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Katatonic Bliss  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Katatonic Bliss Replybullet Topic: Sahih Bukhari
    Posted: 25 March 2011 at 3:50pm
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Peace,

To my understanding, Muhammad's sayings were divinely inspired and thus from God. 

Please explain the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71 is entitled "Medicine"

#584, 587, 600, 603, 605

Cupping is declared to have great healing powers.  Cauterization is declared haraam due to Muhammad's dislike of it. (Qur'an 66:1 forbade Muhammad from declaring anything haraam that God Himself did not declare haraam)

#591, 592

5-7 black cumin seeds crushed into powder, mixed with oil and then dripped into both nostrils can heal any disease except death. (There is no medical evidence of such a panacea.  Why haven't we cured AIDS or cancer with this remedy?)

#609
Truffle water cures eye diseases (Again, why has this not been proven?)

#610, 616
Incense cures throat and tonsil diseases (Again, no medical evidence or proofs)

#619, 620, 621, 622
To cure a fever, invoke the name of God and sprinkle the chest with water, since a fever is caused by Hellfire. (I guess modern medicine got it wrong when they claimed it was due to diseases and disorders)

#629
Dying of an abdominal disease makes you a martyr (this is not in the Qur'an nor does it hold any proof in logic)

#630
Plague is a blessing from God (So does this mean that cleanliness and health are from Satan?)

#632, 633, 645, 639, 640, 642, 646
Muhammad and other people are depicted instantly healing people by reciting The Opening and then spitting on the ailing.

#641
Dirt and spit have the ability to cure.

#663, 664, 671
7 'Ajwa dates eaten in the morning makes a person immune to poison and magic.  (I challenge anyone to eat 7 'Ajwa dates and then drink a bottle of potassium cyanide to prove these hadiths)

#672
Muhammad declares all meat of wild animals with fangs as well as female donkeys to be haraam (2:173 states that only the flesh of swine is forbidden.)



So, who's lying?

God?

Muhammad?

The chain of narrators?

Bukhari?
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M.A.R.VV.A.N
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.VV.A.N Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2011 at 4:19pm
You really need to watch this.

Dr. Jonathan Brown, an Introduction to Hadith.

He gets into the complexities.


Edited by M.A.R.VV.A.N - 25 March 2011 at 4:19pm
"I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands even if he's wrong; than the one who comes up like an angel & is nothing but a devil" ~Malcolm X agitating the conservatives, Oxford '64
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Katatonic Bliss  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Katatonic Bliss Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2011 at 5:31pm
Peace,

I don't need to watch anything, I am asking simple questions:

1. Where is the medical proof that cupping is a legitimate medical practice?

2. Where in the Qur'an does God forbid cauterization?

3. Where is the medical proof for black cumin seeds being able to heal all diseases?

4. Where is the medical proof that water from Truffles cures eye diseases?

5. Where is the medical proof that incense cures throat and tonsil diseases?

6. How does saying "Bismillah" and sprinkling water on the chest cure a fever?

7. Where is the proof that a fever is caused by Hellfire and not diseases?

8. How is plague a blessing?

9. Where is the proof that dying due to an abdominal disease makes one a martyr?

10. Where is the proof that reciting The Opening and then spitting on a sick person will cure them?

11. Where is the medical proof that ingesting 7 'Ajwa dates makes you immune to poison for an entire day?

12. With reference to 66:1, 2:173 and other verses, where is the justification for banning the meat of animals other than the pig?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2011 at 5:45pm
Salam

From terms of services:

9. In order to avoid misunderstandings by Non-Muslims visiting this board, discussions/debating and/or promoting sects considered unorthdox by the collective Sunni Ulamah are not allowed, and will be removed. Such groups include Qadianis and Quranites etc.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

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Katatonic Bliss  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Katatonic Bliss Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2011 at 5:48pm
I am not debating, I am awaiting answers to simple and referenced questions.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 1:00am
12 questions at one go is a bit unusual, so we'll take your questions one at a time. I'll take one question, and maybe sister Well Wisher who has a medical background, or other brothers/sisters would like to answer some of your other questions
 
Starting with your first question on cupping, it originated in China, was known in Arabia at the time of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and is still practiced today in Muslim and non-Muslim countries, by both Muslims and non-Muslims
 
Cupping is considered a form of alternative medicine
 
Medical research is being done on cupping (hijama) and found to help cure some illnesses. In the UK for example hijama treatment is legally registered with the Association of Complementary Medicine. For more details:
 
 
 
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

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a well wisher  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 5:04pm
Assalaamualekum brother Ryan
 
Ill answer in points....you did post a long list:)
 
Encountering Islam is like encountering a comprehensive tradition that encompasses all areas of the human condition. This includes medical treatment. Islam has a rich medical history, and has encouraged the pursuit of medical science. As the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, ‘Seek medical treatment, O servants of God, for surely medical treatment is part of God’s Providence.Muslims have always remained open to improvements in medical science, and Islam has never been adverse or opposed to science.
 
