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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Perseveranze

Originally posted by talib84

 
But yet Perse is right, we still see regular Christians and pastors from the Protestant sects burning Qurans, putting down Islam, using lies and deceptive tactics to win converts, etc.


Asalaamu Alaikum,

Most aren't even reported. But when a Muslim does it, it's all over the news.

Did you hear about;

Christian stoning someone because they are gay, yet no news coverage of it - http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/shocking-stoning-in-philadelphia-of-homosexual-what-if-they-were-muslim/

Or the Christian terrorist attempt to shoot Obama, yet little coverage - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYaDeR9UucM

Many here - http://whatiftheyweremuslim.com/

So many examples. Yet only when Muslims do it, we know about it.

As you stated earlier, there are sadly bad apples in every religion or faith or group of people.


 
I have to laugh at one of the person's comments:
 
Originally posted by

]
Rev. Candace Chellew-Hodge says it all: “Bibles don’t kill people, ignorant Bible readers kill people.”
 
At least one normal reader commented:
 
Originally posted by

]
 
/\ All of your above comment can be applied to extremists of *any* creed. And I do like the ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ as an idea even if it is a little impractical vis a vis in real life, that would mean not being able to prosecute anyone for anything becuase we all have sin.
 
They are biased. They want to only see it when Muslims do it. When Christians do it, it's an "exception". It's like how people look at minorities as criminals, but when a member of the majority does it, it's an "exception".
 
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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by Damo808

I don't deny that Muslims might have it worse than Christians do, but then how do you explain how so many Muslims gave up their religion in favor of a religious ideology like atheism? They're still giving up Islam, only they're not doing it for Christianity.
-Talib
 
 
  Perhaps because with such indoctrination in their youth and in their everyday culture, Islam has the uncanny knack of driving ANY belief in God from people altogether... This has nothing to do with Christianity...
Truth is, there is persecution in both camps. The Muslim camp might be stricter and tougher, but there is still persecution in both camps.
 
 Well Talib ... For every example you show me of where there is a fatality due to conversion, i'll provide you with ten... hows that ? we'll see who still has plenty of amo to continue, and how long it will be before the thread is closed..
 
 
 
 And you say that people born into Islam but who don't believe in it are in a spiritual prison.
Well this may be true to some extent, depending on where you live. But don't you think that this same variable applies to Christianity as well? Christians in strong Christian states like Uganda or some other third-world culture might have similar experiences as Muslims in Muslim countries.
 
 As i said... lets take my challenge above, and we'll see how disproportionate the problem is... what do you say ?
Or what about the stories I hear of Arab Christians who leave Christianity to become Muslims? There was a story either in this forum or by one of my Egyptian friends that two Egyptian Christians converted to Islam and they both disappeared. Then the Muslims started protesting because they were killed.
 
 I see... two you say... unfortunate..hence why i say we need to find out just how big the problem is on either side..
 
 So are you game ? For every fatality due to conversion you provide, i must provide ten... ? Surely if situation is the same i'll run out of instances fairly quickly ?
 
 
Damo, you have to admit that some cultures are much more resistant to change, independent of religion. Like I pointed out, there are Christians in certain parts of the world that act as Muslims do in certain parts of the world.
 
 
 
 Sure there are... But the point is they are extremely rare and do not happen in everfy corner of the world like it does within Islam even in Non Islamic countries.... I'd be more than happy to detail them Talib..
 
Damo, how 'bout this one?
 
For every PROTESTANT that has turned to Catholicism, I'll show you ten Christians that became Muslim.
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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2011 at 11:49pm
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Nura  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 3:58am
Originally posted by Damo808

I'm an Italian expatriate
Yes, if you live in Saudi Arabia or Iran or Pakistan you risk a lot if you convert to any other religion. Of course it's more dangerous than a Christian who becomes Muslim in Europe or the USA, and still even this is not a piece of cake. Families are going to be disappointed by one of their members changing religion, and this is true for all faiths.
For Damo: Do you know Magdi Cristiano Allam?
 
-Nura
 
 
 
 At first i wasn't familiar by name.. but after googling it .. i remember the news concerning it... but in all honesty i was thinking .. BIG Deal at the time..
 
But Nura.. even in many secular Western countries still have problems with serious threats towards ex-Muslims.. i could catalogue them they are not rare, to restrict them to being commonplace in only predominantly Islamic countries is not telling the full story.
 
Hi Damo, I wanted to ask you what do you think about him.
For me, I'm not against his decision to embrace Catholicism, it's his own choice and should carry it on.  I don't even agree with those who has criticized the Pope for giving him baptism on public TV: baptizing is the Pope's job, and the huge media coverage it's not his businness.
 
