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Suheyla  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 4:24am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Originally posted by Suheyla



Originally posted by Aviatrix

Actually, I'm asking. Do you believe we as humans were created with a purpose, or without?
OK. The question of what is the purpose of life is nothing new and has been debated for thousands of years. From Ancient Greek Philosophers to 20th Century Philosophers. It also depends on the religious perspective whether it is from the perspective of Western, Middle Eastern religion or South Asian Religions. For me, the person who best  describes it is (ironically)  Celaleddin Rumi who wrote; "I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went very far but God I found not.Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there.Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else."We each find our purpose in our own way and in our own hearts.


This doesn't really answer my question, though. It talks about where "God" is, which wasn't my question.

Do you think that everyone defines his own purpose? So one person's purpose could be to unite the entire world under his rule while destroying a race of people he doesn't like? Is that legitimate?


Yes. I do believe everyone defines their own purpose in life.

I do not believe in Qadar (which Islam requires).

The purpose in life I believe in I already answered above.

"We each find our purpose in our own way and in our own hearts. "

I find my purpose in life by looking into my heart and follow it. The rule is do no harm.

And no it is never legitimate to harm anyone or any group of people a person doesnt like!  In fact, you have restated the reasons why Quran can not be the words of God.


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talib84  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 4:52am
Sister Aviatrix brings an excellent point to the table...it is self-refuting to say that you believe everyone can define their own purpose but then when the Sister brings up certain scenarios, you make exceptions to your answer.
 
In my opinion, if everyone can make any definition they want for themselves, who is to say what is legitimate and what is not? What authority do you claim to have when you say, "Well this definition is legitimate, but that one is not"? Doesn't that kind of make you a god among people if you're dictating to them what their purpose should be? Unless you can show proof that there is a universal standard which says killing people is wrong, then you're basically trying to impose your own definition of life onto others which is ironic because then you'd be doing exactly what fanatics do (and yet, I take it, you are secular, right?).
 
How can you or anyone else claim that they do not have access to any universal measure of morality yet can decide what is right and what is wrong? Where does this ability come from? Culture? Aliens? Mathematics? Who would be in the best position to define right and wrong for humanity? A group of humans or the One who designed and gave life to humanity? Reason says the latter. How would we access that information? By going to His instruction manual -- the Quran.
 
I love the question the Sister asked you...it was excellent and brought up an extremely obvious point that helps to clarify things.
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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Suheyla  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 4:59am
Originally posted by waheed1

Originally posted by Suheyla

Originally posted by Aviatrix

Actually, I'm asking. Do you believe we as humans were created with a purpose, or without?


OK.

The question of what is the purpose of life is nothing new and has been debated for thousands of years. From Ancient Greek Philosophers to 20th Century Philosophers. It also depends on the religious perspective whether it is from the perspective of Western, Middle Eastern religion or South Asian Religions.

For me, the person who best  describes it is (ironically)  Celaleddin Rumi who wrote;

"I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.

I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.

I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went very far but God I found not.

Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there.

Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.
"

We each find our purpose in our own way and in our own hearts.


This is actually one of my favorite Rumi quotes. He has another, which a speaker in our Mosque shared recently. He said "I [Rumi] am a citizen of every country, because every country belongs to [my] God."

In any case, the above quote is pretty consistent with the Qur'anic teachings, and even has some support from hadeeths. Although I am now paraphrasing, the Qur'an itself says that even asking about God, thinking about God, is sufficient to summon his presence. It also says that he is closer than the jugular vein.


First I'm glad you find Rumi's teachings appealing and that his name comes up in a positive way in your Mosque. As you know, Sufi devotional practices, although not welcomed by mainstream Islam, generally viewed favorably Worldwide.

I personally do not share your views that Quran itself encourages a similar philosophy. Sufis believe that it is possible to draw closer to God and to more fully embrace the divine presence in this life. Pursue Love of God.

Quran does not emphasize any such love. Instead Quran highlights the Fear of God. Taqwa.
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Suheyla  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 5:05am
Originally posted by talib84

Sister Aviatrix brings an excellent point to the table...it is self-refuting to say that you believe everyone can define their own purpose but then when the Sister brings up certain scenarios, you make exceptions to your answer.
 
In my opinion, if everyone can make any definition they want for themselves, who is to say what is legitimate and what is not? What authority do you claim to have when you say, "Well this definition is legitimate, but that one is not"? Doesn't that kind of make you a god among people if you're dictating to them what their purpose should be? Unless you can show proof that there is a universal standard which says killing people is wrong, then you're basically trying to impose your own definition of life onto others which is ironic because then you'd be doing exactly what fanatics do (and yet, I take it, you are secular, right?).
 
How can you or anyone else claim that they do not have access to any universal measure of morality yet can decide what is right and what is wrong? Where does this ability come from? Culture? Aliens? Mathematics? Who would be in the best position to define right and wrong for humanity? A group of humans or the One who designed and gave life to humanity? Reason says the latter. How would we access that information? By going to His instruction manual -- the Quran.
 
I love the question the Sister asked you...it was excellent and brought up an extremely obvious point that helps to clarify things.