Anyways the Prophetic Medicine is a holistic approach to medicine...These days there is a lot of emphasis on holistic healing...its not just the body but the spirit that needs to recuperate in most of the chronic diseases...the attitude to disease itself has to be addressed by the physician if they want the patient to stay out of relapses ...
 
 
This link explains it quite well...Ill post some highlights...

Jawziyya and ad Dahabbi were able to collect the Hadith and Sunnah related to health hygiene, diseases and remedies into scholarly works for the general populace, who held great reverence and love for the Prophet and desired to know his opinions on every subject including these health and medical subjects. Never claiming to be a physician himself and many a times directing his ashabees (companions) to seek the help of a doctor, he none the less on many occasions gave advice on simple ailments, sicknesses and illnesses that he encountered during his life time. These were all faithfully recorded and collected and came to be termed as "Prophetic Medicine".

In the realm of health, hygiene, prevention and treatment of maladies, the Prophet employed both popular remedies of his time as well as spiritual remedies. The latter comprised of recitation of verses of the Holy Quran, duas or prayers (nafl prayers) on various occasions, with successes recorded from his actions by various ‘ashabees’ or companions.. Thus, his was a true "holistic" approach to problems of health.

Is Prophetic Medicine same as Islamic Medicine? Some scholars tend to mix these two genres of Medicines that evolved during the Islamic Era. However to most scholars, these entities although related are considerably different. Perhaps the earliest one to point out this difference was Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406 CE) a well known medieval Muslim jurist, historian, statesman in his ‘Muqaddimah’ 1 Ibn Khaldun states:

The Bedouins in their culture, have a kind of medicine which they base primarily on experience restricted to a few patients only, and which they have inherited from their tribal leaders and old women. In some cases it is correct, but it is not founded on natural laws, nor is it tested against (scientific accounts) natural constitution (of peoples). Now the Bedouin Arabs had a great deal of this type of Medicine before the advent of Islam. There were among them well known doctors like al-Harith ibn Kalada and others. Their Medicine that has been transmitted in the Islamic religious works (as opposed to those works which were considered scientific works) belong to this genre. Prophetic Medicine is definitely no part of divine revelation (to the Prophet: Mohammed pbuh) but it was something customarily practiced by the Arabs. This type of Medicine thus is included in his biographies, and reproduced in his Ahadith and Sunna, just as are other multitudinous of matters of sociological importance like the natural life and customs of the Arabs, but forms no part of religion of Islam, nor does it need to be practiced in the same way.’

The contemporaries (Ashaabees) of the Prophet of Islam had such reverence for him that each of his sayings or traditional practices (Hadith) and customs (Sunna) were recorded in the most detailed manner. See "Hadith" in Encyclopedia of Islam2. These collections although done after the Prophet’s death inquired deep into the authenticity of the sayings and traditions and were chronicled under different subject headings. The most famous of the Hadiths are those of Bukhari, Muslim and Tirmidhi. The one by Imam Bukhari is most comprehensive. The sayings related to dietary recommendations and restrictions, general health and hygiene, first aid measures, treatment of minor ailments are grouped together in one chapter dealing with health matters. Some later Islamic jurists and scholars embarked on an in depth study of the Hadith and Sunnah of the Prophet dealing with health related matters in much greater depth and details and submitted elaborate commentaries on them. These collections were then made available to the Muslim populace as "Prophetic Medcine" or "Tibb-e- Nabawi". One of such collection is: " Zaad Al Maal" (Provisons for the

Our reader is directed to these works as additional sources of information on this subject. hereafter ) which was compiled by Mohammed Ibn Abi Bakr son of Ayyub and popularly known as "Ibn Al-Qayyim al-Jawziyya" (born 1292 CE, 691 AH died 1350 CE 753 AH). Several contemporary translation of the original work has been done. The one’s derived from authentic sources and manuscripts are: 1. Medicine of the Prophet translated by Penelope Johnson3 2.Another emendation of this work was recently published by Mohammed Al-Akili under the title of: "Natural healing with the Medicine of the Prophet" 4

Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya was a great Islamic scholar with in depth knowledge of Quranic commentaries, Islamic jurisprudence and the Sunnah and Traditions of the Prophet. Thus his collections bear some credence as regards their authenticity. However he was not only a theologian but also a practicing physician. He affirms however that the Prophet was guided by divine providence and hence his words if authenticated should be regarded with utmost respect. However they have to be taken in the context: in that these sayings and traditions are not divine injunctions or proscriptions, but are meant to guide the followers with a common sense approach to health and disease problems. And many of these suggestions and approaches have been found on detailed analysis to be not only of practical but may have a scientific bearing as well.

