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InterReligious Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Allegations against preservation of the Quran! Post Reply Post New Topic
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:32am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Granth_Sahib

Max Arthur Macauliffe writes about the authenticity of the scriptures:
The Sikh religion differs as regards the authenticity of its dogmas from most other theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known, have not left a line of their own composition and we only know what they taught through tradition or second-hand information. If Pythagoras wrote of his tenets, his writings have not descended to us. We know the teachings of Socrates only through the writings of Plato and Xenophon. Buddha has left no written memorial of his teaching. Kungfu-tze, known to Europeans as Confucius, left no documents in which he detailed the principles of his moral and social system. The founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Muhammad did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or compiled by his adherents and followers. But the compositions of Sikh Gurus are preserved and we know at first hand what they taught.
Pearl Buck gives the following comment on receiving the First English translation of the Guru Granth Sahib:
I have studied the scriptures of the great religions, but I do not find elsewhere the same power of appeal to the heart and mind as I find here in these volumes. They are compact in spite of their length, and are a revelation of the vast reach of the human heart, varying from the most noble concept of God, to the recognition and indeed the insistence upon the practical needs of the human body. There is something strangely modern about these scriptures and this puzzles me until I learned that they are in fact comparatively modern, compiled as late as the 16th century, when explorers were beginning to discover that the globe upon which we all live is a single entity divided only by arbitrary lines of our own making. Perhaps this sense of unity is the source of power I find in these volumes. They speak to a person of any religion or of none. They speak for the human heart and the searching mind.[27]

Edited by The_Rock - 04 August 2012 at 11:37am
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 11:35am
On the other hand we know that the text of the Quran was in fluctuation in the early period.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by sereihan

If the torah is not corrupted can you explain this word for word Plagiarism?

<< Isaiah 37 >>  How is it corrupted and what is the plagiarism?


<< 2 Kings 19 >>  How is it corrupted and what is the plagiarism?

Deedat tricking a Christian priest here about this plagiarism,:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls-nhzCNPTc&feature=related



I do not care to waste my time on a video of 2 foreign to the scripture religious people discussing Jewish scripture written in Hebrew that neither of them understands so they use their own meanings and interpretations.  Find a video of two Jews discussing this same topic and you might learn something about Jewish Scripture. 

You so realize the battle for Jerusalem has started and Isaiah is in the midst of prophecy, do you not? 

Sereihan, were you Christian at one time?  Why do you rely so heavily on Christian interpretations if you are Muslim?   I'm just curious.  Of course you don't have to answer if you would rather not.  I try to understand from what direction you come with your posts. 
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

The history has been documented extensively. Thousands of reports,

The earliest "documented reports" date to about 250 years after Muhammad died.

They attempt to discern truth from fiction through a reconstructive framework.

That, my dear, is called hearsay, it does not have the powe to convince in the same manner a 1600 year old inscription on a masjid wall might.

Would you not agree?
 
LOL I can tell you haven't read the writings on the Dome of the Rock
 
Some historian!


Edited by Magister - 04 August 2012 at 3:20pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Corinna

I don't know who asked this question but I heartily disagree:   "If the Quran is corrupted why would be today only one version of Quran unlike all other scriptures on earth?"

Tanakh/Torah are not corrupted from the one version Original.  If you mean translations are misleading and/or wrong, the problem lies with the translators/translations or the languages into which it is translated .. not the Original [uncorrupted] Scriptures.  That is quite different from an Original being corrupted or 'more than one version'.   Corrupted suggests nefarious acts.  

An aside to misleading translations, some ancient languages, particularly Semitic languages, do not translate well into the more modern or different culture languages. 

 
Corinna, are you making the claim that the Tanakh today is the same as it was when it was written down by its original authors? How do you know this?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Magister

 
Corinna, are you making the claim that the Tanakh today is the same as it was when it was written down by its original authors? How do you know this?


Same way you know Quran isn't corrupted. 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Franco Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 3:59pm
Magister, I think you should stop lol-ing at people for what they know or you think they don't know.
 
Discussion is discussion.
Dear God,

Thank you for keeping me safe from your followers.

(Serge Storms via Tim Dorsey
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 5:24pm

Franco you have become the etiquette policeman now? What did you say when certain individuals said that they want to restrict Muslims from entering into their country? And my lol-ing is what you point to? Kinda obvious, no?



Edited by Magister - 04 August 2012 at 5:32pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Corinna

Originally posted by Magister

 
Corinna, are you making the claim that the Tanakh today is the same as it was when it was written down by its original authors? How do you know this?


Same way you know Quran isn't corrupted. 
 
Good attempt at a dodge, but let's pretend I don't believe the Quran is uncorrupted. Pretend I'm an agnostic like yourself. Now explain to me how you know the Tanakh isn't corrupted?


Edited by Magister - 04 August 2012 at 5:26pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 5:50pm
Even Jews believe that ezra reconstructed the torah.

It's origins definitely come from at least 2 sources the yahwist and elohist.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 5:53pm
Both the torah and quran gave debatable origins and even more the gospels.

which leads me to my original point the text is irrelevant only its understanding is important.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by Magister


Same way you know Quran isn't corrupted. 
 
Good attempt at a dodge, but let's pretend I don't believe the Quran is uncorrupted. Pretend I'm an agnostic like yourself. Now explain to me how you know the Tanakh isn't corrupted?
[/QUOTE]

I'm not dodging anything, Magister.   Don't get your panties in a wad here.  I gave you the purist's answer - words straight from G-d.  It's a great idea yet people tend to forget or overlook that G-d's word came through men, man, woman, women, Nature, even mammals and animals, I suppose, so it can't really be the ultimate perfect script .. and I say that about any tome of which that claim is made.  My contention, however, is that the Original wasn't corrupted.  Big difference. 

That Ezra "reconstructed" Torah is still a subject for debate.  Better to let 3 Jews argue that point so you can have 5 answers but they will all be Jewish answers about Jews and Jewish works .. not with a Christian bent, a Muslim bent, an agnostic, atheist, Hindu, etc., if you get the idea. 
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sereihan  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sereihan Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 10:05pm

Are truly looking for a proof!? Can you tell me what kind of proof satisfies you? Then I will tell you about the order of verses of the Quran!

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sereihan  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sereihan Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 10:08pm
if the text is wrong! then what correct understanding you can get from it!!?
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