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Celal  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Celal Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Francophile

 
As for the death penalty, what evidence is required? Who judges? Who applies the punishment.

 
 


It appears the self appointed ambassadors of God.
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AdhamS  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Celal

Originally posted by AdhamS

 
Loyalty to your country is the same as loyalty to Islam.


That is likely an accurate statement. You are saying Islam is a State religion. Not between you and your God.
Do you mind elaborating please? As I found on Dictionary.com State religion means "
the official religion of a state as established by law."
 
 
 
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AdhamS  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Celal

Originally posted by Francophile

 
As for the death penalty, what evidence is required? Who judges? Who applies the punishment.

 
 


It appears the self appointed ambassadors of God.
wrong answer, I will be answering this question soon but at the moment I am currently busy.
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Perseveranze
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Perseveranze Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Francophile

As for the death penalty, what evidence is required? Who judges? Who applies the punishment.
 


Peace,

There's split views on it;

Hanafi scholars maintain that a female apostate should not be killed because it was forbidden to kill women by the Islamic prophet Muhammad, and because women are unlikely to take up arms and endanger the community.[5]

According to Wael Hallaq apostasy laws are not derived from the Qur'an.[6] In modern times, some Islamic scholars oppose any penalty for apostasy, including Gamal Al-Banna,[7][8] Taha Jabir Alalwani,[9] and Shabir Ally.[10] Quran Alone Muslims do not support the apostasy penalty, citing verses from Qur'an which advocate free will.[11]

Others believe that the death penalty can only be applied when apostasy is coupled with attempts to "harm" the Muslim community, rejecting the death penalty in other cases. These include,[1][12][13] Ahmad Shafaat,[14] Jamal Badawi,[3] Yusuf Estes,[15] Javed Ahmad Ghamidi,[16] and Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji.

However, Zakir Naik stated that if a former Muslim speaks against Islam then that is considered as treason and punishable by death in a country ruled by Islamic law, he also stated that he does not know of any country which is ruled by 100% Islamic law.,[17][18][19] a view which is held by other contemporary Islamic scholars such as Bilal Philips,[20] and Yusuf al-Qaradawi,[21] the latter reduces the punishment to imprisonment till repentance in the case of an apostate who did not proclaim apostasy,[22]


And I'm not sure why you act suprised, Apostasy execution is far more vivid in Christianity and Judaism then in Islam.

In fact, the Quran contradicts it. The reason why it's ever considered is based on Hadith alone and even then there's a few problems.

The Quran -

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth is distinct from error!” (Quran, 2:256)

“And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?” (Quran, 10:99)

“And had God willed, He could have made you all one [religious] community, but He sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills.  But you shall certainly be called to account for what you (yourself) used to do [i.e. not what others used to do].” (Quran, 16:93)

“The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve.”
(Quran, 18:29)

“Exhort them to believe; your task is only to exhort. You cannot compel them to believe.”  (Quran, 88:21-22)

“Those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the Way.”
(Quran, 4:137)

Hadith -

Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to Muhammad for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to Muhammad "cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Muhammad said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good."[3]


Another hadith reports that Ubayd-Allah ibn Jahsh converted to Christianity and Muhammad also left him unharmed.[65][66]


Historically;

According to Muslim Islamic scholar Cyril Glassé, death for apostasy was "not in practice enforced" in later times in the Muslim world, and was "completely abolished" by "a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260AH/1844AD."[67]

More info.

My opinion; If you leave Islam, fine. But if you then begin to hate on it and start doing what alot do (though most are fake) such as; "Islam is the root of evil" etc. Then ofcourse you deserve to be executed.

Leave, but do it in peace. Otherwise don't cause chaos and corruption in the land.











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Celal  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Celal Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by AdhamS

Originally posted by Celal

Originally posted by AdhamS

 
Loyalty to your country is the same as loyalty to Islam.


That is likely an accurate statement. You are saying Islam is a State religion. Not between you and your God.
Do you mind elaborating please? As I found on Dictionary.com State religion means "
the official religion of a state as established by law."
 
 
 


I thought I was simply elaborating on what you said. It was you who argued that it is treasonous to leave Islam and "same" as disloyalty to your Country.

The only way that can be true if and only if Islam is a State religion. Since leaving Islam is punishable by law in many Muslim States, to varying degrees,  that employ Sharia Laws, is  proof that Islam is the religion of the State, and supports what you said.
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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 
But this is 2012....
 
