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InterReligious Dialogue
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 7:28am
The history has been documented extensively. Thousands of reports,

The earliest "documented reports" date to about 250 years after Muhammad died.

They attempt to discern truth from fiction through a reconstructive framework.

That, my dear, is called hearsay, it does not have the powe to convince in the same manner a 1600 year old inscription on a masjid wall might.

Would you not agree?
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 7:37am
You asked me aviatrix what my interest in this is.

It's curiosity plain and simple.

I don't believe in the divine origins of the Quran, you are right.

I find Islamic history fascinating because it's had a huge impact on us, and yet we know so very little about it's origins.

I think you will find that more western scholars will eschew the classical history in time.

I am only saying this because the preponderance of evidence seems to suggest a hybrid history with some truth from the classical sources, but a revision of that history using linguistics and archeology.

We are just getting started with Islam, and we have many miles to go before we sleep, miles to go before we sleep.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 7:46am
Anyway I have said my piece, I am not going to say more except to answer specific questions.
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Franco  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Franco Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 9:58am

Two questions for you, it is also about common sense! Unless you want to continue believing there is no God! Then it will not be anymore about common sense but!!!

I have never discussed my beliefs on this forum, but as an agnostic, I am by no means sure that the gods of any culture, past or present, exist or have existed.
 
I am open to the idea that a being or beings much superior to what people currently worship may exist in some form, but apparently human moral codes are not of interest.
 
The wars and killing that have gone on in the past and continue this very day lead me to doubt the existence of any deity who gives a hoot about humans.
 
Perhaps some of the gods are merely  divine children, laughing happily as we slaughter each other on their behalfs.
 
There is, however, no more proof of  my ideas than there are of yours.
 

If the Quran is corrupted why would be today only one version of Quran unlike all other scriptures on earth?

 

Have you read 1984 by George Orwell? You might want to study the theory of the 'memory hole'.

 
And why would even non Muslim scholars testify that that the Quran which we have today is the same as that compiled by the disciples of the prophet pbuh
 
Why indeed, since they can't possibly know if it's true. Money and death threats come to mind. Are there no scholars who dispute this?
 
You may be right that the Quran has come without deviation from Allah to Mohammed to Choudary, but you can't prove it.
 
Therefore you must admit that it is a fit topic for examination.
 
 
Now a question for you. How was the order of the verses of the Quran decided? What was the rationale for that order?
 
 
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Aviatrix



The knowledge is a reference to the Mosaic Law, which they received in those years in the desert, and knowledge from the prophets which they had among them. Though the Law and the prophets, they had things explained to them--what's right and wrong.  Correction.  "They" had law, Abrahamic law, before Mosaic law.  Mosaic law codified and clarified G-d's laws already in existence.

But still they separated into sects among themselves. That's one meaning of "they differed." But also that they disagreed with each other, with their prophets, with the laws. And it could mean more things than that too, I'm not sure of the tafseer of this ayah.  What sects would that be, Aviatrix? 

But it's a long way from unintelligible, isn't it?
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 10:36am
I don't know who asked this question but I heartily disagree:   "If the Quran is corrupted why would be today only one version of Quran unlike all other scriptures on earth?"

Tanakh/Torah are not corrupted from the one version Original.  If you mean translations are misleading and/or wrong, the problem lies with the translators/translations or the languages into which it is translated .. not the Original [uncorrupted] Scriptures.  That is quite different from an Original being corrupted or 'more than one version'.   Corrupted suggests nefarious acts.  

An aside to misleading translations, some ancient languages, particularly Semitic languages, do not translate well into the more modern or different culture languages. 

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sereihan  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sereihan Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 10:40am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Perhaps this not being communicated correctly.

I am not commenting on the Quran, it's literary style or unintelligibility.

I am simply stating that Islamic history as postulated by the orthodoxy is not verifiable.

The Quran may be a unique wonderful book. But that is of little concern to me.

The issue to me is simple.

It's the issue that Muslims make central to their assertion of the validity of their beliefs.

That it's perfectly preserved.

In reality Islamic texts themselves refute this assertion.

Moreover Islamic texts openly claim that the history is lost and that they needed a logical framework to decide truth from falsehood.

I must ask Muslims, given the sheer weight of evidence against an accurate transmission of the Hadith and Quran, why do you believe it?
we believe it at least because the Christian scholars testify that there is no divegent texts for the Quran! What more than this you need? it is your scholars testify for it
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Franco  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Franco Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:04am
 the Christian scholars testify that there is no divegent texts for the Quran!
 
