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botak
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote botak Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2013 at 5:07am
Originally posted by Damo808

 But again.... the fact remains... Of all the all male RCC clergy, the vast majority of priests are heterosexual, a tiny fractional minority of them are homosexual. They all come into contact with children - girls and boys, yet of those tragic children who go on to be abused, we find that it is the minority of homosexual priests who perpetrate the vast majority of abuse perpetrated against male children and adolecents.  Now i'm only stating facts here, I've drawn NO conclusions from those facts .


If most molestations are carried out by homosexual priests, could you not also argue that Roman Catholic priesthood is having a negative effect on homosexuals (who molest children in much lower percentages in the general population)?

Edited by botak - 25 June 2013 at 5:10am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2013 at 1:23pm
Damo, you don't know a) how many priests are truly homosexual (you are assuming the vast majority of those who did not molest anyone or who did not get CAUGHT molesting anyone are straight),

-Magister


 I would concur with that Magister..... if the ratio between hetero and homosexual offences were not sooo heavily weighted on the side of the latter, I mean, were talking around 9/10 cases of abuse occurring from the minority.

As for how many priests are homosexual your right i have no idea.
 But the abuse is almost always targeted at boys rather than girls..  Are you saying that priests have this same 9/10 ratio of access to boys over girls ? I dis-agree.

 

b) how many priests who engaged in homosexual behavior with little children would otherwise engage in heterosexual behavior had they not been strictly following a certain sexual code,

Which brings me back to that same point again with you.  Abstinence  being that code you mean has been proven on here NOT to be a driver for sexual abuse be that hetero or homosexual abuse.

 c) that the homosexuals were weeded out because they ended up molesting kids.

 Magister... they were 'weeded out' because the law caught up with their crimes... So girls don't report such crimes in their adulthood ?


The evidence is too reliant on the setting and context.

The setting..and the context is the same globally Magister..

 I don't set it.



 You say in your post that boys and girls are both equally exposed to priests, but in my own experience, girls were around priests normally in the presence of other adults like nuns, teachers, community members, etc. Boys, on the other hand, had far more alone time with priests than girls could ever have. It could be unique to my experience, but if it isn't and this is the case throughout the country and world, then the priests seem to be showing the same reaction to their deprived state of sex as an inmate would who has been in prison for years.


 Lets assume you are right..that priests are around boys more than girls....
  But to a ratio of 1 girl to every 9 boys... ???? That's absurd, if a pedophile wants to get their hands on a child, they will utilize their position to procure.  Its quite simple. Priests don't just stick to reading from the pulpit. many of them engage in children's prayer groups, school choirs, ... just many of the avenues a predator could and would put themselves.


We can't even say the rest of the clergy is heterosexual, we are assuming that because they didn't touch little boys.

 The Williams Institute at the UCLA School of Law, a sexual orientation law and public policy think tank, estimates that 9 million (about 3.8%) of Americans identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender (2011). The institute also found that bisexuals make up 1.8% of the population, while 1.7% are gay or lesbian. Transgender adults make up 0.3% of the population.

Taking in mind that 1.7% stat,  which solely makes up the gay and lesbian population of America and lets say we divide it by two that would be 0.85% being gay men.

You then tell me why this percentage should be any different in the RCC than the general American public ( especially given the obvious stance the RCC has on the position of homosexuality within its ranks..)




 Maybe they have more control over their desires. Maybe they fantasize about the same thing others are acting out before they sleep. Maybe they've done things in a way more subtle than the ones who got caught. But what you asked me was to elaborate, and that was that all the predators are men who can't control their sexual drives. This is the case in the Catholic church and outside it.

  Maybe maybe maybe... You can maybe all day
   But this still doesn't account for the ratio Magister.



I don't think abstinence alone causes for people to commit atrocious crimes the way the priests have done because we see that it is done by people who are not bound to any religious code of abstinence and by people who are handsome enough to get women (or men if they swing that way) easily. Of course in those cases you're going to need to examine many other factors. But again, in all those cases, homosexuality cannot be linked to all or even most of them. In the Catholic church, yes, homosexuality can be linked to majority of the child molestations, but like I said above, look at the context. While I grant you that priests have access to all sorts of kids, I'm still a firm believer that priests (as well as imams, rabbis, and other religious leaders like pastors) might be exposed to situations far more often in which boys can be easily and frequently abused as opposed to girls.