Please don't rush the deadline for the Mayan prophecies to be fulfilled
 
We're still safely in 2011


Edited by talib84 - 14 December 2011 at 7:04pm
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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Damo808

But this is 2012.... NOT the days of Islamic conquests....!!!! were not talking about army's of supposed conspiritors joining Islam with alterior motives to derail a religious ideology..... If one person decides EVEN after joining Islam that its not for them...then let God be their judge not you or anyone else... They pose no threat to anyone else spiritualy but themselves...Catholicism for example takes conversion extremely seriously and it takes more than a declaration of faith to become one in fact it takes several weeks so that they know exactly what they know they are getting into and if its for them before they receive any of the sacraments ...if they then find that Catholicism is not for them they cannot say that they joined something without realizing what they where getting into...If after that they then decide to leave then so be it...it is upon their soul...it does not affect Catholicism adversely and certainly does not warrant any hostility...There may however be people out there who do get into Islam and feel its right for them then later feel differently after taking their shahadah <<<<< forgive the
spelling if wrong... This doesn't mean that they were initially flippant or maybe it does...but it doesn't mean they had alterior motives for joining....Its not always black and white...Islam however judges it to be so..
 
You try getting out of a contract in the secular world lol.
 
Jokes aside, we still have contracts here in the West that, if broken, are punishable by law. Granted, these do not call for the death penalty, but they do call for imposing fines and meting out jail sentences. Make an agreement with the government and then try to get out of it, see where that lands you. Even make an agreement with a non-governmental company or organization and then try to get out of that also.
 
The shahada is a contract just like any other. However, in my personal view, I can't see why someone living in a land where shariah law is not practiced should be executed or get into trouble when they did not commit the crime in their borders.
 
To add something different, though, Muslims don't view shahada as simply joining a religion. Islam is not just a religion, it's a whole lifestyle, government, etc. mixed into one big thing. When you say your shahada, not only are you now a Muslim (a believing follower of Islam), but you're also a brother or sister to another Muslim. You have certain rights over other Muslims as they have over you (these are normally explained to you when you embrace Islam). You can go for hajj, a city that is not permitted for non-members/citizens. You are privileged with the ability to marry fellow members of the Islamic religion. You are entitled to certain privileges and benefits from other Muslims. This is more like a membership, a citizenship, rather than just a state of belief.
 
For this reason, I feel that an apostate has betrayed his covenant with God and the Messenger (saws), he betrayed his agreement and contract with his fellow Muslims and his community, and he is overall a turncoat. I'm speaking only for converts/reverts, not people born into the religion. For those born into the religion, I think that they should be raised as Muslims but given the chance to make their own decision. So if someone raised as a Muslim decides he likes Satanism or Atheism or some deviant off-shoot of Islam, that's his choice and he is not, in my opinion, leaving his religion. But if he comes to Islam later in his life and leaves it again, then he willfully became a Muslim and then broke his word.
 
But this is only the way I view it. And just to add, it doesn't matter if it's 2012 or 1012 or 12 (or 5012), a contract is a contract and while the heavens and earth will pass away, God's word will remain forever. Unless of course God Himself changes this.
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talib84  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Francophile

The things I 'knew' when I was twenty have little relationship to the things I know now that I'm in my fifties.
 
Are Muslims supposed to muzzle their brains once they convert?

I think we're all forgetting that you can follow the religion and even believe in it 100%, but you're not a Muslim until you publically commit yourself to the religion, the cause, etc.
 
If you're not ready for long-term commitment, then don't publically announce the words of the covenant with the intention of making other Muslims aware that you are accepting the contract of their Deen.
 
I view it in the same way that 17-year olds sign up for the military and can't back out of that commitment, even if it means they'll likely die in war.


Edited by talib84 - 14 December 2011 at 7:07pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 5:39pm

After reading all the posts here, I think that the concept of Islam is beyond the comprehension of most non-Muslims (and I imagine even some Muslims). Islam is not simply a belief system like modern-day Christianity or spiritualism. It is supposed to be a template for living. Based on what I see in modern religions, Islam seems to be unique in that it is not quite a religion in the sense of the modern usage of the word. In the modern usage of the word, religion tends to imply personal spiritual beliefs and personal practices, but this is not definitive of Islam (though it is part of Islam). Islam is not really a country in the way we understand a country, either. I guess the only way I can explain it is that Islam is a mixture of both.

