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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 7:20am
Originally posted by Francophile

And just for your info, Indonesia has ALOT of Christians too (through toleration).  So I wouldn't be concerned tbh.
 

Persy, you are a million laughs. Toleration of Christians in Indonessia? How do you come up with this stuff?


Yeah it is pretty comical....Here we have people talking about supposed Christian 'hate' sites and Persy mentions about a policy of "toleration" of Christians in Indonesia...is this an admission that there is an intollerance of Christians among some Islamic nations ? Is it just me or is their a blindness to hypocasy here.. Websites after all are just websites....and the good the bad and the ugly among them exist on both sides of the debate...

Edited by Damo808 - 13 December 2011 at 7:22am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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AdhamS  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 8:01am
Originally posted by Damo808

Relax Auzer.
 Type two words into Youtube's search bar 'Christianity and Islam' and see how many pro Islamic uploads there are compared to pro Christian uploads.. which boast about 'revert' conversion stories, about how the 'Bible led them to Islam' etc etc etc. Certainly not all of them can be called balanced by a long way. Its one way traffic however by and large towards Islam.
 Youtube dwarfs any apologetics site by hits many times over. Maybe the case is that some 'Muslims' are getting tired of hearing the same old claims of grandeur of who is guided and who isn't and perhaps like to learn about other faiths rather than be told what to believe about them.
 
 
 
Reverts are increasing day by day no one can deny that and its pretty rational to find lots of videos about some of them on youtube even if they are many. Something you dont hear much about Muslims leaving Islam. To be fair I watched some of the videos that of Muslims becoming christians and to be honest the only honest video I ever saw of a Muslim becoming a christian was about the son of one of Hamas' Leaders who became an agent for the Israel's security agency.
 
I have seen in real life Muslims who became atheists but not Muslims who became chrisitians or jews. Its usually Muslims to Atheist that happens more than Muslims turning to christianity.
 
The western media will need new actors if they want to show that new muslims are entering christianity-no offense.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 8:17am
Reverts are increasing day by day no one can deny that and its pretty rational to find lots of videos about some of them on youtube even if they are many. Something you dont hear much about Muslims leaving Islam. To be fair I watched some of the videos that of Muslims becoming christians and to be honest the only honest video I ever saw of a Muslim becoming a christian was about the son of one of Hamas' Leaders who became an agent for the Israel's sI have seen in real life Muslims who became atheists but not Muslims who became chrisitians or jews. Its usually Muslims to Atheist that happens more than Muslims turning to christianity.

The western media will need new actors if they want to show that new muslims are entering christianity-no offence.






None taken....though perhaps some just people live in rose tinted denial of reality...I just love how Muslims only....are able to judge who are legitimate converts an who aren't....So 99% or Muslim converts to Christianity are fake....yet were to believe that 99% of 'reverts' are genuine...after all according to Hamayoun "we muslims dont lie about converts" seriously its like reasoning with 7 year old kids! !!
Perhaps the reason there are so many 'revert' stories is because there is no threat to their life, their families lives or their way of life! !! Maybe when the playing field is a little more even things may change...


Edited by Damo808 - 13 December 2011 at 8:18am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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AdhamS  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 8:42am
Originally posted by Damo808

Reverts are increasing day by day no one can deny that and its pretty rational to find lots of videos about some of them on youtube even if they are many. Something you dont hear much about Muslims leaving Islam. To be fair I watched some of the videos that of Muslims becoming christians and to be honest the only honest video I ever saw of a Muslim becoming a christian was about the son of one of Hamas' Leaders who became an agent for the Israel's sI have seen in real life Muslims who became atheists but not Muslims who became chrisitians or jews. Its usually Muslims to Atheist that happens more than Muslims turning to christianity.

The western media will need new actors if they want to show that new muslims are entering christianity-no offence.






None taken....though perhaps some just people live in rose tinted denial of reality...I just love how Muslims only....are able to judge who are legitimate converts an who aren't....So 99% or Muslim converts to Christianity are fake....yet were to believe that 99% of 'reverts' are genuine...after all according to Hamayoun "we muslims dont lie about converts" seriously its like reasoning with 7 year old kids! !!
Perhaps the reason there are so many 'revert' stories is because there is no threat to their life, their families lives or their way of life! !! Maybe when the playing field is a little more even things may change...
 