 Remain a believer... Allow me to dis-agree, for I just don't see it,  at least in the RCC.  That priests have such such a one sided contact with male children at such a ratio... Speaking as a catholic in my experience it just doesn't happen.


 And it doesn't take long before these people start developing a taste for what's available to them. Reminds me of how people switch races -- there's a saying in the US, once you go black, you don't go back. It's more comical than serious, but shows that once you've been exposed to something that satisfied your desires, you develop a taste for something you might not have had a taste for before.


 I'm not even going to go there with that rubbish..
Some people are attracted to different races, nothing wrong with that. My wife is Chinese.. Its not as though they get into a sexual situation with someone from a different race with expectations of it being a disaster, but being pleasantly surprised...



But then again, I'm also not one to believe in sexual orientation being hardwired at birth; I think that even if there are biological tendencies, environment and psychology win out. Therefore I think that homosexuality is dependent on a wide-range of factors, and in this case, availability and deprivation (consider long-term prisoners and you have a clue of what I'm associating their behavior with). Imams, rabbis, pastors, etc. all do drastic things as well because of deprivation. Being locked to one wife, abstaining from pornography, perverse sexual relations with the wife, being exposed to tons of beautiful women they can never, ever touch or even fantasize about guilt-free, etc.

This temptation is upon everyone who is simply married Magister... They needn't belong to a religious order.


 are all motive enough to make the weaker ones likely to engage in perverse sexual behaviors from molesting kids, to raping older females, to meeting with prostitutes, you name it. If not those, then they come home and beat their wives or have drug issues. Some people are less mentally able to stay strong with their religious obligations, and I know it's not just the Catholics.

 Which still doesn't answer why there is still ONLY a 1 in 10 chance of
a girl being abused by a member of the priesthood of those who are predators.


Edited by Damo808 - 25 June 2013 at 1:52pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2013 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 But again.... the fact remains... Of all the all male RCC clergy, the vast majority of priests are heterosexual, a tiny fractional minority of them are homosexual. They all come into contact with children - girls and boys, yet of those tragic children who go on to be abused, we find that it is the minority of homosexual priests who perpetrate the vast majority of abuse perpetrated against male children and adolecents.  Now i'm only stating facts here, I've drawn NO conclusions from those facts .


Originally posted by botak

If most molestations are carried out by homosexual priests, could you not also argue that Roman Catholic priesthood is having a negative effect on homosexuals (who molest children in much lower percentages in the general population)?


 Well you tell me Botak what it is about the RC priesthood which has a negative effect on homosexual priests ? Abstinence... ?  The same as what is prescribed for all priests ? As i've said to Magister, its been proven that abstinence is not a driver for sexual abuse.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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botak
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote botak Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2013 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Damo808


Originally posted by Damo808

 But again.... the fact remains... Of all the all male RCC clergy, the vast majority of priests are heterosexual, a tiny fractional minority of them are homosexual. They all come into contact with children - girls and boys, yet of those tragic children who go on to be abused, we find that it is the minority of homosexual priests who perpetrate the vast majority of abuse perpetrated against male children and adolecents.  Now i'm only stating facts here, I've drawn NO conclusions from those facts .


Originally posted by botak

If most molestations are carried out by homosexual priests, could you not also argue that Roman Catholic priesthood is having a negative effect on homosexuals (who molest children in much lower percentages in the general population)?
 Well you tell me Botak what it is about the RC priesthood which has a negative effect on homosexual priests ? Abstinence... ?  The same as what is prescribed for all priests ? As i've said to Magister, its been proven that abstinence is not a driver for sexual abuse.


I was turning your logic on its head, I don't actually believe it is true. You said homosexual priests abuse more than heterosexuals, and I pointed out that homosexual priests must therefore abuse more than homosexuals not in the priesthood to make the numbers add up.

Why then do homosexual priests abuse more commonly than non-clerical homosexuals?