 
 
La ilaha ill-Allah, Muhammadur Rasulullah
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a well wisher  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by Katatonic Bliss

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Peace,

5-7 black cumin seeds crushed into powder, mixed with oil and then dripped into both nostrils can heal any disease except death. (There is no medical evidence of such a panacea.  Why haven't we cured AIDS or cancer with this remedy?)

 
Insha Allah we are still in the process and who knows right....we just might:)

In 1960, Professor El-Dakhakny reported that Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) oil has an anti-inflammatory effect and that it could be useful for relieving the effects of arthritis. In 2002, at the Alexandria Medical Faculty, Alexandria, Egypt (56) he also studied the effectiveness of nigellone and thymoquinone whereby his research partly explained the mode of action of Nigella Sativa (Black Seed)’s volatile oils in ameliorating inflammatory diseases.

In February 1995, doctors at King’s College London, U.K.  investigated the use of  Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) oil for the treatment of rheumatism and inflammatory diseases. Their report concluded that Nigella Sativa does contain strong anti-rheumatic qualities and as such the oil can be used in the a treatment for rheumatism and related inflammatory diseases.

In 2001, doctors at the Aga Khan University Medical College, Karachi, Pakistan, investigated the uses of Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) for its Bronchodilator and spasmolytic qualities. Their studies concluded that Nigella Sativa (Black Seed)’s usefulness for diarrhoea and asthma in traditional medicine appeared to be based on a sound science.

Immune System Support – the Common Cold & Asthma

As a natural remedy, Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) oil as been used for the treatment and prevention of common cold and asthma.
In 1986, Drs El-Kadi and Kandil at I.I.M.E.R. Panama City, Florida, investigated the effect of Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) on the immune system and studied the effect of 1g taken twice daily in human volunteers. They concluded that Nigella Sativa ” may be of great practical significance since a natural immune enhancer like the Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) could play an important role in the treatment of cancer, AIDS, and other disease conditions associated with immune deficiency states.”

These results were confirmed by a study published in the Saudi Pharmaceutical Journal in 1993 by Dr. Basil Ali and his colleagues from the College of Medicine at King Faisal University.

Antibiotic effect

In 1997 researchers at the Department of Pharmacy, University of Dhaka, Bangladesh, conducted a study in which the antibacterial activity of the oil of Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) was compared with five antibiotics: 1) ampicillin, 2) tetracycline, 3) cotrimoxazole, 4) gentamicin, and 5) nalidixic acid.

The Nigella sativa oil proved to be more effective against many strains of bacteria, including those known to be highly resistant to drugs. These included V. cholera, E. coli (a common infectious agent found in undercooked meats), and all strains of Shigella spp., except Shigella dysentriae. Most strains of Shigella have been shown to rapidly become resistant to commonly used antibiotics and chemotheraputic agents.

AIDS
Dr. Haq in research on human volunteers at the Department of Biological and Medical Research Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia showed that Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) enhanced the ratio between helper T-cells and suppresser T-cells by 55% with a 30% average enhancement of the natural killer cell activity. These results are effective enough to consider the oil being used in the treatment of AIDS and the findings of this paper caught the attention of the Archives of AIDS where they were duly published. These results also shed light on why Nigella Sativa Oil has been shown to be so effective in helping treat immune-related disorders including Psoriasis and Cancer.

Analgesic (Pain Relief)

In 2001 at the King Faisal University, Saudi Arabia, Dr Al-Ghamdi investigated Nigella Sativa (Black Seed)’s anti-inflammatory, analgesic and antipyretic activities. He concluded “This study supports its (Nigella Sativa’s) use in folk medicine both as analgesic and anti-inflammatory agent and calls for further investigations to elucidate its mechanism of action.” The anti inflammatory effects were also supported by research in 2003 at the King Saud University, Saudi Arabia.

