Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
General Discussion
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : General Discussion
Message Icon Topic: Growth of Islam can be threatened by this!! Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Author Message
Nura  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5039
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 7:31am
Sorry if my posts have different fonts and sizes, but my bowser doesn't give me the options to adjust it. I have only the options "bold", "italic", "underlined" and "text colour", not font and size.
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Francophile  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Agnostic(Agnostic)
Posts: 1370
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 8:20am
I think he meant me. I have all the options but don't know how to use them.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Corinna  
Graduate
Graduate

Religion: Judaism(Orthodox)
Posts: 2184
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Nura

Originally posted by Corinna

 
BTW, did you know that the percentage of Christians now living in Bethlehem is 1% or lower?  Another shame.  

It's also a shame that some people peretrate such gross disinformation. Christians in Betlehem make up between 40% and 50% of the population.
Still, the have decreased in the last decades. Wikipedia explains it this way:  You seriously need to use updated information, possibly from sources that are closer to the situation than independent contributions at wikepedia.

In 2008: 
The Muslim Fatah-controlled authority in Judea and Samaria is encouraging a "sharp demographic shift" in Bethlehem, where the Christian population went from a 60 percent majority in 1990 to a 40 percent minority in 2000, to about 15 percent of the city's total population today.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Controls/SendFriend.ashx?print=1&type=0&item=127592  (Zionist source, huh?)

In 2009: 

Back to the exodus: Fifty years ago, Christians made up 70 percent of Bethlehem's population; today, about 15 percent.

Indeed, the Christian population of the entire West Bank -- mostly Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, with Copts, Russian Orthodox, Armenians and others -- is dwindling.

But, again, the story's the same in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere in the Mideast. Practically the only place in the region where the Christian population is growing is in Israel.

In Bethlehem, Christians now feel besieged. Growing numbers of rural southern West Bankers from the Hebron area have moved north to Bethlehem in recent years. Many see the land as Waqf -- belonging to the Muslim nation. They increasingly buy or confiscate land -- and talk of laws to ban Christian landownership.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/bethlehem_exodus_jH6iVNuarsPLBceXPzHO6I#ixzz1ghiqKv7T

That's just a tiny sample of more recent, better documented information than wikpedia has, Nura.  Check Pew and Hudson Institutes.

I guess you would agree, dear Corinna, that having a higher birth rate is not a "fault" of Muslims, isn't it?  Did I mention "fault"?  I am not laying blame as you are wont to say,  I am imparting factual information.  Yes, there is a higher birth rate among Muslims in that area which goes along with worldwide data that there are higher birth rates among the poorly educated and isolated ethnic groups . . and also among those who wish to conquer via quantity.  That seems to be a no brainer.

And for the "physical and psychological stress", guess who is responsible?  Besides Muslims themselves, I suppose you mean Israel, the boogey boo of the neighborhood.   LOL   Pray tell, just exactly how does Israel do this?  Don't forget it is a fact that Arab Christians in Israel are better educated and wealthier than those of most any other ME country (and a larger percentage).  Also, those Arab Palestinians (of no religion or any religion) who are allowed by the PA to work in Israel are better educated, wealthier and more talented than their peers sitting at home.  Physically and psychologically, they are way ahead because they are fulfilling their desires to excel, work, assimilate, attain peace, etc.  Again, a no brainer.


Besides, don't forget that for Palestinian Christians is easier to emigrate than for Muslims, due to the higher number of Christian OMG and the general higher education of Arab Christians compared to Muslims, so why don't leaving that hell of a country to look for a better future somewhere else?   OK, so work on the education aspect of those Left Behind and I don't mean in bomb making and terrorism.  And look at Egypt currently, Lebanon and Syria too, for scurrilous situations of Christians (and it isn't Israel's "fault") since the upheaval in that country.  LOL

 
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
AdhamS  
Freshman
Freshman

Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 77
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 10:29am
Originally posted by Nura

And my point remains the same: since there is no compulsion in religion, or into religion, or into the deen, the law of apostasy should maybe be enforced on those who converted out of free will, like me or Talib, but not on those who are born into Muslim families. Otherwise where is the "no compulsion"?
 