Sexual abuse in the clergy is probably no higher than that in any other profession that had a similar access to and authority over children (justice system, care homes, etc.). The real scandal of sexual abuse is not that it happened, as with a large number of priests it is certain to happen given the simple maths of it. Clerics of all faiths have been involved in it. Given the rituals of Catholicism and the works of the catholic church though, catholic priests probably have more access to children than for example protestants. So there will be more cases proportionally.

The worst thing was the systemic cover ups that happened.

But back to the point, abstinence is not necessarily a driver for abuse, but then again, neither is homosexuality. Sexual abuse of males does not even mean the abuser identifies themself as homosexual. It is a mistake to equate sexuality with abuse potential.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2013 at 3:49pm
Why then do homosexual priests abuse more commonly than non-clerical homosexuals?

-Botak

 Botak... i won't pretend to have the answer for this. It could be a variable of factors for why some gay men choose the priesthood.. One possibility may be that gay men who enter the priesthood most likely have been brought up in devoutly religious families, choosing to keep their sexual orientation secret sparing what their family might perceive to be shameful. Such individuals may find themselves constantly wrestling with their inner emotions against church teachings about homosexuality denying and suppressing their sexual tendencies because they themselves believe it to be wrong in accordance to what they believe. As i said.. i'm at a loss as to the reason..

Given the rituals of Catholicism and the works of the catholic church though, catholic priests probably have more access to children than for example protestants. So there will be more cases proportionally.

Actually Protestantism with its sunday schools etc has no less access to children than Catholicsim does IMO, regardless however Catholicism has been shown to infact have a less serious a problem than Protestantism does.. Its just because the RCC is a singular global institution does it receive so much attention on the issue where-as Protestantism is divided into literally God knows how many sects therefore doesn't quite cut it for mainstream media attention. 


The worst thing was the systemic cover ups that happened.

 I agree.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2013 at 3:05pm
All of God’s creation is holy and every human being in God’s image. K’vod Habriot, the dignity of all, is a fundamental Jewish principle.  Rabbi Wolpe

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/06/28/jewish-embrace-of-lgbt-people-recognizes-the-dignity-of-all/
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2013 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Damo, you don't know a) how many priests are truly homosexual (you are assuming the vast majority of those who did not molest anyone or who did not get CAUGHT molesting anyone are straight),

-Magister


 I would concur with that Magister..... if the ratio between hetero and homosexual offences were not sooo heavily weighted on the side of the latter, I mean, were talking around 9/10 cases of abuse occurring from the minority.

As for how many priests are homosexual your right i have no idea.
 But the abuse is almost always targeted at boys rather than girls..  Are you saying that priests have this same 9/10 ratio of access to boys over girls ? I dis-agree.

 

b) how many priests who engaged in homosexual behavior with little children would otherwise engage in heterosexual behavior had they not been strictly following a certain sexual code,

Which brings me back to that same point again with you.  Abstinence  being that code you mean has been proven on here NOT to be a driver for sexual abuse be that hetero or homosexual abuse.

 c) that the homosexuals were weeded out because they ended up molesting kids.

 Magister... they were 'weeded out' because the law caught up with their crimes... So girls don't report such crimes in their adulthood ?


The evidence is too reliant on the setting and context.

The setting..and the context is the same globally Magister..

 I don't set it.



 You say in your post that boys and girls are both equally exposed to priests, but in my own experience, girls were around priests normally in the presence of other adults like nuns, teachers, community members, etc. Boys, on the other hand, had far more alone time with priests than girls could ever have. It could be unique to my experience, but if it isn't and this is the case throughout the country and world, then the priests seem to be showing the same reaction to their deprived state of sex as an inmate would who has been in prison for years.


 Lets assume you are right..that priests are around boys more than girls....
  But to a ratio of 1 girl to every 9 boys... ???? That's absurd, if a pedophile wants to get their hands on a child, they will utilize their position to procure.  Its quite simple. Priests don't just stick to reading from the pulpit. many of them engage in children's prayer groups, school choirs, ... just many of the avenues a predator could and would put themselves.


We can't even say the rest of the clergy is heterosexual, we are assuming that because they didn't touch little boys.

 The Williams Institute at the UCLA School of Law, a sexual orientation law and public policy think tank, estimates that 9 million (about 3.8%) of Americans identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender (2011). The institute also found that bisexuals make up 1.8% of the population, while 1.7% are gay or lesbian. Transgender adults make up 0.3% of the population.