Lol, How we can tell is pretty simple, when they speak about the reasons why they left Islam, you can immediately say its fake. For example a Former Muslim says "You cannot find God being merciful or loving in the quran" or " I went to my Muslim priest who serves as my connection with Allah" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?! Thats how I react because they then claim they read the Quran a BILLION TIMES and stuff like that and they cant get the most facts about islam right.
              
          Most of the Muslims who change their faith,travel to western nations especially Canada and get the Canadian nationality. Blame the media in Canada for not showing them. So tell us, how do you know that not all revert videos are real? I told you how I find out, what about you?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 9:48am
Guess why.....?    For the same reasons you gave me... i'd have thought that was obvious
 
  Not just on Youtube either.. but i've seen in forums even some reverts who talk about their 'disillusionment' of Christianity because of X,Y and Z.. of which are not really Christian beliefs at all but misconceptions about what Christians believe.. 
 
Don't get me wrong.. I will say that due to the Reformation.. there are many Christian sects out there who are only Christian by name alone IMO and do more harm to the Faith than good.   Such is the freedom of secularism and there is no copyright if you like on the Christian faith. So I can see where much dis-ilusionment comes from.. so many sects are so paper thin on theology that it takes scant research to see that what they preach just doesn't stand-up.. So many who do the research leave and join the next movement which by and large is no more credible than the last..and so after some exploration of that movement they then judge Christianity as a whole on what they've gleaned from but 2 or 3 of the 30,000 or so reformed denominations that exist out there. So on that note i believe there are some people who reject Christianity altogether for atheism, buddism and yes even Islam because of this.
 
 Perhaps however Muslims who change their religion change their nationality also because there is less risk to their lives for doing so... ever considered that..? Though blame the previous culture for that...


Edited by Damo808 - 13 December 2011 at 9:55am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Damo808

Guess why.....?    For the same reasons you gave me... i'd have thought that was obvious
 
  Not just on Youtube either.. but i've seen in forums even some reverts who talk about their 'disillusionment' of Christianity because of X,Y and Z.. of which are not really Christian beliefs at all but misconceptions about what Christians believe.. 
 
Don't get me wrong.. I will say that due to the Reformation.. there are many Christian sects out there who are only Christian by name alone IMO and do more harm to the Faith than good.   Such is the freedom of secularism and there is no copyright if you like on the Christian faith. So I can see where much dis-ilusionment comes from.. so many sects are so paper thin on theology that it takes scant research to see that what they preach just doesn't stand-up.. So many who do the research leave and join the next movement which by and large is no more credible than the last..and so after some exploration of that movement they then judge Christianity as a whole on what they've gleaned from but 2 or 3 of the 30,000 or so denominations that exist out there. So on that note i believe there are some people who reject Christianity altogether for atheism, buddism and yes even Islam because of this.
 
 Perhaps however Muslims who change their religion change their nationality also because there is less risk to their lives for doing so... ever considered that.. though blame the previous culture for that...
 
I can agree with this to some extent. I've seen plenty of Christians become Muslims because they believe God was leading them there, or they felt it was right, or it made sense compared to their current religion, etc. Many former Christians I've met haven't actually read the Bible in depth or studied it. This is not just for former Christians from Christianity to Islam but also from Christianity to atheism, agnosticism, Buddhism, you name it.
 
But for the most part, Perse is right. It's very rare to see a Muslim who had at least some fundamental understanding of his or her religion become a Christian. I imagine they exist somewhere, though. I'd assume they were becoming Christian for secular reasons though such as marriage or for a job or status or something. But most "former" Muslims that I've met became agnostic or atheist.
 
Now, I did meet plenty of Nation of Islam or 5 Percenter Muslims who became Christians, but even they'll tell you that they weren't the real deal Muslims. I met a former 5 Percenter at my old church and he was explaining to me that most members of these groups like NOI are not really Muslims in the sense of Sunnis, Shias, etc. But as for traditional Muslims, I've never met a single one that became a Christian or Jew or any other religion besides a total disbeliever in religion.
 
There are plenty of former Christians who have embraced Islam, though. Some former Christians were scholars or pastors. Some were very heavily involved with their churches. Some went looking for the truth through all the Christian sects only to find that the true message of Christ (as) was in Islam, not modern Christendom.
 
