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Francophile  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:32pm
I am referring to Hamayoun's remark earlier that in western countries men have 'carte blanche to use and abuse women in every way imaginable.'
 
Do you agree that that is correct?
 
I'm not implying you would do such a thing, but do you believe you are free to do so?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:54pm
I wouldn't say carte blanche, but treatment of women in the U.S. needs a lot of improvement.  I was involved in a rape case where there were 4 victims of a period of MANY years and none knew each other.  The man was never even charged or arrested because it was "his word against hers."  Four women.  One man. 

Women are stalked here and the police can't do much.  Restraining orders can be obtained, but they are just pieces of paper between a woman and a violent man.  Some women have had to go into hiding and change their names as a result of domestic violence.  This is wrong when it's the man who is the perpetrator.  If he is so violent, why not put him in jail?

So the law here is pretty weak when it comes to protecting women if a man can rape 4 women and not even be charged.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:04am
Originally posted by Francophile

I am referring to Hamayoun's remark earlier that in western countries men have 'carte blanche to use and abuse women in every way imaginable.'
 
Do you agree that that is correct?
 
I'm not implying you would do such a thing, but do you believe you are free to do so?


Thank you for your clarification.

I'm honestly not quite sure how to answer that because I'd hate to make a broad generalization about men in western countries. I can make a few points though:

1. I'm a guy, like I said in previous post, so I understand the temptation/urges/thoughts that guys get when we see women in skimpy clothing. I do believe this is just plain human nature at work.

2. On one hand, we men should be responsible for our own behavior. I won't make excuses for criminals. On the other hand, if women don't want to be seen as/treated like objects, then they should not walk around wearing clothes with the least amount of fabric.

3. The National Organization for Women (NOW) tracks sexual violence against women in the US:


According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, which includes crimes that were not reported to the police, 232,960 women in the U.S. were raped or sexually assaulted in 2006. That's more than 600 women every day.6 Other estimates, such as those generated by the FBI, are much lower because they rely on data from law enforcement agencies. A significant number of crimes are never even reported for reasons that include the victim's feeling that nothing can/will be done and the personal nature of the incident.7


And who tend to be the victims?


Young women, low-income women and some minorities are disproportionately victims of domestic violence and rape. Women ages 20-24 are at greatest risk of nonfatal domestic violence8, and women age 24 and under suffer from the highest rates of rape.9 The Justice Department estimates that one in five women will experience rape or attempted rape during their college years, and that less than five percent of these rapes will be reported.10 Income is also a factor: the poorer the household, the higher the rate of domestic violence -- with women in the lowest income category experiencing more than six times the rate of nonfatal intimate partner violence as compared to women in the highest income category.11 When we consider race, we see that African-American women face higher rates of domestic violence than white women, and American-Indian women are victimized at a rate more than double that of women of other races.12


Source: http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

4. Let's face it, in the US, sex sells. Every day television, movies, magazines and such are filled with thin, beautiful looking women (hey, I'm being honest). It creates a "standard" that many women feel they need to live up to. I'd even go as far to say that sex and sexiness are very glorified in the US.

Sorry for not specifically answering your question with a definite "yes" or "no". I think the term 'carte blanche is giving me problems, as it basically means a free pass or a blank check.

I will make one final personal observation: I feel much more comfortable in the masjid wear the women are dressed very modestly than I ever did attending church when I was a Christian. In church, it was shocking to see the short skirts and tight clothes girls/women would wear. Yes, I found it distracting.

At the masjid, however, there are no such distractions. I can focus my energy on worshiping God.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote searching Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:34am
The other problem in the U.S. is that the thin, beautiful women we see in magazines is a body type that most women can't possibly achieve.  So we are supposed to buy all kinds of products to help us get closer to this ideal.  And the ideal is a photoshopped, airbrushed magazine photo.  These "perfect" women aren't even "perfect" enough.  They have to be computer enhanced to make them have more curves here, less curves there.  It's ridiculous that this is how we sell products.  
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Cyra  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Cyra Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:59am
Originally posted by mai moslemah

You will not find an islamic organization that supprot porn or strip show.