Taking in mind that 1.7% stat,  which solely makes up the gay and lesbian population of America and lets say we divide it by two that would be 0.85% being gay men.

You then tell me why this percentage should be any different in the RCC than the general American public ( especially given the obvious stance the RCC has on the position of homosexuality within its ranks..)




 Maybe they have more control over their desires. Maybe they fantasize about the same thing others are acting out before they sleep. Maybe they've done things in a way more subtle than the ones who got caught. But what you asked me was to elaborate, and that was that all the predators are men who can't control their sexual drives. This is the case in the Catholic church and outside it.

  Maybe maybe maybe... You can maybe all day
   But this still doesn't account for the ratio Magister.



I don't think abstinence alone causes for people to commit atrocious crimes the way the priests have done because we see that it is done by people who are not bound to any religious code of abstinence and by people who are handsome enough to get women (or men if they swing that way) easily. Of course in those cases you're going to need to examine many other factors. But again, in all those cases, homosexuality cannot be linked to all or even most of them. In the Catholic church, yes, homosexuality can be linked to majority of the child molestations, but like I said above, look at the context. While I grant you that priests have access to all sorts of kids, I'm still a firm believer that priests (as well as imams, rabbis, and other religious leaders like pastors) might be exposed to situations far more often in which boys can be easily and frequently abused as opposed to girls.

 Remain a believer... Allow me to dis-agree, for I just don't see it,  at least in the RCC.  That priests have such such a one sided contact with male children at such a ratio... Speaking as a catholic in my experience it just doesn't happen.


 And it doesn't take long before these people start developing a taste for what's available to them. Reminds me of how people switch races -- there's a saying in the US, once you go black, you don't go back. It's more comical than serious, but shows that once you've been exposed to something that satisfied your desires, you develop a taste for something you might not have had a taste for before.


 I'm not even going to go there with that rubbish..
Some people are attracted to different races, nothing wrong with that. My wife is Chinese.. Its not as though they get into a sexual situation with someone from a different race with expectations of it being a disaster, but being pleasantly surprised...



But then again, I'm also not one to believe in sexual orientation being hardwired at birth; I think that even if there are biological tendencies, environment and psychology win out. Therefore I think that homosexuality is dependent on a wide-range of factors, and in this case, availability and deprivation (consider long-term prisoners and you have a clue of what I'm associating their behavior with). Imams, rabbis, pastors, etc. all do drastic things as well because of deprivation. Being locked to one wife, abstaining from pornography, perverse sexual relations with the wife, being exposed to tons of beautiful women they can never, ever touch or even fantasize about guilt-free, etc.

This temptation is upon everyone who is simply married Magister... They needn't belong to a religious order.


 are all motive enough to make the weaker ones likely to engage in perverse sexual behaviors from molesting kids, to raping older females, to meeting with prostitutes, you name it. If not those, then they come home and beat their wives or have drug issues. Some people are less mentally able to stay strong with their religious obligations, and I know it's not just the Catholics.

 Which still doesn't answer why there is still ONLY a 1 in 10 chance of
a girl being abused by a member of the priesthood of those who are predators.
 
Damo, I think the correlation is almost meaningless. I for one feel that homosexuality is not particularly contributive to society and it is a major sin in both our religions, but what's fair is fair. You pointed out this proportion of child molesters in the RCC being homosexual when you replied to Uuken's post asking what harm homosexuality gives to society. While you saved yourself from the accountability of proposing that homosexuality leads to child molestation, it kinda showed what path your mind was taking you. But for that to be any evidence would require that we take other things as evidence that we otherwise wouldn't. Not to mention, were the priests homosexual or were they simply engaging in homosexual acts? I know it's hard for straight guys to comprehend the difference, but there is. Predators typically fall into two categories, and especially for one of those two categories, homosexuality need not be present in the male that decides he likes to molest kids. But in this case, that group likely didn't exist as much as the latter. But to make a long story short and to avoid pointless confusion, the correlation seems to do more in the way of putting bad ideas in people's heads that could cause mischief, discrimination, distrust, etc. as opposed to offering any actual information about the causes of the perverse behaviors the priests displayed. Of course I'm not saying that's your intention, I'm only saying how it comes off.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2013 at 4:42am
Damo, I think the correlation is almost meaningless. I for one feel that homosexuality is not particularly contributive to society and it is a major sin in both our religions, but what's fair is fair. You pointed out this proportion of child molesters in the RCC being homosexual when you replied to Uuken's post asking what harm homosexuality gives to society. While you saved yourself from the accountability of proposing that homosexuality leads to child molestation, it kinda showed what path your mind was taking you.


