposedly preached to them.

You have such a deep-seated hatred of Islam that nothing we say or do will satisfy you. 

You speak falsely about me and, again, you are not my judge. 



As a Jew, you should understand the consequences of playing the blame-game and using collective punishment against an entire religion.


I did no collective punishment blame game talk against an entire religion.  I spoke to the circumstances of a (one) situation on the ground which you and most of your cohorts missed the point of entirely and delved into needless defensiveness.  So much for action, seeker, you just type more meaningless words ... trying to do a blame game of your own on me.    LOL
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Meriam

Hello Grotham,
The story of the baby that you had reported here is so touching and dramatic but what is more tragedic than this,  is to take Islam as an argument to deny this act and describe it as an absolute nonsense...
Islam is a religion as judaism ; both are sent by God to us for our good, for our guidance to the light...a light of good manners and valuable morals...a light of mercy and justice......
The Qu'ran is its pillar of Divine verdicts and not ''flowery words''to sing or to say for vain......
Grotham, we are all people of the BOOK ''Ahlo elkitab''..then we should respect the belief of each one without any mockery or any Hostility because you know well that all Holybooks are sent by ONE GOD who is mine, yours, her , his and their Lord.....sent for one aim: To worship ONE God ......and I don't think even a second of time that any Holybook as it is sent by God trys to divert us from the way of virtues or values to make us do like this injuste gesture on the right of an innocent as that baby....
this is not acceptable anymore by any reasonable human's mind...
 
And as my sister Searching said that this bad behaviour comes from a specific environmental culture there in that coin of that land , and not from religion....
 
Grotham, I said already that we should be more objective and wise in any debate without any Bias to this or that sect nor prejudice but just a seek for the truth.......
 
Your story seems to deflect the discussion off topic not because any disagreement but because the question was:
''what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
The answer exceeds what you speak about Grotham even if you had spoken about a female and her hardship because of her sex despite of her childhood....
 
In all cases, Brothers and sisters, thank you for each one who has interested to reply to this request.
Greetings
 


And I explained  myself quite adequately in a situation involving a woman and a baby.  That you fail to see the point and mistake it to be something else, is your problem. 

You see what happens here when you think someone disagrees with you?  The rest of you, sans one, pile on like a pack of hungry wolves ready to tear apart the one who seems to disagree and deflect the topic yourselves while failing to look inward for the answers. 

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Grotham



You speak falsely about me and, again, you are not my judge. 




It stinks having people make assumptions about you, doesn't it? You're right, I am not your judge (only God is), and likewise, you are not our judge.

This is an internet forum. Flowery or not, all we have on here are words.




Edited by The_Seeker - 23 August 2010 at 11:50am
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Grotham



The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


You make statements like this and then wonder why we get defensive? Whether you intended to or not, you are pitting on religion against another and calling Islam inferior. Yes, we are insulted by this.

Do you honestly think there are no Islamic aid groups in Pakistan (and other ME countries) working to help the children/orphans/women and others?

So again you are assuming there are no Muslims working to stop these horrific practices.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Meriam Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:56am
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham



The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


You make statements like this and then wonder why we get defensive? Whether you intended to or not, you are pitting on religion against another and calling Islam inferior. Yes, we are insulted by this.

Do you honestly think there are no Islamic aid groups in Pakistan (and other ME countries) working to help the children/orphans/women and others?

So again you are assuming there are no Muslims working to stop these horrific practices.
Brother the Seeker,
thank you for your clarfication here .
Go ahead...The right has always its tongue to speak with...
The right can never be hidden or mute although the most powerful voices become more and more height......
God bless you and don't mind ....The right still heigher than the wrong and the nonsense forever until the Day of Judgement.
Salam
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Meriam  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Meriam Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by Meriam

Hello Grotham,
The story of the baby that you had reported here is so touching and dramatic but what is more tragedic than this,  is to take Islam as an argument to deny this act and describe it as an absolute nonsense...
Islam is a religion as judaism ; both are sent by God to us for our good, for our guidance to the light...a light of good manners and valuable morals...a light of mercy and justice......
The Qu'ran is its pillar of Divine verdicts and not ''flowery words''to sing or to say for vain......
Grotham, we are all people of the BOOK ''Ahlo elkitab''..then we should respect the belief of each one without any mockery or any Hostility because you know well that all Holybooks are sent by ONE GOD who is mine, yours, her , his and their Lord.....sent for one aim: To worship ONE God ......and I don't think even a second of time that any Holybook as it is sent by God trys to divert us from the way of virtues or values to make us do like this injuste gesture on the right of an innocent as that baby....
this is not acceptable anymore by any reasonable human's mind...
 
And as my sister Searching said that this bad behaviour comes from a specific environmental culture there in that coin of that land , and not from religion....
 
Grotham, I said already that we should be more objective and wise in any debate without any Bias to this or that sect nor prejudice but just a seek for the truth.......
 
Your story seems to deflect the discussion off topic not because any disagreement but because the question was:
''what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
The answer exceeds what you speak about Grotham even if you had spoken about a female and her hardship because of her sex despite of her childhood....
 
In all cases, Brothers and sisters, thank you for each one who has interested to reply to this request.
Greetings
 


And I explained  myself quite adequately in a situation involving a woman and a baby.  That you fail to see the point and mistake it to be something else, is your problem. 