I would go further anyway, and say that such a law made sense at the beginning of the Muslim Ummah, when it was threatened by many enemies and most of all Beduin Arabs, who would convert only for convenience and then leave Islam as it was nothing.
Look at Surah Al Hujurat:
 
The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
 
The Beduins used to "submit" without true faith. Their continuos change of sides put the Muslims in great trouble, that's why it had to be stopped with a threaten.
Nowadays, people like the Afghan Aburrahman, who left Islam for Catholicism, are no threat for our Ummah. Let him be a Catholic is he wishes, his Muslim wife has the right to a divorce and his family can obstracize him if they wish and keep relationship with him if they wish. It's not matter for the Islamic state, in my opinion.
Ukhti Nura (you know the meaning of ukhti right? By the way if you dont mind, I want to know more about your experience living in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate, arnt you married to a muslim Saudi? Anyway sister if you dont want to answer then I understand.
 
Back to the subject, I believe that they are more dangerous to the Ummah than they were in the past. A good example would be the son of a Hamas' leader who became a spy for Israel. People who support him would say he was spying on a "terrorist organization" (note: I dont agree with alot of Hamas methods but I still see them as a freedom fighter organization). First of all he is an ARAB which gives him a huge advantage over other Israeli spies, he could have been sent to other arab countries as well. In a future war between the arabs and Israel who do you think he will stand with? The same thing with that Magdy dude who SOMEHOW became a vicious attacker on anything that has an Islamic scent!
 
   I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it, but this will encourage the people with already weak faith to do so as well, its like encouraging people to desert and we all know the punishment of deserters. Although this is harsh but sister, alot of youth this days being one of them doesnt know a thing about their religion except what they were taught and many of them were not even taught anything. They can be tempted to leave their religion which they already know almost nothing about because Person X is now having a happy life somewhere in America with a bottle of Red wine 1875 laying on the beach with his girlfriend.
 
      You should know that we muslims now dont you see you as an Italian, but a muslim. Unfortunately in the real world its not like that due to nationalism brought in by the west during the colonization period and etc and during the fall down of the Islamic empire, a good example would be al andalus.
 
In other words things SHOULD and enshallah one day will become like this:
 
name: Nura Nationality: Muslim  Gender: Female
 
 
And we all know whats the punishment for someone who betrays his nationality right?
 
 
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Francophile  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Agnostic(Agnostic)
Posts: 1370
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Francophile Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 10:34am
I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it,
 
Why, yes, this is the usual reason one wants to change one's faith. But why 'just because'? Should they remain in a faith with which they don't agree?
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
AdhamS  
Freshman
Freshman

Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 77
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Seeking

Originally posted by AdhamS

  [
Thanks for reminding me,its hard to focus on a single debate when you are trying to do a billion thing simultaneously including bring the sources from my favorite list that is now covered by spider webs,besides its 2 AM where I am at and I can barely open my eyes let alone have a good debate.
 Although these are all excuses I am technically not making any excuses :P In other words I will bring you the citations...but not now please man...I am going to fall on my keyboard.
 
 
ha ha.  Slow down; breathe deeply.  There's no rush.  Don't feel pressured about a "debate."  It's a discussion.
 
 
 
About Africa, they could have used it as their ace card against Islam dont you think? Showing that Africans are being guided to enlightenment and away from this medieval backward cave cult and etc.... dont you think?
 
 
No.  I don't think that.  It's clear you are worked up about something.
 
 
Note: you can check it out if you want, just google it and you will find catholic websites speaking about MILLIONS ALL OVER the world leaving Islam and joining christianity.
 
No.  I'm not interested in keeping score between religions.  You are the one making claims about who is leaving what, and why.  So it is on you to provide the data.  When and if you want to. I am not anticipating it, as I don't think it exists.
 
