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Francophile  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

My parents did try and teach me that, my teachers only taught me school subjects. However, growing up in the UK, the media gave me the impression that women were basically sex objects. A simple example of this which you don't see in the USA. We have tabloid newspapers in the UK. In the 70s, some of these newspapers started publishing daily, color, almost full page photos of topless models (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_3_girls). There is no doubt that media and society influence how men regard women.
 
As a woman, I will suggest that there is no doubt that covering women up also influences how men regard women. The imagination is very powerful.
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Cyra  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Cyra Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:01pm
Blah, blah...Bottom line it is up to an individual to control themelves.  Look or don 't look?  Your choice, no one else's.  And we all know that hijab does NOT stop men from looking, ogling, staring, whatever.  We all also know that there are plenty of stories from all over the world, including muslim majority countries where women have been attacked hijab or no, burqa or no, niqab or no, just because they were out in public without a male escort.  Point being that women everywhere are susceptible to stupid, twisted men irregardless of media.
 
As far as the example of a man opening a club and hiring strippers?  Those women make their own choices.  They don't have to choose to strip, just like many have chosen not to go to school for better opportunity to make wiser choices.  They're in it for the fast cash.  They figure it's easy enough work for the amount of money a lot of them bring home.   The women that choose to be strippers are using the men as much as the men are using them.
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:03pm
Thanks for the clarification, Hamayoun. I agree with you. Nothing good comes from strip clubs. The girls who work there are treated like objects. No man goes to a strip club to have an intellectually stimulating conversation with one of the dancers.

When I was young and in the military, I did my share of things I'm not proud of (although cheating on my fiancee, now my wife, was NEVER one of them). So I've seen both sides of this issue. Trust me, after a while women really do become objects.

Modesty is best. Girls and women should let their personalities and intellect shine, not their bodies.


Edited by The_Seeker - 24 August 2010 at 2:08pm
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

No man goes to a strip club to have an intellectually stimulating conversation with one of the dancers.

A non Muslim man who live in sweden once told me that when he goes to nude club and.... ( whatever they do there ) he has all respect for women who are there and they are just having fun together as human being.
 
This was in a conversation that no need for hijab as men can control their desire very well, and whenever he sees a women which is not dressed properly he look at her the same way he look at beautiful picture.Btw isn't a beautiful picture consider to be an object


Edited by mai moslemah - 24 August 2010 at 1:12pm
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Cyra  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Cyra Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Meriam

But don`t you see?

that i am truely free?
 this piece of scarf on me;
i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....
why can`t i just be me???
"i am the one who is free!!!!

 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf that I hear from time to time.
God bless you.
 
Spare me.  I'm soooo tired of seeing this quoted.  A scarf doesn't preserve your dignity, integrity or  modesty.  It's a piece of cloth, inanimate object.  It's up to the woman to preserve her dignity, integrity and modesty.  Wear it if you want,  be who you want to be, but don't tell me that if I choose not to wear hijab that I have no dignity or integrity.  My moral standards are hella higher than many muslim women I meet.  At least I don't isolate the new person by not speaking to them, by not including them.  And I am far from immodest, btw.
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Cyra

Blah, blah...Bottom line it is up to an individual to control themelves.  Look or don 't look?  Your choice, no one else's.  And we all know that hijab does NOT stop men from looking, ogling, staring, whatever.  We all also know that there are plenty of stories from all over the world, including muslim majority countries where women have been attacked hijab or no, burqa or no, niqab or no, just because they were out in public without a male escort.  Point being that women everywhere are susceptible to stupid, twisted men irregardless of media.


I really wish it was that easy - just not to look. But it's not.  And I have plenty of male friends to back me up on that.

I will never make excuses for any man who rapes, beats or abuses a women. That is a man who has no control over himself and needs some serious help.
 

As far as the example of a man opening a club and hiring strippers?  Those women make their own choices.  They don't have to choose to strip, just like many have chosen not to go to school for better opportunity to make wiser choices.  They're in it for the fast cash.  They figure it's easy enough work for the amount of money a lot of them bring home.   The women that choose to be strippers are using the men as much as the men are using them.


While all your reasons for women becoming strippers are probably true, I think the underlying reason is very low self-esteem. Getting all that attention from men is an ego booster.

Men are the same way. Those who sleep around with multiple partners also have low self-esteem and need to be validated by women.

I
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah


A non Muslim man who live in sweden once told me that when he goes to nude club and.... ( whatever they do there ) he has all respect for women who are there and they are just having fun together as human being.


He's lying. Plain and simple.




Edited by The_Seeker - 24 August 2010 at 1:12pm
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:20pm
"As far as the example of a man opening a club and hiring strippers? Those women make their own choices. They don't have to choose to strip, just like many have chosen not to go to school for better opportunity to make wiser choices. They're in it for the fast cash. They figure it's easy enough work for the amount of money a lot of them bring home.   The women that choose to be strippers are using the men as much as the men are using them."
Read that website (http://www.savedfromstripclubs.org/factsaboutexoticdancing.htm) to see the fall out of what happens to women who enter this industry. They are being used and abused, and don't know it.