Look up 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

Incidentally Islam (based on Quran) fails the basic human rights test. Please read the articles before you respond.
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talib84  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 5:06am
Let's just say that is true, though, that we have some kind of innate knowledge of right and wrong not based on what a god or goddess or designer made us with. Where did this come from? When did we, evolving from simpler primates, turn around and gain such mystical knowledge? I mean, not just talking about murder or killing, but about anything that is considered wrong. Who made those wrong, and who's to say they are in fact wrong? And if they are common sense or logical or innate, then why aren't these principles universally shared? I'm pretty curious. I never understood these claims, but I'm always interested to learn.
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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talib84  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 5:11am

Originally posted by

]

Islamist criticism

Islamist countries such as Sudan, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have criticized the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for its perceived failure to take into the account the cultural and religious context of Islamist countries.[citation needed] In 1982, the Iranian representative to the United Nations, Said Rajaie-Khorassani, articulated the position of his country regarding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, by saying that the UDHR was "a secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition", which could not be implemented by Muslims without trespassing the Islamic law.[20] On 30 June 2000, Muslim nations that are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference[21] officially resolved to support the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam,[22] an alternative document that says people have "freedom and right to a dignified life in accordance with the Islamic Shari’ah".[23] This document does recognize the freedom to change religion (Article 10), equate women as equals to men (Article 6), and maintains neutrality when comparing religions.

Interesting...
 
So a group of people in the mid-20th century decided to vote on what was right and what was wrong, and as long as they agreed to it, it must be true. I'm sorry, but again, this doesn't make much sense. How come they have the power to choose what is right and wrong for everyone, but me and another group of guys can't do the same? Is it because they have more power than me and thus I must submit to what they view as just? I'm sorry, but the Declaration of Human Rights is hardly a good argument for defining what is unquestionably true or false. This is not an inspired scripture, it is a list of people's opinions. Don't get me wrong, I agree with much of it, but that's because I choose to agree, not because it's actually right or wrong for me.
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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Suheyla  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 5:19am
Originally posted by talib84


Interesting...
 
So a group of people in the mid-20th century decided to vote on what was right and what was wrong, and as long as they agreed to it, it must be true. I'm sorry, but again, this doesn't make much sense. How come they have the power to choose what is right and wrong for everyone, but me and another group of guys can't do the same? Is it because they have more power than me and thus I must submit to what they view as just? I'm sorry, but the Declaration of Human Rights is hardly a good argument for defining what is unquestionably true or false. This is not an inspired scripture, it is a list of people's opinions. Don't get me wrong, I agree with much of it, but that's because I choose to agree, not because it's actually right or wrong for me.


Try this ...

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a1


Here are first few articles. Tell me if you have problems with them as a human being and why.


Article 1.

  • All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

 

Article 2.

  • Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

 

Article 3.

  • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

 

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms
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Suheyla  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 5:21am
Please think if Quran supports those articles or NOT.

Will be back tomorrow ... Thanks.
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talib84  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 8:14am
Wow, these articles are too general.
 
Consider this...
 

Article 3.

  • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

What about criminals? Do they cease to be human? Should we still give criminals these rights even though they belong in jail? What if an inmate wants to enjoy a certain meal that prison prevents him from enjoying?

Like any man-made law, these try to do the right thing, but they just fall short. Consider what it means to have the right to life, liberty and security of person. Where does it start? Where does it end? Who really is allowed this? We can both can agree that certain citizens are not allowed to have these such as criminals (for the behaviors they've shown).
 
I have no problem with Article 1. Article 2 is great. Article 3 really needs to be realistic. Article 4 I disagree with. I think that the articles shouldn't be that liberal with the use of the pronoun "Everyone" because we both know that this is impossible.
 
The writers did do well, though. I admire their desire to use their own intellects to create the modern religion for mankind. These articles just need to be a bit more realistic if they're really going to solve mankind's problems.
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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talib84  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 8:16am
Originally posted by Suheyla

Please think if Quran supports those articles or NOT.

Will be back tomorrow ... Thanks.
 
Well, of the ones you listed, the Quran supports most of it.
"To be sure, Jesus will come and will restore all things. But I tell you, Jesus has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished."
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waheed1  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 8:23am
Originally posted by Suheyla


Originally posted by Aviatrix

Originally posted by Suheyla



Originally posted by Aviatrix

Actually, I'm asking. Do you believe we as humans were created with a purpose, or without?
OK. The question of what is the purpose of life is nothing new and has been debated for thousands of years. From Ancient Greek Philosophers to 20th Century Philosophers. It also depends on the religious perspective whether it is from the perspective of Western, Middle Eastern religion or South Asian Religions. For me, the person who best  describes it is (ironically)  Celaleddin Rumi who wrote; "I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went very far but God I found not.Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there.Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else."We each find our purpose in our own way and in our own hearts.


This doesn't really answer my question, though. It talks about where "God" is, which wasn't my question.

Do you think that everyone defines his own purpose? So one person's purpose could be to unite the entire world under his rule while destroying a race of people he doesn't like? Is that legitimate?
Yes. I do believe everyone defines their own purpose in life. I do not believe in Qadar (which Islam requires). The purpose in life I believe in I already answered above.