 
What do you mean by "keeping score" between religions? The catholics said something and I am just criticizing it. Even if it was Muslims who are saying that I would have criticized them.
   Well yeah I am the one making the claim but as I said in the quote "you can check it out IF YOU WANT". I am not saying naah you bring the sources. I will bring the sources but maybe I thought you were curious and didnt want to wait.
 
Anyway, I found this on wiki Islam (trying to find my catholic website), check out what it claims on Africa http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Population)
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
AdhamS  
Freshman
Freshman

Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 77
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Francophile

I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it,
 
Why, yes, this is the usual reason one wants to change one's faith. But why 'just because'? Should they remain in a faith with which they don't agree?
A muslim who wants to change his religion can if he want to, as long as he is not going to make it public.
 
He can hang out with people who dont care about Islam although they are muslims  as well if he or she wants.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
talib84  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 3984
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Francophile

I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it,
 
Why, yes, this is the usual reason one wants to change one's faith. But why 'just because'? Should they remain in a faith with which they don't agree?
 
I know a couple of people who converted to Judaism who have absolutely no belief in it but have converted for other, secular reasons.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
talib84  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 3984
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 11:14am
Originally posted by AdhamS

Originally posted by Nura

And my point remains the same: since there is no compulsion in religion, or into religion, or into the deen, the law of apostasy should maybe be enforced on those who converted out of free will, like me or Talib, but not on those who are born into Muslim families. Otherwise where is the "no compulsion"?
 
I would go further anyway, and say that such a law made sense at the beginning of the Muslim Ummah, when it was threatened by many enemies and most of all Beduin Arabs, who would convert only for convenience and then leave Islam as it was nothing.
Look at Surah Al Hujurat:
 
The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
 
The Beduins used to "submit" without true faith. Their continuos change of sides put the Muslims in great trouble, that's why it had to be stopped with a threaten.
Nowadays, people like the Afghan Aburrahman, who left Islam for Catholicism, are no threat for our Ummah. Let him be a Catholic is he wishes, his Muslim wife has the right to a divorce and his family can obstracize him if they wish and keep relationship with him if they wish. It's not matter for the Islamic state, in my opinion.
Ukhti Nura (you know the meaning of ukhti right? By the way if you dont mind, I want to know more about your experience living in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate, arnt you married to a muslim Saudi? Anyway sister if you dont want to answer then I understand.
 
Back to the subject, I believe that they are more dangerous to the Ummah than they were in the past. A good example would be the son of a Hamas' leader who became a spy for Israel. People who support him would say he was spying on a "terrorist organization" (note: I dont agree with alot of Hamas methods but I still see them as a freedom fighter organization). First of all he is an ARAB which gives him a huge advantage over other Israeli spies, he could have been sent to other arab countries as well. In a future war between the arabs and Israel who do you think he will stand with? The same thing with that Magdy dude who SOMEHOW became a vicious attacker on anything that has an Islamic scent!
 
   I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it, but this will encourage the people with already weak faith to do so as well, its like encouraging people to desert and we all know the punishment of deserters. Although this is harsh but sister, alot of youth this days being one of them doesnt know a thing about their religion except what they were taught and many of them were not even taught anything. They can be tempted to leave their religion which they already know almost nothing about because Person X is now having a happy life somewhere in America with a bottle of Red wine 1875 laying on the beach with his girlfriend.
 
      You should know that we muslims now dont you see you as an Italian, but a muslim. Unfortunately in the real world its not like that due to nationalism brought in by the west during the colonization period and etc and during the fall down of the Islamic empire, a good example would be al andalus.
 
In other words things SHOULD and enshallah one day will become like this:
 
name: Nura Nationality: Muslim  Gender: Female
 
 
And we all know whats the punishment for someone who betrays his nationality right?
 
 
 
There are at least two things we're overlooking:
 
1) Only God has the power to guide or mislead. This is clear from the Quran itself. A person cannot force a person to believe, and in the same way, a person cannot force another person to disbelieve. God is responsible for that.
 