Your English is exceptionally good, but I would suggest that the statement above is flawed.
 
You must qualify it by saying SOME Christian scholars testify, which indicates that some do not, which makes your statement true.
 
As for the term "Christian scholars", I'm not sure what that means. I would be more convinced if you could say that (some) linguists or historians testify....
 
Just who are these Christian scholars, by the way? Are there any Christian scholars who disagree with them?
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:04am
He means western
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:06am
It's well known that no divergent texts exist today, but that isn't what we are discussing so I am not sure what he is trying to say.

It's like me saying there are no divergent readings of Paul's letters.

It's a meaningless statement.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:08am
There are also no divergent readings of the Vedas, the diamond sutra and guru Granth sahib, so what that means to anyone is beyond me.
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sereihan  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sereihan Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Corinna

I don't know who asked this question but I heartily disagree:   "If the Quran is corrupted why would be today only one version of Quran unlike all other scriptures on earth?"

Tanakh/Torah are not corrupted from the one version Original.  If you mean translations are misleading and/or wrong, the problem lies with the translators/translations or the languages into which it is translated .. not the Original [uncorrupted] Scriptures.  That is quite different from an Original being corrupted or 'more than one version'.   Corrupted suggests nefarious acts.  

An aside to misleading translations, some ancient languages, particularly Semitic languages, do not translate well into the more modern or different culture languages. 

If the torah is not corrupted can you explain this word for word Plagiarism?

<< Isaiah 37 >>

New International Version 1984

 1When King Hezekiah heard this, he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and went into the temple of the Lord. 2He sent Eliakim the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary, and the leading priests, all wearing sackcloth, to the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz. 3They told him, “This is what Hezekiah says: This day is a day of distress and rebuke and disgrace, as when children come to the point of birth and there is no strength to deliver them. 4It may be that the Lord your God will hear the words of the field commander, whom his master, the king of Assyria, has sent to ridicule the living God, and that he will rebuke him for the words the Lord your God has heard. Therefore pray for the remnant that still survives.”

5When King Hezekiah’s officials came to Isaiah, 6Isaiah said to them, “Tell your master, ‘This is what the Lord says: Do not be afraid of what you have heard—those words with which the underlings of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. 7Listen! I am going to put a spirit in him so that when he hears a certain report, he will return to his own country, and there I will have him cut down with the sword.’”

<< 2 Kings 19 >>

New International Version 1984

1When King Hezekiah heard this, he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and went into the temple of the Lord. 2He sent Eliakim the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary and the leading priests, all wearing sackcloth, to the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz. 3They told him, “This is what Hezekiah says: This day is a day of distress and rebuke and disgrace, as when children come to the point of birth and there is no strength to deliver them. 4It may be that the Lord your God will hear all the words of the field commander, whom his master, the king of Assyria, has sent to ridicule the living God, and that he will rebuke him for the words the Lord your God has heard. Therefore pray for the remnant that still survives.”

5When King Hezekiah’s officials came to Isaiah, 6Isaiah said to them, “Tell your master, ‘This is what the Lord says: Do not be afraid of what you have heard—those words with which the underlings of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. 7Listen! I am going to put such a spirit in him that when he hears a certain report, he will return to his own country, and there I will have him cut down with the sword.’”

Deedat tricking a Christian priest here about this plagiarism,:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls-nhzCNPTc&feature=related

 

 

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sereihan  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sereihan Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Franco

 the Christian scholars testify that there is no divegent texts for the Quran!
 
Your English is exceptionally good, but I would suggest that the statement above is flawed.
 
You must qualify it by saying SOME Christian scholars testify, which indicates that some do not, which makes your statement true.
 
As for the term "Christian scholars", I'm not sure what that means. I would be more convinced if you could say that (some) linguists or historians testify....
 
Just who are these Christian scholars, by the way? Are there any Christian scholars who disagree with them?
no i should say the Christian scholars not some! because of their agreement on this issue!
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sereihan  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sereihan Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:22am
Originally posted by The_Rock

There are also no divergent readings of the Vedas, the diamond sutra and guru Granth sahib, so what that means to anyone is beyond me.
it looks like all scriptures have no divergent texts except the bible!!!
give us a reference for your claim! we prefer a known encyclopedia! please
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