Um, I didn't say anything about any islamic organization.

 



Edited by Cyra - 24 August 2010 at 1:04am
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Meriam  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Meriam Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:16am
Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by Meriam

Peace brothers andd sisters,

what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
 
Salam sister Meriem
( I am not a new Muslim by the way ) to answer your question
 
success, tranquility and trying to be helpful for other. I am raised in a religious Muslim family and there love, patience and sacrifice was a great power for me to success. i can admit that without my dady i would never be a doctor and with out the support i get i might not get high grades that qualify me to be a staff member in one of Egypt's universities.
 
Originally posted by Meriam

Is there any injustice?
 
 
Life is full of injustice, sometimes when other human being be unjust with you, it gives you more strength and experience in life, but injustice was never from Islam.
 
Originally posted by Meriam

Is there any difference between man and woman as Muslims , a difference which imply any ''supremacy''of one over the other?
 
 
 Of course there is difference.The concept of equality btw gender is not Islamic concept but the Islamic concept is equity ( both gender complete each other).Bother men and women have the same value but they have different rules in life and this is for their own good.and i personally believe that equality without equity is so unfair for women
 
let e give you an example:
 
Women get pregnant right?! why women should work with the same efficiency as men at the time of pregnancy, this would be so much load but because women are not like men there must be especial rules for pregnant and lactating women also women should be supported by Men (husbands or fathers) during these times or it wouldn't be fair
 
equality not always fair but equity is fair
 
 
You are right sister not because you said kind things about woman as muslim but because this is the juste and truthful situation of Female gender between the coins of islamic verdicts...She is so honored with much equity as you said with man..
The Qu'ran elkarim shows well this point by giving such  a full surat called An-Nissa ( Women) with 176 verses to speak about her rights as her duties...
Saidatouna Maryam is also a woman and she was honored by a full surat too, called by her name with 98 verses.
The mother also as a woman is so honored in islam and her obedience comes just after al shahadattan and her disrespect is a way to Hell in the afterlife...She is the key of paradise after the belief in Allah and all his Angels, prophets and Holybooks as sent by God without any interference of men.
How wonderful really is this mercy ..
How nice is this award from Allah to woman ..
How magnificient is the justice of islam on his right...
But where is who understands well this aspect and applicates it in a pragmatic manner..where? and we see all the nonsense done on the right of woman in such some places on the world and taken on the name of islam ...But islam is far away of all this injustice rather it is the means of good manners and virtues in communication with all mankind man or woman.
 
Thank you again sister, you seem to understand well my meaning from my question that my sister Grotham saw it already as non coherant and requires perhaps much English language knowledge to pose it in coherent way..
Thank you sister.
By the way, your first passage of reply seems to be the same thing that I want to say: yes, as you, I am proud to born muslim and I am proud to have a great generous  kind and tolerant family and all my life I give to my parents whithout their support I would never rise up between the ranks of science.
 
Salmouallaykom


Edited by Meriam - 24 August 2010 at 5:20am
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Meriam  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Meriam Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:22am
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!
 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf..
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Meriam  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Meriam Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:24am

But don`t you see?

that i am truely free?
 this piece of scarf on me;
i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....
why can`t i just be me???
"i am the one who is free!!!!

 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf that I hear from time to time.
God bless you.
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Francophile  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 9:31am
Originally posted by searching

The other problem in the U.S. is that the thin, beautiful women we see in magazines is a body type that most women can't possibly achieve.  So we are supposed to buy all kinds of products to help us get closer to this ideal.  And the ideal is a photoshopped, airbrushed magazine photo.  These "perfect" women aren't even "perfect" enough.  They have to be computer enhanced to make them have more curves here, less curves there.  It's ridiculous that this is how we sell products.  
 
It's ridiculous that any intelligent person beyond the teenage years is influenced by these advertisements at all. Their influence should end at the same time one loses interest in the latest boy band or teen idol.
 