2) If a person is raised to Muslim parents, we assume the person is a Muslim. However, did this person reach the age of puberty yet to make such a decision on his or her own? (Of course all children are Muslim, but this is not what I'm talking about.) If the person did reach puberty, and did not make a public declaration of being a Muslim, is he a Muslim based solely on the background of his parents? I think that someone born into the religion has a lot more leniency to choose their religion than someone who actually professes belief and commitment to Islam as reverts do.
 
My son is being raised as a Muslim. He's still young now, but when he gets older, he will learn everything we can teach him about Islam. My wife and I intend to sign him up for nothing but Islamic programs insha'Allah, but does that make him a Muslim? Right now yes, he's a Muslim. But when he reaches the age to make his own decisions, and if he turns to me and says "I feel that your religion is false, I'd rather be a witch", I cannot consider him an apostate because he was never a self-professed Muslim to start with.
 
But this discussion is very deep and should be addressed by scholars more, I'm just giving my own opinion that the notion of forcing children to be Muslims simply because they were born to Muslim families goes against the Quran itself, regardless of what traditions it might agree with.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
AdhamS  
Freshman
Freshman

Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 77
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote AdhamS Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by talib84

Originally posted by AdhamS

Originally posted by Nura

And my point remains the same: since there is no compulsion in religion, or into religion, or into the deen, the law of apostasy should maybe be enforced on those who converted out of free will, like me or Talib, but not on those who are born into Muslim families. Otherwise where is the "no compulsion"?
 
I would go further anyway, and say that such a law made sense at the beginning of the Muslim Ummah, when it was threatened by many enemies and most of all Beduin Arabs, who would convert only for convenience and then leave Islam as it was nothing.
Look at Surah Al Hujurat:
 
The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
 
The Beduins used to "submit" without true faith. Their continuos change of sides put the Muslims in great trouble, that's why it had to be stopped with a threaten.
Nowadays, people like the Afghan Aburrahman, who left Islam for Catholicism, are no threat for our Ummah. Let him be a Catholic is he wishes, his Muslim wife has the right to a divorce and his family can obstracize him if they wish and keep relationship with him if they wish. It's not matter for the Islamic state, in my opinion.
Ukhti Nura (you know the meaning of ukhti right? By the way if you dont mind, I want to know more about your experience living in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate, arnt you married to a muslim Saudi? Anyway sister if you dont want to answer then I understand.
 
Back to the subject, I believe that they are more dangerous to the Ummah than they were in the past. A good example would be the son of a Hamas' leader who became a spy for Israel. People who support him would say he was spying on a "terrorist organization" (note: I dont agree with alot of Hamas methods but I still see them as a freedom fighter organization). First of all he is an ARAB which gives him a huge advantage over other Israeli spies, he could have been sent to other arab countries as well. In a future war between the arabs and Israel who do you think he will stand with? The same thing with that Magdy dude who SOMEHOW became a vicious attacker on anything that has an Islamic scent!
 
   I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it, but this will encourage the people with already weak faith to do so as well, its like encouraging people to desert and we all know the punishment of deserters. Although this is harsh but sister, alot of youth this days being one of them doesnt know a thing about their religion except what they were taught and many of them were not even taught anything. They can be tempted to leave their religion which they already know almost nothing about because Person X is now having a happy life somewhere in America with a bottle of Red wine 1875 laying on the beach with his girlfriend.
 
      You should know that we muslims now dont you see you as an Italian, but a muslim. Unfortunately in the real world its not like that due to nationalism brought in by the west during the colonization period and etc and during the fall down of the Islamic empire, a good example would be al andalus.
 
In other words things SHOULD and enshallah one day will become like this:
 
name: Nura Nationality: Muslim  Gender: Female
 
 
And we all know whats the punishment for someone who betrays his nationality right?
 
 
 
There are at least two things we're overlooking:
 
1) Only God has the power to guide or mislead. This is clear from the Quran itself. A person cannot force a person to believe, and in the same way, a person cannot force another person to disbelieve. God is responsible for that.
 
2) If a person is raised to Muslim parents, we assume the person is a Muslim. However, did this person reach the age of puberty yet to make such a decision on his or her own? (Of course all children are Muslim, but this is not what I'm talking about.) If the person did reach puberty, and did not make a public declaration of being a Muslim, is he a Muslim based solely on the background of his parents? I think that someone born into the religion has a lot more leniency to choose their religion than someone who actually professes belief and commitment to Islam as reverts do.
 