So I too have my doubts of the veracity of the claims on YouTube or Christian sites that there were former Muslims who became Catholic or Born Again or anything of the such. I know it's not impossible, but I feel it's highly unlikely.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:20am
And you can't pull out the card that they'd risk their lives for becoming a different religion...they don't even desire it. I did meet a few who said they would become Christian, but they were saying it for all the wrong, misinformed reasons. Christians are not typically seen as the ones highest in morality, many are very public about their sinful lifestyles. Some of the sinful things are appealing to the less religious Muslims like dating, drinking, etc. So they think that becoming a Christian allows them to have sex before marriage, get drunk with their friends, etc. IMO, these types of individuals just need to find God and these are the ones likely most influenced by their cultures.
 
But we live in the modern world where people are free to do what they want without a pope or caliph telling them how to live. Maybe in some Muslim country it might be the case that converting could cost your life, but not in Europe or the US.
 
I mean, what does Christianity offer that Islam doesn't? What do Muslims find in Christianity that they cannot find in Islam? Maybe an easier lifestyle (no need to pray, no need to observe inconvenient scriptural laws, etc.). But for the most part, as my father (a former Catholic turned agnostic) says: Islam is the upgrade of Christianity as Christianity is the upgrade of Judaism. What he means is that (in his view of course), Christianity took Judaism and made it better or at least enhanced it, and Islam did the same to Christianity. You don't go backwards (though it does happen), you just go forward. I've met Christians who became Jews, but only because of marriage reasons (on an episode of Seinfeld, one Christian becomes a Jew just so he can make Jewish jokes lol). I think the same is for Islam. Muslims don't go backwards in the ladder.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:37am
But for the most part, Perse is right. It's very rare to see a Muslim who had at least some fundamental understanding of his or her religion become a Christian.
 
-Talib
 
 
 But its also just as rare to find Muslims who have little or nothing to loose in regards switchin religion...It usually comes with great negative concequences ranging from being regarded as an outcast by immediate and extended family in Western culture, to being an ostracised by them and society in predominantly Islamic countries to the point of having their life placed in peril and even that of their immediate family.. That backdrop cannot be ignored but sadly often is. Hence when people talk about great numbers leaving Christianity for Islam, i shake my head and laugh in loud.


Edited by Damo808 - 13 December 2011 at 11:38am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Damo808

But for the most part, Perse is right. It's very rare to see a Muslim who had at least some fundamental understanding of his or her religion become a Christian.
 
-Talib
 
 
 But its also just as rare to find Muslims who have little or nothing to loose in regards switchin religion...It usually comes with great negative concequences ranging from being regarded as an outcast by immediate and extended family in Western culture, to being an ostracised by them and society in predominantly Islamic countries to the point of having their life placed in peril and even that of their immediate family.. That backdrop cannot be ignored but sadly often is. Hence when people talk about great numbers leaving Christianity for Islam, i shake my head and laugh in loud.
 
In my univeristy, former muslims would say it loud and clear, many of them actually lived in the West most of their lives and could not be considered a "fundamental muslim" I know this case with 2 former muslims, half palestinian half indian who lived all their life in Canada and just recently came to the middle east. One became agnostic and the other an Atheist!
           I checked videos of Muslim scholars who became christians...and I was laughing. Maybe both of us were laughing but that Priest in Germany that burned himself because of the increase of number of revert in Germany wouldnt.
               There is only one to confirm..at least...some of the videos on youtube are legit. There is an American who has his own channel (Catholic to Muslim sunni) I forgot what he is called and he seems to be someoe who made a deep study into Christianity and considered a devout Catholic. Lets confirm if he is legit or not, but you will do all the hardwork and I will eat the popcorn nom nom!
 
 
Note: going to the West is partially for safety but mostly for the "freedom".


Edited by AdhamS - 13 December 2011 at 12:01pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Damo808

But for the most part, Perse is right. It's very rare to see a Muslim who had at least some fundamental understanding of his or her religion become a Christian.
 
-Talib
 
 
 But its also just as rare to find Muslims who have little or nothing to loose in regards switchin religion...It usually comes with great negative concequences ranging from being regarded as an outcast by immediate and extended family in Western culture, to being an ostracised by them and society in predominantly Islamic countries to the point of having their life placed in peril and even that of their immediate family.. That backdrop cannot be ignored but sadly often is. Hence when people talk about great numbers leaving Christianity for Islam, i shake my head and laugh in loud.
 
