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iec786  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2012 at 5:40pm
Douay-Rheims Bible
And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


I do not think he wanted to die.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2012 at 5:48pm
 
sounded like he was begging for his life if you ask me, perhaps not so sure what would happen in the hereafter? hardly the words of a prophet, much less those of the son of god or the god himself.
 
just sounded too frightened to die. later in history there were actually christians who showed more brave character and courage and willingness to self-sacrifice than he does based on the Bible.
 
Cant lie, it does rouse my suspicions.
 
Iec, good man! These are verses they undoubtedly wish we never see. Nevertheless, the Christian god (if all the christian's claims are true) seems more cowardly than anything. I doubt these records are accurate.


Edited by Magister - 20 May 2012 at 5:50pm
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2012 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Seeking

Originally posted by ishammad

 
 
Can you imagine that God who want to teach a basic and essential belief and about which He will question many many millions of people, would leave it to two or even more sentences with debatable meaning?
Do you think God is afraid of some creatures to say plainly who He is? 
 
 


 
I enjoy reading these discussions in some respects, but I also think they are a waste of time to some degree.  I say that because people are going to believe what they are going to believe.  For example, you seem to require explicit language, yet when given it elsewhere you ignore it.

Jesus clearly discusses his death and resurrection multiple times, even predicts it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_predicts_his_death
Those events could be called the focal point of Christian scipture, yet many people deny they happened.  So I don't see the value in asking for specific language on one aspect but ignoring it in another.

 
Death and resurrection is explicit language?
Whose death? God?
We are all going to die and be resurrected by the way, I swear by God, The Living who does not die.
 
and your are speaking about waste of time?
 
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 9:05am
Originally posted by iec786

Douay-Rheims Bible
And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


I do not think he wanted to die.


 
 The thing i don't get is... On the one hand you say that in key verses the NT has been corrupted at at the stroke of a pen so to speak,  passages which were changed in order to suit a desired portrayal of Jesus by certain powers.. as yet un-named by you , and with no timeline...
  Yet when the above pasage is quoted... which i do not deny can seem to counter that portrayal. Why on earth did they leave it in...?  Don't you think the powers that be would not have omitted such a  problematic verse if indeed corruption was possible ?

As for the passage...It proves Jesus dual nature of being fully Human though fully Divine how else could it be said He experienced our suffering and temptation and be regarded as "a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech" Heb 5:6... He came into the world for that very purpose, to die for our sins... But that didn't mean to say his human nature desired what lay ahead.


"Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession. [15] For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin." Heb 4:14.


Edited by Damo808 - 21 May 2012 at 9:39am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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linus
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote linus Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 10:39am
Originally posted by iec786

Douay-Rheims Bible
And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


I do not think he wanted to die.


It has already been explained that Jesus had both a fully human nature as well as a fully divine nature.

Originally posted by Magister

 
Iec, good man! These are verses they undoubtedly wish we never see.


I wish you to see all of the verses.  This is a very inspirational verse and one of my favorites.  Personally, it gets me through tough times.
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iec786  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 12:13pm
he fell upon his face, praying,That is like the Muslim is sujood.Mashallah.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 12:47pm
If i prostrate myself to worship... does that make me a Muslim ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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iec786  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Damo808

If i prostrate myself to worship... does that make me a Muslim ?



No i did not say if you prostrate you are a Muslim,but yes you are one step closer
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Seeking
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Seeking Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by ishammad


Originally posted by Seeking


Originally posted by ishammad

 
 
Can you imagine that God who want to teach a basic and essential belief and about which He will question many many millions of people, would leave it to two or even more sentences with debatable meaning?
Do you think God is afraid of some creatures to say plainly who He is? 
 
<span style="display: inline;"><span><span sn="3056"></span></span></span> 



 I enjoy reading these discussions in some respects, but I also think they are a waste of time to some degree.  I say that because people are going to believe what they are going to believe.  For example, you seem to require explicit language, yet when given it elsewhere you ignore it.Jesus clearly discusses his death and resurrection multiple times, even predicts it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_predicts_his_death

Those events could be called the focal point of Christian scipture, yet many people deny they happened.  So I don't see the value in asking for specific language on one aspect but ignoring it in another.

 
Death and resurrection is explicit language?
Whose death? God?
We are all going to die and be resurrected by the way, I swear by God, The Living who does not die.
 
and your are speaking about waste of time?
 


Yes, the linked information is extremely explicit. I don't think it could be more explicit, in fact. I think you recognize it as well, and chose to be intentionally obtuse to deflect it.

What is not clear about these?

"Jesus will be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

"Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

"They will kill him, and after three dayshe will rise. But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it."

Maybe you are like those early followers.

But my point is that asking rhetorically "where does it say that in the Bible?" is a phony argument. In addition to the above, there are lengthy, multiple descriptions of the crucifixion and resurrection. But Muslims gloss over that. So there is no point in asking for proof, when there is absolutely none that they will accept. It's disingenious. Like I said, some people (maybe you) are going to believe what they want to believe, regardless if there is "proof" or not.

I don't care what people believe. But they should at least be honest with themselves when being critical of others' religion or lack of religion.


Edited by Seeking - 21 May 2012 at 6:11pm
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 8:34pm
maybe they are honest and that it is you who is blinded to believe a specific way due to culture, upbringing, choice, or whatnot.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 8:41pm
That is also one of the positions Jews use (sans head banging) and they were around a long time before Islam and Muslims.  Musta copied it from them. 

Originally posted by iec786

he fell upon his face, praying,That is like the Muslim is sujood.Mashallah.
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Seeking
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Seeking Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2012 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Magister

maybe they are honest and that it is you who is blinded to believe a specific way due to culture, upbringing, choice, or whatnot.


That is entirely possible. I could be totally wrong.

Or those holding a different opinion could be wrong.

I think if people everywhere approached these subjects with the possibility in mind that they could be wrong, there would be greater tolerance and understanding. But if a person comes in with the attitude that there is no way they could be wrong -- that they have ALL the answers -- then they are in trouble. At least from what I have observed. So I try not to do that. Key word: try.

But all this doesn't address if those scrptures are explicit or not. They seem to be to me. So I asked why rhetorically demand clear information if is not going to be accepted anyway? People are going to believe what they want to believe.


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iec786  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 01 June 2012 at 1:39am
Originally posted by Corinna


That is also one of the positions Jews use (sans head banging) and they were around a long time before Islam and Muslims.  Musta copied it from them. 
Originally posted by iec786

he fell upon his face, praying,That is like the Muslim is sujood.Mashallah.





So you think Jesus and the Muslims bang their head on the ground????
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