Antibiotics

In 2005 at the King Faisal University, Al-Ahsa, Saudi Arabia they studied the effects of Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) in conjunction with the anti biotic oxytetracycline (OXT) in pigeons. (An antibiotic commonly used to treat infections of the respiratory and urinary tracts.) They concluded the addition of Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) to the feed of pigeons acted as an immunoprotective agent when chronic administration of antibiotics are considered.

Respiratory System

In most Asian countries Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) and it’s oil are commonly used for the treatment of asthma. Nigellone (a carbonyl polymer of thymoquinone contained in the oil of Nigella Sativa) has proved to be an excellent prophylactic agent for both bronchial asthma and asthmatic bronchitis and has proved to be more effective in children than adults.

Anti Cancer

Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) is now being viewed by many oncologists as a serious herbal remedy to assist in the treatment of cancer. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) have granted 2 patents that involve Nigella Sativa oil for treating cancer, preventing the side effects of anti cancer chemotherapy, and forincreasing the immune system functions in humans. U.S. Pat. No. 5,482,711 and 5,653,981.

At the Amala Cancer Research Centre, Kerala, India in 1991 studies indicated that Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) oil has efficacy as a chemotherapeutic agent. In other studies, it was found that Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) oil diminishes toxic side effects caused by several other chemotherapeutic drugs such as cisplatin and doxorubicin.

Tumour therapy

In 1997 at the Cancer Research Laboratory of Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, USA, it was proven that Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) oil had enormous success in tumour therapy without the negative side effects of common chemo-therapy.

They found that it increased the growth rate of bone marrow cells by a staggering 250% and it inhibited tumour growth by 50%. It stimulated immune cells and raised the interferon production which protect cells from the cell destroying effect of viruses.

They confirmed the strongly anti-bacterial and anti-mycotic effects and they also confirmed that Nigella Sativa has an effect in lowering the blood sugar level which is essential for the treatment of diabetes. The report stated that a healthy immune system will detect and destroy cancer cells before the cancer endangers the patient, and concluded that Nigella Sativa (Black Seed) oil is an ideal candidate for use in cancer prevention and cure and that it has remarkable promises for clinical use.

 
Ok ...The Nobel Prize for Medicine was awarded for research done on prostoglandins in 1982. The fatty acids are up to 50% polyunsaturated and therefore essential for human beings. Nigella sativa (Blackseed) oil can be compared to Borage and Primrose oil for this high essential content yet it has further healing components and is more versatile. It is the essential fatty acids combined with the volatile oil that play the vital role of forming prostoglandin E1 that harmonizes the immune system.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by Katatonic Bliss


#609
Truffle water cures eye diseases (Again, why has this not been proven?)

 
 
Of the more than 250,000 known plant species, less than 1 percent have been thoroughly tested for medical applications. Surprisingly, 25 percent of our prescription medicines come from this tiny portion of tested plants.
 
The United States National Cancer Institute has identified 3,000 plants from which anticancer drugs are or can be made. This list includes ginseng (Panax quinquefolius), Asian mayapple (Podophyllum hexandrum), western yew (Taxus brevifolia), and rosy periwinkle (Vinca rosea).
 
The research may not be there because the potential is maybe untapped... 
 

Truffle is an underground plant that grows without being cultivated by man in the spring. The Arabs used to call it Banat Ar-Ra'd, or the daughter of thunder.

 

Explaining the meaning of the Hadeeth, Ibn Al-Qayyim mentioned three opinions:

•        First: Truffle water is not used alone to cure eye diseases, but it is mixed with other eye medicines. This was reported by Abu ‘Ubayd .

•        Second: After exposing truffle to fire, its water is used as a medicine once it has been distilled, because fire purges it from waste and harmless humidity.

•        Third: The water referred to here is rainwater, which is the first to fall on the earth, according to Ibn Al-Jawzi and it is the weakest opinion. It was also said that its water is a medicine when it is used alone to alleviate eye pain. For other purposes, it is to be mixed with other compositions.

 
 
 
Dr Moataz Marzouqi (Egypt), conducted a research on this issue presented in the Conference of the Prime Islamic Medicine. In his research, Dr Moataz indicated that the use of truffle water (Agaricus campestris) reduces the occurrence of fibrosis following injury, and allergic inflammatory kind. This explains the Prophet's statement (PBUH): "its water heals the eye".
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Katatonic Bliss


#632, 633, 645, 639, 640, 642, 646
Muhammad and other people are depicted instantly healing people by reciting The Opening and then spitting on the ailing.

#641
Dirt and spit have the ability to cure.

 
Check this out....Histatins are the major wound-closure stimulating factors in human saliva.
 

