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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 2:48am
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by ishammad

Grotham, I do not generalize, I always mean some Jews when I mention something related to them. As regard to the Kabbalah, yes actually i only read that it is the ancient source of witchcraft knoweldge and it was not said by  Muslim. 

"Mystic/mystical" is not the same as witchcraft.   Kabbalah is the discipline and school of thought concerned with the mystical aspect of Rabbinic Judaism.  
 
As regards to their (some) following what the devils recited during the reign of Solomon, this is written the Book which I believe is revelation from the All-knowing, I also remember reading the stories of Jews who embraced Islam and they said that magic was practiced by some Jewish famylies in their community.  

We aren't into devils, satan, jezabells, jinns and that sort of mythical stuff.   Again, you were misinformed if someone told you of Jews practicing magic as associated with mythical witches and warlocks.  Now, magic, as a talent, is a whole other spectrum.  One of the world's foremost magicians, Houdini, was certainly Jewish but his sort of "magic" had nothing to do with religion.  LOL  That is too far out to be believed even by the uninformed. 
 
however, i can accept the possibility that some people who are involved in this do not actually know that this what they are doing (following what the devils recited during the reign of Solomon). 

Sorry, you need concrete evidence of this so called "magic" you say was practiced.  In all my years of being Jewish and practicing, I have never see or heard of witch-type magic rituals being practiced by Jews except maybe as part of the folklore of some cultures. 

I will thank you not to continually slander my religion with this non-factual information.  I may have to organize riots and plunder innocents to get a legitimate government to stop you from this dastardly practice.

 
As for the Masonic rituals, it seems to me that it is clear that it is rituals dedicated for evil jinn (demons).
 

You certainly are obsessed with this topic, nu?  Maybe you should speak to a medical professional for help with this dilemma.

 
Actually, Grothram, though purely the kabbalah has nothing to do with magic, I recall reading a ton of occult material when I was a teenager and much of it included the kabbalah like the tree of life, the hebrew letters, etc. Obviously, it could be said that occult people like witches and spiritualists hijacked the kabbalah. Ish isn't really misinformed, at least not to a large extent. I myself used to read the Tarot cards, and many of the spreads and symbolism involved required a working knowledge of kabbalah (depending if you wanted to use that form of power). Reading divination, magic, and other occult books will also include many references to the kabbalah. The Order of the Golden Dawn (a magic secret society), Aleister Crowley, etc. all have connections with kabbalah. I don't know how much they actually know of kabbalah or if they're using it with the right intentions, etc. but there's no denying that it is extremely common in the world of magic and paganism.
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 2:51am
Originally posted by Grotham

We aren't into devils, satan, jezabells, jinns and that sort of mythical stuff.
 
And that reminds me to ask: What are golems (or ghols or something along those lines)? I thought Jews have their own brand of demons or folk monsters. I heard Jews mentioning these things before. And I'm not thinking of "ghouls"...it's either a Yiddish or Hebrew word. Is it similar to jinns? Is it Jewish belief or more along the lines of Jewish culture?
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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Grotham  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 6:57am
Originally posted by talib84

Originally posted by Grotham

We aren't into devils, satan, jezabells, jinns and that sort of mythical stuff.
 
And that reminds me to ask: What are golems (or ghols or something along those lines)? I thought Jews have their own brand of demons or folk monsters. I heard Jews mentioning these things before. And I'm not thinking of "ghouls"...it's either a Yiddish or Hebrew word. Is it similar to jinns? Is it Jewish belief or more along the lines of Jewish culture?


Ibbur and Dybbuk - in the mystical tradition of folklore they are the lingering souls of the dead said to influence the souls of the living.  This is folklore, not religion yet it has its place when studying all aspects of Judaism over the thousands of years of its existence.  It has nothing to do with witches, witchcraft, satan, etc.
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Grotham  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 7:19am
Originally posted by talib84



 
Actually, Grothram, though purely the kabbalah has nothing to do with magic, I recall reading a ton of occult material when I was a teenager and much of it included the kabbalah like the tree of life, the hebrew letters, etc. Obviously, it could be said that occult people like witches and spiritualists hijacked the kabbalah. Ish isn't really misinformed, at least not to a large extent. I myself used to read the Tarot cards, and many of the spreads and symbolism involved required a working knowledge of kabbalah (depending if you wanted to use that form of power). Reading divination, magic, and other occult books will also include many references to the kabbalah. The Order of the Golden Dawn (a magic secret society), Aleister Crowley, etc. all have connections with kabbalah. I don't know how much they actually know of kabbalah or if they're using it with the right intentions, etc. but there's no denying that it is extremely common in the world of magic and paganism.