My son is being raised as a Muslim. He's still young now, but when he gets older, he will learn everything we can teach him about Islam. My wife and I intend to sign him up for nothing but Islamic programs insha'Allah, but does that make him a Muslim? Right now yes, he's a Muslim. But when he reaches the age to make his own decisions, and if he turns to me and says "I feel that your religion is false, I'd rather be a witch", I cannot consider him an apostate because he was never a self-professed Muslim to start with.
 
But this discussion is very deep and should be addressed by scholars more, I'm just giving my own opinion that the notion of forcing children to be Muslims simply because they were born to Muslim families goes against the Quran itself, regardless of what traditions it might agree with.
What if in a discussion between you and your then mature son he declares that Islam is going to be his religion until he dies and he is not going to change it no matter what and etc..??
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Seeking
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Religion: Unknown(Unknown)
Posts: 286
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Seeking Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by AdhamS

Originally posted by Francophile

I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it,
 
Why, yes, this is the usual reason one wants to change one's faith. But why 'just because'? Should they remain in a faith with which they don't agree?
 
A muslim who wants to change his religion can if he want to, as long as he is not going to make it public.
 
I strongly disagree with this concept:  that a person must hide their religion.
How do you define "make it public"?
 
Originally posted by AdhamS

 
What if in a discussion between you and your then mature son he declares that Islam is going to be his religion until he dies and he is not going to change it no matter what and etc..??
 
What do you think, AdhamS, if that was your child?  If your child changed their religion and "made it public"?
 
Originally posted by talib84

Originally posted by Francophile

I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it,
 
Why, yes, this is the usual reason one wants to change one's faith. But why 'just because'? Should they remain in a faith with which they don't agree?
 
I know a couple of people who converted to Judaism who have absolutely no belief in it but have converted for other, secular reasons.
 
I'm sure you agree that people of all religions convert for these types of reasons, and that general conclusions about one group of people cannot be drawn from the actions you have observed.
 
 
 
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
talib84  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 3984
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by AdhamS

Originally posted by talib84

Originally posted by AdhamS

Originally posted by Nura

And my point remains the same: since there is no compulsion in religion, or into religion, or into the deen, the law of apostasy should maybe be enforced on those who converted out of free will, like me or Talib, but not on those who are born into Muslim families. Otherwise where is the "no compulsion"?
 
I would go further anyway, and say that such a law made sense at the beginning of the Muslim Ummah, when it was threatened by many enemies and most of all Beduin Arabs, who would convert only for convenience and then leave Islam as it was nothing.
Look at Surah Al Hujurat:
 
The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
 
The Beduins used to "submit" without true faith. Their continuos change of sides put the Muslims in great trouble, that's why it had to be stopped with a threaten.
Nowadays, people like the Afghan Aburrahman, who left Islam for Catholicism, are no threat for our Ummah. Let him be a Catholic is he wishes, his Muslim wife has the right to a divorce and his family can obstracize him if they wish and keep relationship with him if they wish. It's not matter for the Islamic state, in my opinion.
Ukhti Nura (you know the meaning of ukhti right? By the way if you dont mind, I want to know more about your experience living in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate, arnt you married to a muslim Saudi? Anyway sister if you dont want to answer then I understand.
 
Back to the subject, I believe that they are more dangerous to the Ummah than they were in the past. A good example would be the son of a Hamas' leader who became a spy for Israel. People who support him would say he was spying on a "terrorist organization" (note: I dont agree with alot of Hamas methods but I still see them as a freedom fighter organization). First of all he is an ARAB which gives him a huge advantage over other Israeli spies, he could have been sent to other arab countries as well. In a future war between the arabs and Israel who do you think he will stand with? The same thing with that Magdy dude who SOMEHOW became a vicious attacker on anything that has an Islamic scent!
 