"We each find our purpose in our own way and in our own hearts. "
I find my purpose in life by looking into my heart and follow it. The rule is do no harm.And no it is never legitimate to harm anyone or any group of people a person doesnt like!  In fact, you have restated the reasons why Quran can not be the words of God.



I think Qadr has been misunderstood here as it is. It's a long subject, beyond the scope of this post in a thread asking if the Qur'an is God's literal word, but basically Qadr is the notion that whatever one will get in life, you will get.
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 8:33am
First I'm glad you find Rumi's teachings appealing and that his name comes up in a positive way in your Mosque. As you know, Sufi devotional practices, although not welcomed by mainstream Islam, generally viewed favorably Worldwide.

I personally do not share your views that Quran itself encourages a similar philosophy. Sufis believe that it is possible to draw closer to God and to more fully embrace the divine presence in this life. Pursue Love of God.

Quran does not emphasize any such love. Instead Quran highlights the Fear of God. Taqwa.


Taqwa is a favorite subject of mine. Taqwa is best defined as "caution". Admittedly, it carries many, many meanings and implications, among them being "respect" "regards". It's not the same as "fear" of a gun, for example. They usually translate it as God fearing or piety, but even these translations do little justice to the phrase.

Taqwa was defined by a companion of the Prophet Muhammad [Peace be upon him] by the name of 'Ubayy ibn Ka'ab. He defines it as 'Lifting one's clothes so as to not be damaged by bushes".

Basically, being prudent.


There are different types of sufis with different levels of commitment to Islamic law and practice. Quotes from Rumi and Inayat Khan are only part of a vast mosaic, yet it is these that many in the West go after, arguing that ''orthodox" Islam is austere and devoid of spirituality.

The Qur'an does, in fact, direct its readers to love God, to pursue closeness to him. In fact, it tells us how to do it.

Here's yet another link to another video clip on the subject.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lN7U32iJKo

To obtain the entire lecture, contact me.
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Suheyla  
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by talib84

Wow, these articles are too general.
 
Consider this...
 

Article 3.

  • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

What about criminals? Do they cease to be human? Should we still give criminals these rights even though they belong in jail? What if an inmate wants to enjoy a certain meal that prison prevents him from enjoying?

Like any man-made law, these try to do the right thing, but they just fall short. Consider what it means to have the right to life, liberty and security of person. Where does it start? Where does it end? Who really is allowed this? We can both can agree that certain citizens are not allowed to have these such as criminals (for the behaviors they've shown).
 
I have no problem with Article 1. Article 2 is great. Article 3 really needs to be realistic. Article 4 I disagree with. I think that the articles shouldn't be that liberal with the use of the pronoun "Everyone" because we both know that this is impossible.
 
The writers did do well, though. I admire their desire to use their own intellects to create the modern religion for mankind. These articles just need to be a bit more realistic if they're really going to solve mankind's problems.


Article 1.

  • All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

 

Article 2.

  • Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

 

Article 3.

  • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

 

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms


Comments:

Islam  view ...

On Article 1
-- Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in  a court of law  is worth half that of a man; their movement  is strictly restricted, they cannot marry a non-Muslim

So you have no problem with it. But Quran does.



On Article 2 --   Non - Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammed who said " Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia ",
 non - Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles etc.

So you think Article 2 is great. In Many Muslim Countries, non-Muslims are persecuted based on their religions.  Ther was even a court case in Malaysia to stop Christians using the word "Allah" to refer to God, as you culturally in Muslim Countries Allah is simply a generic term for God for Muslims and non-Muslims alike. They burned the Churches down in protest to stop Christians from using the word Allah.

On Article 3 --    Non-believers -- atheists ,  in Muslim countries do not have    "the  right to life ".

This is not what you thought that criminals have a right to run wild and be free. We all have to obey the laws and not infringe on anyone else's rights, property or pursuit of happiness. Of Course, those who break the law must be punished.  But as society, a State can not have "laws" that force people to believe in a certain way.

On Article 4 --   This is fundamental in human freedom. Slavery is recognised in the Quran. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (Quran 4:3);  they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (Quran 4:24)

So for these basic reasons alone Quran can not be the words of the Creator.
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bullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by waheed1


I think Qadr has been misunderstood here as it is. It's a long subject, beyond the scope of this post in a thread asking if the Qur'an is God's literal word, but basically Qadr is the notion that whatever one will get in life, you will get.


Yes it is a long subject. But well within  the thread topic.

Particularly because Muslims believe that Destiny is what Allah decreed. Qadr. Regretfully, Muslims suffer themselves from such fatalistic view on life and lack the drive to improve their own lot in life. A sad example might be an Earthquake of the same magnitude will cause a very little loss of life whilst it may (and many times has) kill thousands of lives in Muslim Countries. This repeats at the detriment of Women and Children because they take refuge in Qadr rather than improving the substandard constructions.

Therefore, if Muslims did not view Quran to be God's word literally, accepted it as simply faith, they would be less willing to leave all in God's hands and not repeat Inshallah countless times throughout the day.
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