But what bothers me it why those Muslims who convert to another religion don't define themselves as Christians or whatever they are, but always as Ex-Muslims. Magdi Allam is not trying to spread Christianity or to do something for his new faith, rather he is obsesses with his old faith. He alo founded a political party in Italy, and do you think it was a Christian party? No, it was an anti-islamic party. He has written a lot of books against Islam and Muslims (and sold a lot).
That's why most Muslims see his conversion as hypocrisy. Look, I converted to Islam and I'm happy with my religion, I don't have any interest in destroying Catholicism or painting Catholics as monsters, the way he does with Islam and Muslims.
 
Just a side note: a friend of my mother, an Algerian woman living in Italy, converted from Islam to Catholicism 33 years ago. She married and Italian man (who's now dead) and had children. It was never a big deal, neither with her family, nor did the people around her make a fuss about it. This obsession with Islam grew in the last 10-15 years (not only because of 9/11), and God knows when it's going to finish.  
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 4:24am
Damo, how 'bout this one?

For every PROTESTANT that has turned to Catholicism, I'll show you ten Christians that became Muslim.
-Talib

I'm sure you might well be able to.... But its not exactly a common Catholic thing to want to go public about changing ur faith and say ' look at me'.... But again ...this is the liberty 'reverts' have....Which is kinda the whole point Talib hence why my challenge I believe would provide some insight as to why ex-muslims may wish to remain pretty much under the radar...
So again...to speak of conversion ratio is completly nonsensical given the adversity which Muslims appear to be in denial of..
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 4:46am
Hi Nura

Ill be completely honestly with you...I really did not pay the matter with that man any more attention than a glance in the newspaper at the time.... I'm aware that many Muslims are suspicious of his motives but either way to me what he does or believes is his business and not mines...just like anyone else who converts or 'reverts'.... tbh...I believe such things are personal and should remain so. But your point that he doesn't declare himself as Christian but ex-Muslim may be true... But Nura...I do hate to harp on about the same thing...but I do believe you are of the few on here who can view things with an open mind...But such behavior is IMO typified by 'reverts' to Islam...please just go to YouTube and type Christianity Islam and see how many people are exactly like him....who are quick to say they they where ex-Catholic, Christian etc followed by bashing their former faith....look and you will find that it is one way traffic of Muslims who do it... Its obviously encouraged...I find it petty in some way rather childish and attention seeking...If ex Muslims where to post such stuff of the same nature they would most certainly be ostracized by at best a d at worst be taking a huge risk....That is the sad reality IMO... If there was no issue then fatalities and hostility wouldn't exist...but they do and so obviously Muslims have issues of insecurity in this regard whilst pretending everything is rosey putting up this falsehood about conversion ratios but speak not of hostility towards those who dare go the opposite way....Who needs 'reality' like that ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Nura  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 7:27am
Originally posted by Damo808



I do hate to harp on about the same thing...but I do believe you are of the few on here who can view things with an open mind...But such behavior is IMO typified by 'reverts' to Islam...please just go to YouTube and type Christianity Islam and see how many people are exactly like him....who are quick to say they they where ex-Catholic, Christian etc followed by bashing their former faith....look and you will find that it is one way traffic of Muslims who do it... Its obviously encouraged...I find it petty in some way rather childish and attention seeking...
 
Yes, you are right, I was thinking about converts to Islam whom I know personally and I have never noticed this attitude, but it may be true for "famous" converts.
Again, I'm not opposing that Muslims turning to Christianity (and vice-versa) who described the reasons why they weren't satisfyied with their religion. I hate those who arass the religion itself and its people, like Ayan Hirsi Ali, Magdi Allam, the German-Turk Neckla Kelek etc.
 
 
BTW I don't understand this thing about "apostasy". Prophet Muhammad prescribed death for murderers, adulterers and for those who "having embraced Islam, turn  back to another religion", and only for men, not women, so it's evident that it refers only to those who joined the Muslim army and then were guilty of trachery. Nowadays people don't "embrace" Islam (except converts), are just bron into it, so why forcing them to stay in a religion they have not chosen? This is for me againt the spirit of Islam.
 
 
For example, I chose Islam out of free will, so I should be beheaded if I turn back
 
(And then the Saudi religious police knocked Nura's door, and she was never ever seen again on WI forum...)


Edited by Nura - 14 December 2011 at 7:29am
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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AdhamS  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 7:55am
[
 
 
 
 
 
Good question sister nura and I had a feeling that sooner or later you will ask it. Did you read about the Apostasy wars during the reign of Abu Bakr? When a number of Arab tribes WHO JOINED ISLAM BY CHOICE later on left Islam as their leaders started to claim that they are the new prophets after Prophet Muhmmad PBUH. A good example would be Mosailama Al Kathab. ;)
 
And for the bad analogy I used, I meant a CURRENT member of the US army going to Russia.
 
Let me say this : I have seen more than one "muslim" who joined Islam just to get married to a muslim lady and they are not truly muslims. This punishment for leaving Islam is supposed to MAKE EVERYONE WHO JOINS ISLAM THINK TWICE ABOUT HIS DECISION (sorry if I appeared to be raging). We want true believers, this is not a game where you join one day and then turn on it the next day!
 