Kabbalah is a whole other aspect of Judaism dealing with the mystic.  To understand Kabbalah, one has to have a thorough understanding of Judaism and the discussions laid out in Talmud.  It is not for novices and many over the years have misused, either for their own selfish benefit (Madonna comes to mind) or through serious misinterpretation of Kabbalah.   It has nothing to do with tarot cards, witchcraft, "magic" or whatever else the uninformed want to attach to it. 

While codes of Jewish law focus on what it is G-d wants from man, kabbalah tries to penetrate deeper, to G-d's essence itself.  Rabbis of the Talmud regarded the mystical study of G-d as important but dangerous, thus limiting its study to the (Jewishly) educated and of mature character. 


Edited by Grotham - 10 December 2010 at 7:20am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.VV.A.N Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Francophile

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3020&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html


 

 

Finally, the decree of Mullah Omar of February 26 last year ordering “all non-Islamic statues and tombs” to be destroyed, led to the demolition of the Bamiyan Buddhas and the loss of two-thirds of the 100,000 items in the Kabul museum. Some sites, notably in Hadda and Herat, had been destroyed earlier for ideological and religious reasons.


Seriously? Is that what you mean by "treasure".

What's the matter with you?

How about the real treasures like the natural resources, location, pipelines etc... you know, things that would make Afghanistan one of the richest areas on earth (which is why everyone wants to invade it and has been for centuries.

No one cares about statues when we've got priceless resources to consider. You're so small minded you only see the scraps, and not the gold in front of you. Here's some evidence we were interested in this before 9/11:


"The U.S. Government's position is that we support multiple pipelines...
The Unocal pipeline is among those pipelines that would receive our
support under that policy. I would caution that while we do support the
project, the U.S. Government has not at this point recognized any
governing regime of the transit country, one of the transit countries,
Afghanistan, through which that pipeline would be routed. But we do
support the project."

[ "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics", 12 Feb 1998 ]


"The only other possible route [for the desired oil pipeline] is across,
Afghanistan which has of course its own unique challenges."

[ "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics", 12 Feb 1998 ]


"CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized
Afghanistan Government is in place."

[ "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics", 12 Feb 1998 ]
"I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands even if he's wrong; than the one who comes up like an angel & is nothing but a devil" ~Malcolm X agitating the conservatives, Oxford '64
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 10:39am
Originally posted by M.A.R.VV.A.N



Seriously? Is that what you mean by "treasure".

What's the matter with you?

How about the real treasures like the natural resources, location, pipelines etc... you know, things that would make Afghanistan one of the richest areas on earth (which is why everyone wants to invade it and has been for centuries.

No one cares about statues when we've got priceless resources to consider. You're so small minded you only see the scraps, and not the gold in front of you.
]


Then why weren't mosques, schools and all Muslim facilities destroyed too?  I mean, nobody cares about those either, they care only about pipelines, natural resources, etc., you know ...
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.VV.A.N Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 10:44am
So asks the elderly lady who supports plundering innocents.
"I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands even if he's wrong; than the one who comes up like an angel & is nothing but a devil" ~Malcolm X agitating the conservatives, Oxford '64
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by talib84

 
I actually read one book on Kabbalah, didn't care much for it to read any more into the subject. But it's not really magic or witchcraft. If anything, it's much more like sufism. But to me, the kabbalah focuses more on tawheed than sufism does (ironically).
 
Dear Talib, please read what Grotham is telling you
 
Kabbalh is not about sorcery/magic as i think or phrase it,
 
"It is concerned with the mystical aspect of Rabbinic Judaism."   Grotham says 

Its has nothing to do with Satan, demons, devils, jinns as i think or phrase it
 
"... Now, magic, as a talent" Grotham is telling you 

She is also telling you:

"I have never see or heard of witch-type magic rituals being practiced by Jews except maybe as part of the folklore of some cultures. "

 
so its just folkrole, do not be misinformed please.

Based on this, I need to be clever enough in chosing my words, otherwise i will give the impression than i am possesed.
 
