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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Grotham


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.


I don't doubt the tragic story you wrote about. That was never in question. My feelings were that Islam was being insulted. That was my perception. And to a certain extent you're right, that is my problem. But I think anyone of any religion will become defensive when they perceive their religion under attack. It's only natural to defend what we believe and hold dearly.

I do try to help those who are oppressed through my own means. But it's not something I share for fear that it will make it appear that I am bragging or helping for my own personal gain.

I'm not trying to diminish your work in any way, as your job has a direct impact helping people. I also didn't see you as bragging or anything when you said you are a court advocate for women and children.


The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Grotham



I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  




You are obviously passionate about issues concerning children and women. Those you represent are lucky to have someone who is caring with a big heart. This is a very awesome quality for someone to have - if only more could be like you.

While I stand behind what I said, I think it's important that we look towards the good in others and work together to help those in need, regardless of religion, race, creed, etc.



Edited by The_Seeker - 23 August 2010 at 2:18pm
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham



I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  




You are obviously passionate about issues concerning children and women. Those you represent are lucky to have someone who is caring with a big heart. This is a very awesome quality for someone to have - if only more could be like you.

While I stand behind what I said, I think it's important that we look towards the good in others and work together to help those in need, regardless of religion, race, creed, etc.

For some reason, editing this post made it post twice on the forum. Don't know what's going on with that.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:21pm
Anyone know if there's a way to delete posts that have been posted multiple times? For some reason when I edited the original post I wrote, it keeps getting added as a new one.

Mods: feel free to delete the above 2 posts. They are in error.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Grotham  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.


I don't doubt the tragic story you wrote about. That was never in question. My feelings were that Islam was being insulted. That was my perception. And to a certain extent you're right, that is my problem. But I think anyone of any religion will become defensive when they perceive their religion under attack. It's only natural to defend what we believe and hold dearly.

I do try to help those who are oppressed through my own means. But it's not something I share for fear that it will make it appear that I am bragging or helping for my own personal gain.

I'm not trying to diminish your work in any way, as your job has a direct impact helping people. I also didn't see you as bragging or anything when you said you are a court advocate for women and children.




Thank you, seeker.  That is very gentlemanly of you.  I look forward to more discussions now that we have personalities out of the way.  ;-)
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freedom-lover
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.


I don't doubt the tragic story you wrote about. That was never in question. My feelings were that Islam was being insulted. That was my perception. And to a certain extent you're right, that is my problem. But I think anyone of any religion will become defensive when they perceive their religion under attack. It's only natural to defend what we believe and hold dearly.

I do try to help those who are oppressed through my own means. But it's not something I share for fear that it will make it appear that I am bragging or helping for my own personal gain.

I'm not trying to diminish your work in any way, as your job has a direct impact helping people. I also didn't see you as bragging or anything when you said you are a court advocate for women and children.


 
 

Hi The_Seeker

As you said, becoming defensive when people perceive their belief under criticism is natural, whether it is based on truth or not. In fact it is so natural that everybody including non-believers does that. But we, as believers in God, must go much beyond that. Human beings are bound to make a mistake and believers are no exception. But admitting our own mistakes and weakness requires courage and maturity. Admitting our own mistakes and weakness is often the first step to healing and improvement. We cannot justify our mistakes simply by arguing that being defensive is natural. Here is one of the shameful mistakes our spiritual ancestors made in the past and we learned a painful lesson from it.

 

I do admit that during the dark age of our belief (when our belief was nationalized long time ago) our spiritual forefathers did cruel things to humanity in the name of God through the Crusades, the Inquisition and some other means. They were in stark contrast to the unconditional love of Jesus for all human beings. Many innocent people including Jews and Muslims were persecuted during this Dark Age. On behalf of our spiritual ancestors I sincerely apologize to all humanity. Surely they were our shame and disgrace of the past. In order to avoid admitting our shameful mistakes and escape criticism from other people, I am tempted to argue that those people involved in the atrocities were not real Christians and they were Christians only by name. Maybe this is true. But whether they were Christians by name or by heart, they carried the name of Jesus Christ and thus disgraced His name. More importantly the most precious things in the universe, human lives, were lost. When I reflected on this shameful side of our belief in the past, I realized that the root cause of the problem was nationalization or institutionalization of belief!