But Damo, you're missing the fact that even in the West among Christians if a person abandons their religion for the sake of Islam they are likely to be disowned, talked about, treated unfairly, etc. In my family, I lost the closeness with most of my relatives. My immediate family is behind me no matter what, but not my relatives anymore. Sister Nura was just talking about how her father treats her for becoming a Muslim. Social pressure is on both sides of the camp, not just the Muslim side.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by talib84

Originally posted by Damo808

But for the most part, Perse is right. It's very rare to see a Muslim who had at least some fundamental understanding of his or her religion become a Christian.
 
-Talib
 
 
 But its also just as rare to find Muslims who have little or nothing to loose in regards switchin religion...It usually comes with great negative concequences ranging from being regarded as an outcast by immediate and extended family in Western culture, to being an ostracised by them and society in predominantly Islamic countries to the point of having their life placed in peril and even that of their immediate family.. That backdrop cannot be ignored but sadly often is. Hence when people talk about great numbers leaving Christianity for Islam, i shake my head and laugh in loud.
 
But Damo, you're missing the fact that even in the West among Christians if a person abandons their religion for the sake of Islam they are likely to be disowned, talked about, treated unfairly, etc. In my family, I lost the closeness with most of my relatives. My immediate family is behind me no matter what, but not my relatives anymore. Sister Nura was just talking about how her father treats her for becoming a Muslim. Social pressure is on both sides of the camp, not just the Muslim side.
I thought Nura was Saudi, sorry! my bad.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Perseveranze Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Damo808


Yeah it is pretty comical....Here we have people talking about supposed Christian 'hate' sites and Persy mentions about a policy of "toleration" of Christians in Indonesia...is this an admission that there is an intollerance of Christians among some Islamic nations ? Is it just me or is their a blindness to hypocasy here.. Websites after all are just websites....and the good the bad and the ugly among them exist on both sides of the debate...


Peace,

Just like the toleration of Muslims in the west, where our religious practices are banned such as niqaab, public prayers, and halaal meat. Even in places like Italy, where the religion is growing fast, they won't build new mosques to accomdate us; rather they only have 1 mosque in the whole country. France is pretty much the same problem, too many Muslims, very few mosques.

And I was talking in a historical context, here's a famous quote by a Christian author who pretty much sums up the story as accuratly as possible -

“…We may feel certain that if Western Christians, instead of the Saracens and the Turks, had won the dominion over Asia, there would be today not a trace left of the Greek Church, and that they would never have tolerated Muhammadanism as the 'infidels' have tolerated Christianity there. We (Christians) enjoy the fine advantage of being far better versed than others in the art of killing, bombarding and exterminating the Human Race." (Bayle P., Dictionary, 'the article Mahomed', 1850)





Edited by Perseveranze - 13 December 2011 at 1:29pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 1:28pm
I'm an Italian expatriate
 
Yes, if you live in Saudi Arabia or Iran or Pakistan you risk a lot if you convert to any other religion. Of course it's more dangerous than a Christian who becomes Muslim in Europe or the USA, and still even this is not a piece of cake. Families are going to be disappointed by one of their members changing religion, and this is true for all faiths.
 
For Damo: Do you know Magdi Cristiano Allam?
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 1:31pm
Note: going to the West is partially for safety but mostly for the "freedom".
 
-Adhams..
 
 Doesn't that say it all...??
 
.Enjoy your popcorn but that saved me any work.. I could care less about individual uploads on Youtube...TBH.. i find it all rather petty,  the fact that they wish to parade about it however only further evokes your point above...
 Keep wearin those rose tints..
 
 
But Damo, you're missing the fact that even in the West among Christians if a person abandons their religion for the sake of Islam they are likely to be disowned, talked about, treated unfairly, etc. In my family, I lost the closeness with most of my relatives. My immediate family is behind me no matter what, but not my relatives anymore. Sister Nura was just talking about how her father treats her for becoming a Muslim. Social pressure is on both sides of the camp, not just the Muslim side.
 
-Talib
 
 Talib... c'mon.. Ofcourse there will be some dis-harmony for those who leave Christianity for Islam among their imediate family, to suggest otherwise would be plain silly. But to suggest the situation is the same on either side is also rather silly... by a long long shot. If you deny that then your being disingenous or extremely nieve... i doubt the latter. Do we REALLY need to go there ? I'm game ...
 
 



Edited by Damo808 - 13 December 2011 at 1:39pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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