Licking Your Wounds: Scientists Isolate Compound In Human Saliva That Speeds Wound Healing

ScienceDaily (July 24, 2008) — A report by scientists from The Netherlands identifies a compound in human saliva that greatly speeds wound healing. This research may offer hope to people suffering from chronic wounds related to diabetes and other disorders, as well as traumatic injuries and burns. In addition, because the compounds can be mass produced, they have the potential to become as common as antibiotic creams and rubbing alcohol.
 
"This study not only answers the biological question of why animals lick their wounds," said Gerald Weissmann, MD, Editor-in-Chief of The FASEB Journal, "it also explains why wounds in the mouth, like those of a tooth extraction, heal much faster than comparable wounds of the skin and bone. It also directs us to begin looking at saliva as a source for new drugs."
 
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 5:34pm
Thats that for now I guess...
 
Hopefully you got some idea behind the traditions...
 
 
Take care and God bless
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2011 at 2:18am
Originally posted by Katatonic Bliss

So, who's lying? God? Muhammad? The chain of narrators? Bukhari?
 
Al-Salamu' Aleikum Ryan,
 
The only thing lying is your misunderstanding. The interpretation you offered of Qur'an 66:1 is not correct...that's not what that verse is talking about...not even close.
 
To answer your questions individually would be pointless because the understanding they're based on is wrong.
 
The Qur'an is God's literal word, not Hadith, but this does not mean that God cannot forbid something unless He speaks it directly in the Qur'an. If the Prophet (PBUH) forbade something in a hadith, then God forbade it. The prohibition is just expressed in the Prophet's own words, rather than in God's literal word (the Qur'an).
 
God and the Prophet (PBUH) are on the same team, in lock-step. The Prophet (PBUH) will not allow something God has prohibitied, nor will he prohibit his followers from something God has not prohibited. The point you need to understand is that God establishes doctrine, allows and prohibits things both inside and outside of the Qur'an, through the Prophet (PBUH) in Hadith. All are valid.
 
Now, if you can find something that the Prophet (PBUH) made lawful or unlawful, and in doing so contradicted the Qur'an (ie, the Qur'an had either made the thing lawful or unlawful), then by all means bring it forth. I'm sure you'll find us all here sincere, honest people who pride themselves on logic and consistency. If not, then simply correct your misunderstanding and move on.
 
As a final note, your specific conclusions regarding Prophetic medicine are far too extreme. Things don't need to be as black-and-white as you declare. Science has proven quite a few of them, and may yet prove a few more, and even all of them one day.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.VV.A.N Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2011 at 5:08pm
I hope you take Shenango's words to heart, open your mind to the possibility that perhaps, your perspective poses a barrier. Visit the link I posted for you above, John Brown wears a 3 piece suit for the occasion.

Hadith (and the entire science of transmission) is one of the greatest intellectual accomplishments in human history. If you clarify some concepts that save you hundreds of questions...what's that worth to you? Think about it mate.




"I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands even if he's wrong; than the one who comes up like an angel & is nothing but a devil" ~Malcolm X agitating the conservatives, Oxford '64
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Katatonic Bliss Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2011 at 2:20pm
I still haven't received answers to the following:

2. Where in the Qur'an does God forbid cauterization?

5. Where is the medical proof that incense cures throat and tonsil diseases?

6. How does saying "Bismillah" and sprinkling water on the chest cure a fever?

7. Where is the proof that a fever is caused by Hellfire and not diseases?

8. How is plague a blessing?

9. Where is the proof that dying due to an abdominal disease makes one a martyr?

10. Where is the proof that reciting The Opening and then spitting on a sick person will cure them?

11. Where is the medical proof that ingesting 7 'Ajwa dates makes you immune to poison for an entire day?

12. With reference to 66:1, 2:173 and other verses, where is the justification for banning the meat of animals other than the pig?


Peace Shenango,
2:173 (Sahih Int'l)
He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

That's 2:173 up there.  Allah says He has forbidden only these things as far as dietary consumption except in situations where it is essential for survival.

Help me understand: How can Muhammad forbid the eating of other animals in Bukhari #672 when even yourself say the following:

he Prophet (PBUH) will not allow something God has prohibitied, nor will he prohibit his followers from something God has not prohibited.


We already know that if Muhammad invented anything against Allah, Allah would have killed him.  (69:44-47)

Also, if you claim I am not understanding 66:1 where Allah is asking why Muhammad is prohibiting something that Allah did not prohibit, please explain what Allah is saying.
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