I admit that some people never outgrow these influences, but then they never actually become women, except physically.
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 10:36am
I believe the problem start from childhood, toys today are different from before.Barbygirl is an example it make young girls from their childhood believe that this is the perfect shape of a woman.
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 11:47am
Salam

Let me explain my comment about men having 'carte blanche to use and abuse women in every way imaginable.' So in the USA and the UK, and many other countries, it is 100% legal for any man to open a strip club. Any such man is allowed to solicit for women to work there. At that point, the use and abuse has already started. When a woman is hired by a man to be used as a sex object for the purposes of making money, to me that is CLEAR abuse. Now once a woman enters that arena, there's few limits to how she can be used. Lap dancing is one very common thing that happens in these places. Do you know what lap dancing is? I found this definition from Wikipedia:

'During a lap dance, the dancer rubs against the customer's crotch while he or she (typically he) remains clothed, in an attempt to arouse or bring the recipient to climax'.

I don't know about you, but that's reaching the limit of my imagaination. If it gets worse than that, I don't want to know.

So we can say that it is totally legal (which is what I mean by carte blanche) in some countries to LITERALLY strip women of every single last shroud of their dignity. Since this thread is about dignity, I find it it ironic that while women are being undignified in the own back yard of some posters, those posters have no difficulty in trying to slur Islam by claiming that Islam shows no dignity to women. What is the Islamic position on this? One of the beauties of Islam is the way that the Quran, and the Prophet Mohammed (SAW), teaches muslims to purify their hearts, and thus not fall into bad things. There's a beautiful story of a man who wanted to commit fornication because he could not control himself, and asked the Prophet(SAW) for permission to do so. The Prophet dealt with him with reasoning and asked him if he would approve of someone else having illegal sex with his mother, sister, daughter, or wife. Each time the man said 'no'. Then the Prophet replied that the woman with whom you plan to have sex is also somebody's mother, sister, daughter, or wife. The man understood and repented. The Prophet prayed for his forgiveness.

In this way, muslim men are taught about the dignity of women by being told that even if a woman appears undignifed, a man should not want to 'do' anything with her, NOT EVEN LOOK AT HER with desire. And if a man feels inclined to this, that man should remember that the woman is someone's mother/wife/daughter/sister, and to think of how it would be if it was his own mother/wife/daughter/sister. Just look at the amazing dignity Islam gives to women, and compare it with what is legal in certain non muslim countries! Makes me wonder why we are even having this discussion.

I want to finish by giving my own example. Upto the age of 21, I was not a very committed muslim. I was at college, and in the whole of the college there was only one girl who wore hijab. And whenever I saw her, I used to think 'how dare she do that? I want to look at her! It is my right to look at her, and see as much as I can, why is she stopping me from doing that?' Then when I became committed, I started trying to avoid looking at women, hijab or not - because Islam taught me about the dignity of a woman. Women do not simply exist to be oggled at and rated by men - and it took Islam to teach me that.

Edited by hamayoun - 24 August 2010 at 11:50am
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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Francophile  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:02pm

Women do not simply exist to be oggled at and rated by men - and it took Islam to teach me that.

What a shame you weren't taught that by your parents or teachers. Perhaps in time even without Islam,  you might have learned to see college women as individuals rather than as sex objects.

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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:11pm
My parents did try and teach me that, my teachers only taught me school subjects. However, growing up in the UK, the media gave me the impression that women were basically sex objects. A simple example of this which you don't see in the USA. We have tabloid newspapers in the UK. In the 70s, some of these newspapers started publishing daily, color, almost full page photos of topless models (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_3_girls). There is no doubt that media and society influence how men regard women.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Francophile

What a shame you weren't taught that by your parents or teachers. Perhaps in time even without Islam,  you might have learned to see college women as individuals rather than as sex objects.



That's the whole point - women are individuals, not sex objects. But when they wear practically no clothing to school or around town, it's really hard to get past their physical appearance.

And when tv, magazines and other media show women as sex objects, it really does have an effect on society as a whole. I've known a lot of smart, well-educated women who will put their health at risk to try and look like what our society expects.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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