You see what happens here when you think someone disagrees with you?  The rest of you, sans one, pile on like a pack of hungry wolves ready to tear apart the one who seems to disagree and deflect the topic yourselves while failing to look inward for the answers. 

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 
Thanks Grotham for your comment.
Sister, as I said, I don't overlook any word in your reported story...
Such many brothers and sisters here and me among them said you already that the baby's hardship is so touching and  absolutely refused as bad behaviour coming by muslim or non muslim man......
The problematic is not here , it is not to cry or to not forwards this story...
The problematic resides in what you want to say and you said already through this story ...
If you want just to offend to any religion as Islam , we can stand up and we say: No Grotham...The meaning and the morals of any right religion as it is sent by God the All Mighty the merciful, are so heigher than this nonsense done by some of people who don't understand well the value of their religion's verdicts....
You belong rto people of the Book , I guess, sister and you know or supposed to understand well this coin .
But if you want just to discuss one of the injuste aspect on the right of woman as a female refering to some injuste cultural customs in some corners of the earth, we can say: Yes, yre welcome sister..
It is not like you said:''a pack of hungry wolves ready to tear apart the one who seems to disagree''..
No grotham, we are not here in war but in a forum supposed to be open to argue and discuss without hurt nor lies..without any offend to any other sacred thing as Religion....Religion whatever it is from Judaism to Islam , is the justice itself and can never be a source of any evil...
If there is any evil or bad manner, this can comes only from ourselves as imperfect man.
By the way, I repeat for millions that the Difference in opinions is not a torn bridge but it is a continued way to complementarity...
This is the reason.
And if the language of my question seems to be  , as you said sister, less coherant so it would be more reasonable than to do a feedback and focus on it to make it more coherent ....
If there is any wise assumption from you Grotham, it is welcome.
Thanks and Peace
 


Edited by Meriam - 23 August 2010 at 12:31pm
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Cyra  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Cyra Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by mai moslemah

salam Cyra

the OP was discussing this question "what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
 
Grotham story was trying to answer this question that Islam is injustice to women
 
I dont agree as his story can happen in any part of the world
I dont know about the culture in pakistan but generalization cant be the truth.there might be muslims who do opress women but not Islam.I am a Muslim, my parent are Muslim and i was never opressed but i can claim this was because of Islam


Thank you sister.
 
Then, I'm not entirely sure I understand the question.  I have been dealt personal injustices related to culture via many muslim's misinterpretation of islam.   I have been oppressed. 
 
ME muslims don't understand their own religion.  I base this on the fact that many can't seperate their religion from their cultural practices.  Religious law and civil law should  be 2 seperate things.  Religious law should be personal, not national.  Too much room for error, otherwise.   Why is it that in the time of the prophet (PBUH), women were so revered that their opinions counted, that they were allowed to pray in the same space as the men, that they could teach to the masses, they were allowed to fight alongside the men?  Women in islam have lost a lot of ground in the days since.  Sure, they still have their basic rights...but more often than not, those rights are usurped because the opinion of a man is held in higher regard.  Sure, on a personal level some of the men may treat their wife as a queen, but overall?  Nuh-uh.  On a personal level, why is it a man can say "You are divorced.," 3 times and that's that,  but if a woman wants it, she has to jump through so many hoops and then still ends up having to stay married to someone she doesn't want to be married to?  Like a woman doesn't know what is best for her?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:51pm

Hi readers

 

As I read many posts and articles, I have observed much difference in the perspectives of Muslims and non-Muslims on several issues. Many readers in this forum have discussed the status of women in Islam. While non-Muslims argue women are discriminated in Islamic societies, Muslims argue they are equally or even better treated. Quite likely one of the groups is mistaken. Here I invoke a relevant example from former communist countries to understand the difference. But this does not mean communism is the same as Islam. During seventies, some Soviet diplomats in Paris asked the Kremlin to allow them to return to Moscow. Their reason was that they could not live any more in Paris because there was no freedom and no democracy! I can imagine two possibilities. First, they knew there was plenty of freedom in Paris compared with Moscow. But as part of advertisement to the world that communism is the best ideology in the world, they pretended that there was no freedom in Paris. Second, they really believed that there was plenty of freedom in Moscow but not in Paris, because their definition of freedom is totally different from the rest of the world. Through years of controlled education in school and home their perspective was changed completely. I am not sure if the first case or the second one or another explains much difference between Muslims and non-Muslims on many issues. Just feel free to share your answers with other readers.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Cyra Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:55pm
Well said, freedom-lover.  Another POV to consider...
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham



The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


You make statements like this and then wonder why we get defensive? Whether you intended to or not, you are pitting on religion against another and calling Islam inferior. Yes, we are insulted by this.

Do you honestly think there are no Islamic aid groups in Pakistan (and other ME countries) working to help the children/orphans/women and others?

So again you are assuming there are no Muslims working to stop these horrific practices.


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Grotham



I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  




You are obviously passionate about issues concerning children and women. Those you represent are lucky to have someone who is caring with a big heart. This is a very awesome quality for someone to have - if only more could be like you.

While I stand behind what I said, I think it's important that we look towards the good and work together to help those in need, regardless of religion, race, creed, etc.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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