 
Once you stop looking at Islam as just a religion, things might make more sense. And associating regimes around the world with representations of Islam is also wrong. Islam might be a state religion in many countries, but Muslims all pledge allegiance to Islam, no matter what country they're in. I hope that makes sense.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 8:25pm
Given what's been said to by some Muslims on here who seem to endorse hostility against people who have a change of heart in life spiritualy I can only say that perhaps when someone is inducted into Islam that it is made clear to them that should they wish to leave it after embracing it regardless of how long or short... they may find themselves in mortal danger or on the recieving end of serious hostility....This for many may become apparent too late sadly.... True ...when many people take out contracts in life if they find they cannot maintain their side of the agreement they face penalties ....but such penalties are declared up front before a signature is obtained... When one takes their Shahadah...such harsh penalties are are not mentioned to them beforehand...This is deceptive... Those born into Islam however are signed up without the freewill of 'reverts'.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 8:39pm
When you say Islam is a way of life, a template for living, etc., you describe Judaism.  One difference is a person is free to leave Judaism, convert to another religion or none and come back to Judaism, no questions asked and certainly no threats or penalities.  And the bit about Islam constituting a 'nation'??  Pure Judaism 101 and this binding of people is called Zionism.  See how similar they are?



Originally posted by talib84

After reading all the posts here, I think that the concept of Islam is beyond the comprehension of most non-Muslims (and I imagine even some Muslims). Islam is not simply a belief system like modern-day Christianity or spiritualism. It is supposed to be a template for living. Based on what I see in modern religions, Islam seems to be unique in that it is not quite a religion in the sense of the modern usage of the word. In the modern usage of the word, religion tends to imply personal spiritual beliefs and personal practices, but this is not definitive of Islam (though it is part of Islam). Islam is not really a country in the way we understand a country, either. I guess the only way I can explain it is that Islam is a mixture of both.

 
Once you stop looking at Islam as just a religion, things might make more sense. And associating regimes around the world with representations of Islam is also wrong. Islam might be a state religion in many countries, but Muslims all pledge allegiance to Islam, no matter what country they're in. I hope that makes sense.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 9:25pm
I was going to use Judaism as an example for comparison, but it seems whenever I (or another Muslim) say anything, there are a hundred posts telling them that they're wrong for some reason. So to save everyone the time of going off track, I just decided to leave Judaism out of it.
 
However, now that it's been brought up, I think that you need to be honest about differentiating modern Judaism from Biblical Judaism. Worshiping other gods not only could get individuals killed but could get the whole nation in a heap of trouble.
 
Nowadays when we refer to Judaism, we refer to the kind you seem to belong to, the one where instead of admitting they're Jewish, they say they're "Agnostic". IMO, a totally different religion from that of the Bible.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2011 at 9:25pm
...and a reason why Christ (as) was sent.
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Perseveranze
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Perseveranze Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2011 at 6:35am
Originally posted by Corinna

When you say Islam is a way of life, a template for living, etc., you describe Judaism.  One difference is a person is free to leave Judaism, convert to another religion or none and come back to Judaism, no questions asked and certainly no threats or penalities.  And the bit about Islam constituting a 'nation'??  Pure Judaism 101 and this binding of people is called Zionism.  See how similar they are?


Peace,

Religion comes from the word religos (something like that), which is a latin word, it means binding.

Such a word is never used anywhere in the Quran, the word Muslim and Islam are used for the first time. Islam, which alot of westerners inaccuratly call a religion, derives from the word peace and doesn't mean "binding", it means "way of life", there's a big difference.

If you read my post above, people are free to leave the faith in peace, if any geniunly do, then certainly no one troubles them, alot of it is exageration for those who say they're "scared" or whatever. Most which aren't even geniune in the first place.

Look how many so called "ex-muslims" who were "afraid of their life" suddenly start to insult the Prophet(pbuh) and Islam. All of a sudden, they become fearless. It's just a bunch of hoax to mislead people, which never works, except for those that are really gullable or Islamphobes.

One thing is ofcourse true though, we dislike those who take Islam as a motel, something in which they can just "walk in any time and leave any time", I'm pretty sure Catholics and other religious groups would feel the same way. Especially Catholics, who as Damo has described, have this whole system to be accepted in the first place.

Look how many Muslim reverts have such difficult times with family and friends, most who's parents are hostile to them, especially if they're Christian parents. This same thing applies to every family that is religious, it's just how it is.






Edited by Perseveranze - 15 December 2011 at 6:36am
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