 

When any belief is institutionalized, everybody in the society is required or forced to believe it from birth against their will. If any question or doubt is raised openly which is against the belief or its tradition, people are persecuted just for their different views. Because honest question or doubt is considered as dishonoring God, society and family, cruel punishments such as public execution and beating are justified and exercised. Without knowing that God regards human beings the most precious in the universe, religious and political leaders persecute their own people with the wrong perception that this cruel act purifies the society from evil and thus honors God. In fact these things are much more evil than immorality. It is very much like former communist countries such as North Korea with the only difference that the ideology of communism is replaced by the zeal of religion.

 

This is what I mean by the danger of nationalization or institutionalization of any belief. I am glad we do not live anymore in this shameful dark age of the past caused by the nationalization of belief. Belief should be a personal matter. It is a personal relationship between an individual and God. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or leave their belief. Only the Creator himself is above human beings because He created them. No religion, no religious or political rules, no religious or political traditions are above the precious human lives.

 

 
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iafiaf
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote iafiaf Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 3:27pm
 
Originally posted by jimdi3

IafIaf, your post reads and sounds like a lesson learned to be parroted without thought. You appear blind and deaf to the World's news and the treatment your Sisters (?) are experiencing. If you are not blind and are aware of their suffering ....... then what you have posted has no meaning.


Perfect, such purity and rank. It is so rank it rankels.
 

may peace be with you jimdi3, may God bless your ignorant and arrogant soul and show you the right path Amen. All I have to say to people like you is:
"To you be your way, and to me be mine."-Quran surah Al-Kafirun or those who reject faith, verse 6. The reason I quote this is because I could NOT care less what you think, I will always be a MUSLIM and follow the teachings of the Quran properly....so say what you want, it just goes to show that you are an ignorant FOOL who hasn't done his research.
.....I don't think you read my first post properly, which clearly shows that you are a fool... "DO YOUR RESEARCH" on Islam and you'll know what is the truth, if you did do your research PROPERLY you would have found that the media always writes negative things about Islam and that some people who do claim they are Muslim, well it's just a label for them (the ones whom cause atrocities) they don't even follow the true teachings of Islam, they distort them and misinterpret them just like people so ignorant and arrogant like you.....so do your research!!!
You claim to be a Christian, following the teaching of the PROPHET Jesus and yet you give Islam a bad name, Jesus is a Muslim so don't misinterpret/distort what he followed and MANY others follow--the path of Islam-peace.
....and don't tell me to do my research because I did it a long time ago, challenge me all you want but the truth always comes out in the end..... 


may God show you the right path in life and quit the hatred of Muslims, just by what you wrote to me I can see the hatred building in your words, because you are so against Islam, but as Jesus said: "love thy neigbour".....
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."-Matthew 7:1-2
  
May peace be with everyone.
May Allah grant us all jannah al firdaus. Amen.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Grotham

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 


Obviously, Meriam is not a native speaker of English. Your comment was quite rude. We should encourage diversity here, not discourage it by making rude comments about how people write. I'm glad to have the viewpoint of a Tunisian woman here.

Edited by searching - 23 August 2010 at 4:33pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jimdi3 Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by iafiaf

 
Originally posted by jimdi3

IafIaf, your post reads and sounds like a lesson learned to be parroted without thought. You appear blind and deaf to the World's news and the treatment your Sisters (?) are experiencing. If you are not blind and are aware of their suffering ....... then what you have posted has no meaning.


Perfect, such purity and rank. It is so rank it rankels.
 

may peace be with you jimdi3, may God bless your ignorant and arrogant soul and show you the right path Amen. All I have to say to people like you is:
"To you be your way, and to me be mine."-Quran surah Al-Kafirun or those who reject faith, verse 6. The reason I quote this is because I could NOT care less what you think, I will always be a MUSLIM and follow the teachings of the Quran properly....so say what you want, it just goes to show that you are an ignorant FOOL who hasn't done his research.
.....I don't think you read my first post properly, which clearly shows that you are a fool... "DO YOUR RESEARCH" on Islam and you'll know what is the truth, if you did do your research PROPERLY you would have found that the media always writes negative things about Islam and that some people who do claim they are Muslim, well it's just a label for them (the ones whom cause atrocities) they don't even follow the true teachings of Islam, they distort them and misinterpret them just like people so ignorant and arrogant like you.....so do your research!!!
You claim to be a Christian, following the teaching of the PROPHET Jesus and yet you give Islam a bad name, Jesus is a Muslim so don't misinterpret/distort what he followed and MANY others follow--the path of Islam-peace.
....and don't tell me to do my research because I did it a long time ago, challenge me all you want but the truth always comes out in the end..... 


may God show you the right path in life and quit the hatred of Muslims, just by what you wrote to me I can see the hatred building in your words, because you are so against Islam, but as Jesus said: "love thy neigbour".....
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."-Matthew 7:1-2
  
 
I think you should read what your Sisters think who actually live under Sharia Law.....
 