Grotham, I am not saying its part of Judaism itself. far Exalted is God above that.
 
but to be described as folklore of some cultures makes me feel its common as I expected. 
 
 


Edited by ishammad - 10 December 2010 at 3:22pm
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.VV.A.N

So asks the elderly lady who supports plundering innocents.


And just who are these supposed "innocents" of which you speak and what is this nefarious deed you ASSUME about me? 

And who you calling elderly, sonny?  I'll cane you one dark night when you least expect it.
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Grotham  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by ishammad

Originally posted by talib84

 
I actually read one book on Kabbalah, didn't care much for it to read any more into the subject. But it's not really magic or witchcraft. If anything, it's much more like sufism. But to me, the kabbalah focuses more on tawheed than sufism does (ironically).
 
Dear Talib, please read what Grotham is telling you
 
Kabbalh is not about sorcery/magic as i think or phrase it,
 
"It is concerned with the mystical aspect of Rabbinic Judaism."   Grotham says 

Its has nothing to do with Satan, demons, devils, jinns as i think or phrase it
 
"... Now, magic, as a talent" Grotham is telling you 

She is also telling you:

"I have never see or heard of witch-type magic rituals being practiced by Jews except maybe as part of the folklore of some cultures. "

 
so its just folkrole, do not be misinformed please.

Based on this, I need to be clever enough in chosing my words, otherwise i will give the impression than i am possesed. 

You do seem rather compulsive on this topic in your excitement to include all yet imparting incorrect information.
 
Grotham, I am not saying its part of Judaism itself. far Exalted is God above that.  

Kabbalah is part of Judaism, a dedicated aspect - sort of like an eccentric relative, not easily understood, used judiciously and muchly studied but not used in general.  It can too easily be misunderstood and abused.

 
but to be described as folklore of some cultures makes me feel its common as I expected.  I may not have made myself clear, there are characters in Jewish folklore that are similar to devils, jinns, demons, angels, etc.  Not to be confused with the actual religion though.  They may be used to illustrate points but are not part and parcel of and do not originate with the religion. 

You are doing well in your understanding and are a very polite person.  Thank you, I always look forward to correcting you as I hope you do me.  ;-)
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 8:24pm
I wonder how close modern Judaism is to ancient Judaism. I imagine much closer than the way modern Christianity is with ancient Christianity.
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Grotham Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2010 at 9:12pm
Very close to the ancient.  Not enough differences to make a difference.  After all, the laws are there, the Covenant is there, the guidance of hundreds and thousands is there also.  Judaism differs in some ways from other mainstream religions. 

Hold your hands apart about 2 feet like a square or rectangle or circle.  Those are the boundaries of Judaism and, as a Jew, I am free to bounce around in that space from side to side, top to bottom, upside down, tumbling, floating, inside out.  As long as I am within those bounds, I am within Judaism.  It is fluid, open and geared toward education and growth that betters this earth and mankind.  

Originally posted by talib84

I wonder how close modern Judaism is to ancient Judaism. I imagine much closer than the way modern Christianity is with ancient Christianity.


Edited by Grotham - 10 December 2010 at 9:13pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2010 at 4:23am
Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were given a portion of the Book? they believe in sorcery and Evil, and say to the Unbelievers that they are better guided in the (right) way Than the believers!
 
They are (men) whom Allah hath cursed: And those whom Allah Hath cursed, thou wilt find, have no one to help.
 
[Quran 4:51-52]
 
And when a messenger from Allah came to them confirming that which was with them, a party of those who had been given the Scripture threw the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know [what it contained].
 
And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]." And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah . And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But the Children of Israel certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.
 
And if they had believed and feared Allah , then the reward from Allah would have been [far] better, if they only knew.
[Quran 2:101-103]
 
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2010 at 2:25pm
[6:91]And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.
 
***
 
Then your hearts became hardened after that, being like stones or even harder. For indeed, there are stones from which rivers burst forth, and there are some of them that split open and water comes out, and there are some of them that fall down for fear of Allah . And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
 
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
 
And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We have believed"; but when they are alone with one another, they say, "Do you talk to them about what Allah has revealed to you so they can argue with you about it before your Lord?" Then will you not reason?
 
But do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare?
 
And among them (Jews) are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.
 
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
 
And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
 
Yes, whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
 
But they who believe and do righteous deeds - those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally.
 
[Quran 2:74-82]
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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