   I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it, but this will encourage the people with already weak faith to do so as well, its like encouraging people to desert and we all know the punishment of deserters. Although this is harsh but sister, alot of youth this days being one of them doesnt know a thing about their religion except what they were taught and many of them were not even taught anything. They can be tempted to leave their religion which they already know almost nothing about because Person X is now having a happy life somewhere in America with a bottle of Red wine 1875 laying on the beach with his girlfriend.
 
      You should know that we muslims now dont you see you as an Italian, but a muslim. Unfortunately in the real world its not like that due to nationalism brought in by the west during the colonization period and etc and during the fall down of the Islamic empire, a good example would be al andalus.
 
In other words things SHOULD and enshallah one day will become like this:
 
name: Nura Nationality: Muslim  Gender: Female
 
 
And we all know whats the punishment for someone who betrays his nationality right?
 
 
 
There are at least two things we're overlooking:
 
1) Only God has the power to guide or mislead. This is clear from the Quran itself. A person cannot force a person to believe, and in the same way, a person cannot force another person to disbelieve. God is responsible for that.
 
2) If a person is raised to Muslim parents, we assume the person is a Muslim. However, did this person reach the age of puberty yet to make such a decision on his or her own? (Of course all children are Muslim, but this is not what I'm talking about.) If the person did reach puberty, and did not make a public declaration of being a Muslim, is he a Muslim based solely on the background of his parents? I think that someone born into the religion has a lot more leniency to choose their religion than someone who actually professes belief and commitment to Islam as reverts do.
 
My son is being raised as a Muslim. He's still young now, but when he gets older, he will learn everything we can teach him about Islam. My wife and I intend to sign him up for nothing but Islamic programs insha'Allah, but does that make him a Muslim? Right now yes, he's a Muslim. But when he reaches the age to make his own decisions, and if he turns to me and says "I feel that your religion is false, I'd rather be a witch", I cannot consider him an apostate because he was never a self-professed Muslim to start with.
 
But this discussion is very deep and should be addressed by scholars more, I'm just giving my own opinion that the notion of forcing children to be Muslims simply because they were born to Muslim families goes against the Quran itself, regardless of what traditions it might agree with.
What if in a discussion between you and your then mature son he declares that Islam is going to be his religion until he dies and he is not going to change it no matter what and etc..??
THen I count him as a Muslim.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
talib84  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 3984
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote talib84 Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Seeking
Originally posted by talib84

Originally posted by Francophile

I understand that there are people that want to change their faith just because they dont agree with it,
 
Why, yes, this is the usual reason one wants to change one's faith. But why 'just because'? Should they remain in a faith with which they don't agree?
 
I know a couple of people who converted to Judaism who have absolutely no belief in it but have converted for other, secular reasons.
 
I'm sure you agree that people of all religions convert for these types of reasons, and that general conclusions about one group of people cannot be drawn from the actions you have observed.
 
 
 
[/QUOTE


 
Yes I agree. You do realize that I did not make any "general conclusions", right?
 
Yes I agree. You do realize that I did not make any "general conclusions", right?


Edited by talib84 - 16 December 2011 at 1:18pm
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Seeking
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Religion: Unknown(Unknown)
Posts: 286
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Seeking Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2011 at 1:45pm
 
 Only God has the power to guide or mislead. This is clear from the Quran itself. A person cannot force a person to believe, and in the same way, a person cannot force another person to disbelieve. God is responsible for that.
 
I am still torn on the concept of God misleading.  I think I understand and appreciate the concept in principle.  But then....
 
Now is the question as to how Allah misguides? This is plainly told in the Quran.
"If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge!" (Quran 4:115)
So Allah misguides the evil doers and those who reject the guidance brought by the Messenger by letting him follow the path they choose.
 
This is The Book, wherein there is no doubt, a guidance for the God-fearing who believe in the unseen. (Sūrat al-Baqarah, 2:23)
 
To me, those say that if you don't follow Mohammad, then God will misguide you.  There is no cushion for sincere people with an open heart who are honestly trying to discern the truth, as some posters were trying to say. 
 
 
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.