Sister Nura, me and you now belong to the same nation, leaving it is like betraying the nation. Its like that FBI agent who supplied the Ruskys with Top secret information (I think his name is Hansen) a couple of years ago.
 
        This is like the Base line of the whole subject of apostating, I will talk to a famous scholar in Kuwait I know him personally and discuss with him this matter enshallah.


Edited by AdhamS - 14 December 2011 at 7:57am
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 8:51am
But this is 2012.... NOT the days of Islamic conquests....!!!! were not talking about army's of supposed conspiritors joining Islam with alterior motives to derail a religious ideology..... If one person decides EVEN after joining Islam that its not for them...then let God be their judge not you or anyone else... They pose no threat to anyone else spiritualy but themselves...Catholicism for example takes conversion extremely seriously and it takes more than a declaration of faith to become one in fact it takes several weeks so that they know exactly what they know they are getting into and if its for them before they receive any of the sacraments ...if they then find that Catholicism is not for them they cannot say that they joined something without realizing what they where getting into...If after that they then decide to leave then so be it...it is upon their soul...it does not affect Catholicism adversely and certainly does not warrant any hostility...There may however be people out there who do get into Islam and feel its right for them then later feel differently after taking their shahadah <<<<< forgive the
spelling if wrong... This doesn't mean that they were initially flippant or maybe it does...but it doesn't mean they had alterior motives for joining....Its not always black and white...Islam however judges it to be so..

Edited by Damo808 - 14 December 2011 at 8:56am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Francophile  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 12:49pm

It is impossible for me, as an American, to comprehend why any group would want to control the religious beliefs of others.

 
For one thing, if the penalties for leaving Islam are so dire, who can know the degree of sincerity of an individual Muslim?
 
For another thing, suppose one reverted without adequate knowledge of the strictures of the religion. Once enlightened, why can't such a person change his or her mind?
 
Consider the case of a young person without much worldly experience. How easy it might be to convince such a person to 'revert', but what happens when the person is older?
 
As for the death penalty, what evidence is required? Who judges? Who applies the punishment.
 
As we can all see, such things lead to vigilantism.
WHY is it anyone else's business what one's religious beliefs or lack thereof are?
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Damo808

But this is 2012.... NOT the days of Islamic conquests....!!!! were not talking about army's of supposed conspiritors joining Islam with alterior motives to derail a religious ideology..... If one person decides EVEN after joining Islam that its not for them...then let God be their judge not you or anyone else... They pose no threat to anyone else spiritualy but themselves...Catholicism for example takes conversion extremely seriously and it takes more than a declaration of faith to become one in fact it takes several weeks so that they know exactly what they know they are getting into and if its for them before they receive any of the sacraments ...if they then find that Catholicism is not for them they cannot say that they joined something without realizing what they where getting into...If after that they then decide to leave then so be it...it is upon their soul...it does not affect Catholicism adversely and certainly does not warrant any hostility...There may however be people out there who do get into Islam and feel its right for them then later feel differently after taking their shahadah <<<<< forgive the
spelling if wrong... This doesn't mean that they were initially flippant or maybe it does...but it doesn't mean they had alterior motives for joining....Its not always black and white...Islam however judges it to be so..
I disagree with you...many muslims or should I say former muslims did believe in Islam but when their leaders who joined Islam out of hypocricy declared they are prophets and etc... they fell for them and believed them. As I said, if someone will join Islam, he should join it out of  crystal clear complete confidence. 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 1:39pm
The things I 'knew' when I was twenty have little relationship to the things I know now that I'm in my fifties.
 
Are Muslims supposed to muzzle their brains once they convert?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Francophile

It is impossible for me, as an American, to comprehend why any group would want to control the religious beliefs of others.

 
For one thing, if the penalties for leaving Islam are so dire, who can know the degree of sincerity of an individual Muslim?
 
For another thing, suppose one reverted without adequate knowledge of the strictures of the religion. Once enlightened, why can't such a person change his or her mind?
 
Consider the case of a young person without much worldly experience. How easy it might be to convince such a person to 'revert', but what happens when the person is older?
 
As for the death penalty, what evidence is required? Who judges? Who applies the punishment.
 
As we can all see, such things lead to vigilantism.
WHY is it anyone else's business what one's religious beliefs or lack thereof are?
 
 
What's the punishment for a person that betrays his country??
 
If someone betrays Islam and speaks about it publicly, he would encourage muslims with weak faith to do the same and abandon Islam.
 
Same with traitors betraying his nation, if he is left unpunished, it would encourage other people to betray their country.
 
There is evidence from the ahadith for it. And for the young revert, he should have thought about it completely. This is not a game.
 
Loyalty to your country is the same as loyalty to Islam.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Celal Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by AdhamS

 
Loyalty to your country is the same as loyalty to Islam.


That is likely an accurate statement. You are saying Islam is a State religion. Not between you and your God.
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