This thread is about Islam and the dignity of women. Regardless of why women do this, the fact is that it is 100% legal for this to happen in western countries, whereas Islam gives huge dignity to women by totally forbidding anything even approaching strip clubs.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:48pm
I fail to see how this gives dignity to women, just as I fail to see how the Saudis forbidding them to drive  cars gives them dignity. If a woman's dignity is dependent upon some law passed by men, one can only wonder how dignified the men would make them, given free rein.
 
Constantly viewing women as potential victims of evil men doesn't say much for the men. Perhaps you're going about this backwards.
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freedom-lover
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote freedom-lover Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:50pm

Hi readers

 

Thanks for your contributions on the moral issue. Our church has about 1000 members and I have not seen women in skimpy clothing. Perhaps this is because most of the congregation are immigrants from the third world. You may be right that in some liberal western churches there are some women in such clothing. In fact this is a concern to genuine Christians. Worldly values such as materialism and sexism have started smearing into the churches and mixing with our values. Of course we must always guard against them. But another extreme is Niqab and Burqa type clothing which I am also against. I have no objection to Hijab. Although we live in the world, we do not need to be worldly, in particular, among believers.

“so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe” (Philippians 2:15)

 

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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Francophile

I fail to see how this gives dignity to women, just as I fail to see how the Saudis forbidding them to drive  cars gives them dignity. If a woman's dignity is dependent upon some law passed by men, one can only wonder how dignified the men would make them, given free rein.
 
Constantly viewing women as potential victims of evil men doesn't say much for the men. Perhaps you're going about this backwards.


This is a problem of society as a whole.

I agree with you about Saudi Arabia - there is no dignity in forbidding women to even drive cars. Saudi women are smart and should be able to make their own decisions and let their intellect/personalities shine. Change is coming, but at a snail's pace.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Meriam  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Meriam Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Cyra

Originally posted by Meriam

But don`t you see?

that i am truely free?
 this piece of scarf on me;
i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....
why can`t i just be me???
"i am the one who is free!!!!

 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf that I hear from time to time.
God bless you.
 
Spare me.  I'm soooo tired of seeing this quoted.  A scarf doesn't preserve your dignity, integrity or  modesty.  It's a piece of cloth, inanimate object.  It's up to the woman to preserve her dignity, integrity and modesty.  Wear it if you want,  be who you want to be, but don't tell me that if I choose not to wear hijab that I have no dignity or integrity.  My moral standards are hella higher than many muslim women I meet.  At least I don't isolate the new person by not speaking to them, by not including them.  And I am far from immodest, btw.
Thank you cyra for your interest to comment this part of passage.
Sorry if you did not get well the meaning that I mean here by saying that that scarf is a way to dignity and Integrity....
What I mean exceeds what you understood , exceeds the simple sign that it could be seen as a piece of cloth hidden the woman's hair...
What I mean exceeds more what you say here Cyra.
The Hijjab is not a sign of Dignity any more to who does not understand well the wisdom of its consideration as a verdict in islam..
Hijjab should be understood as a worship , as a means to avoid any temptation ..
If you don't wear Hijjab, it is not mean that you are not free and you are bad one, .....No cyra, even without Hijjab, you , she and they still be Human being honored by Dignity and Modesty if anyone knows well her limits and how she keeps her Dignity...
Cyra, with or not Scarf, you are worthy to be honored and respected...
And with Hijjab as it is well understood in its morals, one of us would be more and more closer to applicate the verdicts of her creed...
Unfortunatelly, there are some who wear it without any respect of it and give then bad impression about Hijjab..
But God thanks, there are in the other side, who wears it and gives it its value as well as we feel proud to be honored woman in islam.
 
To wear Scarf as a worship with what contains as magnificient morals of Dignity's keeping, is so different than to wear it just as a cloth or as a custom...
 
Cyra, I live in a modern community ,  I did not wear Hijjab one time, and I did never felt the inconvenience that you showed above , I did not feel that I am seen as bad one but I always Kept my Dignity and my modesty refering to my islamic morals and my family education...
Also, many of my best friends don't wear Hijjab and they are so good as persons to communicate with and I have really the honor to be my friends...
The problematic or the miscellaneous here is How to understand the verdict of Scarf in islam religion as a great gift to have the awards by obeying Allah who only knows well our benefit ....
 
Sorry for any misunderstanding Cyra and thank you for like this opportunity to give me to clarify more the meaning and it would be an occasion for you sister to search more about this subject from reliable sources and not to give up our reflections on superficial understanding or unconfident source of inforrmations as we see all the misconceptions turning around Islam without any trying to do a step and see with wise eye the reality of the fact.
 
god bless you and all women in the world.
Salam


Edited by Meriam - 24 August 2010 at 2:18pm
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The_Seeker  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Seeker Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:21pm
On the other hand, I don't see how women walking around in skimpy, revealing clothes or being a stripper gives them much dignity either.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:32pm

I agree with you, but at least they made their own decisions about what to wear. There is some inherent dignity in that.



Edited by Francophile - 24 August 2010 at 2:32pm
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