 
You have the wonderful advantage of living in the UK.
 
I do not know how old you are. I see however you describe yourself as a Student.  Even a late Student of 40 years just begins to match the time I have been involved with Islam and Muslims.
 
I am sure you will always remain a Muslim, it is far to dangerous to leave it anyway. Islam in the West is very comfortable ... try living it up country in Yemen before you blame me of ignorance. I have experienced it .... oh no, that is culture isn't it?
 
 
 
 
 
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jimdi3 Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 5:24pm
For those who don't know what wluml.org is ..... here is a taster:
 
 
WHAT IS WOMEN LIVING UNDER MUSLIM LAWS?

Women Living Under Muslim Laws is an international solidarity network that provides information, support and a collective space for women whose lives are shaped, conditioned or governed by laws and customs said to derive from Islam.

For more than two decades WLUML has linked individual women and organisations. It now extends to more than 70 countries ranging from South Africa to Uzbekistan, Senegal to Indonesia and Brazil to France. It links:

  • women living in countries or states where Islam is the state religion, secular states with Muslim majorities as well as those from Muslim communities governed by minority religious laws;
  • women in secular states where political groups are demanding religious laws;
  • women in migrant Muslim communities in Europe, the Americas, and around the world;
  • non-Muslim women who may have Muslim laws applied to them directly or through their children;
  • women born into Muslim communities/families who are automatically categorized as Muslim but may not define themselves as such, either because they are not believers or because they choose not to identify themselves in religious terms, preferring to prioritise other aspects of their identity such as political ideology, profession, sexual orientation or others.

Our name challenges the myth of one, homogenous ‘Muslim world’. This deliberately created myth fails to reflect that: a) laws said to be Muslim vary from one context to another and, b) the laws that determine our lives are from diverse sources: religious, customary, colonial and secular. We are governed simultaneously by many different laws: laws recognised by the state (codified and uncodified) and informal laws such as customary practices which vary according to the cultural, social and political context.

As i tried to explain to iafiaf .... it is ok living the life in the west ... try living as a woman it the countries from and of these ladies speak.
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Cyra Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 5:34pm
Um, iafiaf...hon, you would do well to do YOUR research.  I've known Jimdi on a cpl forums for a cpl years.  He could probably teach you a few things about your religion.  You've been on here for a little over a year while he's been on here for 5 years.  You number just over 100 posts while his number in the thousands.  He knows what he knows and you would also do well to respect that.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by searching

Originally posted by Grotham

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 


Obviously, Meriam is not a native speaker of English. Your comment was quite rude. We should encourage diversity here, not discourage it by making rude comments about how people write. I'm glad to have the viewpoint of a Tunisian woman here.


Did I ask for your opinion?  You are not my judge. 

This is an English language forum.  For those of us whose first language is not English, it is a good opportunity to practice.  If you are aware of her situation, why did you not privately coach her with the correct sentence structure instead of attempting to castigate me so rudely in public?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 6:51pm
I do not know Meriam personally. It's just common sense to assume that since she lives in Tunisia, where the official language is Arabic, it's likely that she isn't a native speaker. And as far as asking for my opinion, you post plenty of opinions here that no one asked for. That's what DISCUSSION boards are about. And I wouldn't have had to castigate you in public if you weren't acting so rude in public. I don't like to see that kind of rudeness on an international forum. English isn't the only language in the world and not everyone speaks it fluently but we need to be tolerant. So instead of posting a rude comment about how she wrote, why didn't you take your own advice and private message her in order to coach her?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote devd Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Grotham


Did I ask for your opinion?  You are not my judge. 
 
Calm down. She made a valid point regarding your lack of circumspection.
 
Originally posted by Grotham


This is an English language forum. 
 
Oh goodie.
 
Originally posted by Grotham

 For those of us whose first language is not English, it is a good opportunity to practice.
 
This messageboard is certainly multi-purpose!
 
Originally posted by Grotham

  If you are aware of her situation, why did you not privately coach her with the correct sentence structure instead of attempting to castigate me so rudely in public?
 
She didn't "attempt" to do anything. She flat out did it. And quite frankly, your attitude opened the door for it.
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