  Magister...i'll re-state No-where in my post did i say/propose that homosexuality inevitably leads to child molestation OR to a temptation in that direction, that wasn't EVEN inferred in my post yet still your accusing my 'mind of taking me in the path'  that of  ALL homosexuals are poytential child molesters AND harbor a lust for children,  just that given the 'right' time and place it would most certainly occur. That is utter rubbish, hence and why no-one else has accused me of this but you...  Getting all sensationalist again.. a tad  
 


But for that to be any evidence would require that we take other things as evidence that we otherwise wouldn't. Not to mention, were the priests homosexual or were they simply engaging in homosexual acts? I know it's hard for straight guys to comprehend the difference, but there is. Predators typically fall into two categories, and especially for one of those two categories, homosexuality need not be present in the male that decides he likes to molest kids. But in this case, that group likely didn't exist as much as the latter. But to make a long story short and to avoid pointless confusion, the correlation seems to do more in the way of putting bad ideas in people's heads that could cause mischief, discrimination, distrust, etc. as opposed to offering any actual information about the causes of the perverse behaviors the priests displayed. Of course I'm not saying that's your intention, I'm only saying how it comes off.

 Magister, i'm not passing myself of as a psychologist, i never gave my own take on the correlation, as i don't have one. Uuken asked what evidence is available that homosexuality can corrupt society. I've shown only that homosexual mis-conduct has brought the church into the court room on about 90% of its sexual abuse trials, despite showing that clergy come into contact with female kids in their pastoral vocation at a ratio much greater than that of what the ratio of sexual abuse is of girls to that of boys... 

That still doesn't lead "my mind" as you suggest however to believe that a homosexual man will inevitably lead to abusing a child given the 'right' situation and time.



Edited by Damo808 - 29 June 2013 at 4:44am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2013 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Damo808


Magister...i'll re-state No-where in my post did i say/propose that homosexuality inevitably leads to child molestation OR to a temptation in that direction, that wasn't EVEN inferred in my post yet still your accusing my 'mind of taking me in the path'  that of  ALL homosexuals are poytential child molesters AND harbor a lust for children,  just that given the 'right' time and place it would most certainly occur. That is utter rubbish, hence and why no-one else has accused me of this but you...  Getting all sensationalist again.. a tad  


I don't see how you're going to debate on what was said; you brought up the correlation but left out something important: the factors that could contribute to the correlation. To add to this, you negated suggestions for possible factors. It doesn't take a psychic to see what you were getting at .

Originally posted by Damo808

Magister, i'm not passing myself of as a psychologist, i never gave my own take on the correlation, as i don't have one. Uuken asked what evidence is available that homosexuality can corrupt society. I've shown only that homosexual mis-conduct has brought the church into the court room on about 90% of its sexual abuse trials, despite showing that clergy come into contact with female kids in their pastoral vocation at a ratio much greater than that of what the ratio of sexual abuse is of girls to that of boys... 

That still doesn't lead "my mind" as you suggest however to believe that a homosexual man will inevitably lead to abusing a child given the 'right' situation and time.




Damo, I dont think I suggested that you think all gays are preds; if I did I'm sorry. Instead, what I took from your post was that homosexuality was a likely cause to child molestation as committed by the Catholic priests in the RCC. (You know, since 99% of the cases were done in homosexual ways as opposed to straight ways, and there's no other possible reason for that to be except that the priests were homosexuals...ahem.) I was only trying to disprove the notion that homosexuality caused it or that it played a likely cause in it. That's why I stated in one of my responses to you that predators are usually men and they hurt others despite sexual orientation...in other words, the factors most responsible must be factors that are common to ALL child predators, not just Catholic clergy, and it's NOT homosexuality, so the correlation is pretty much meaningless in trying to show homosexuality as the driving force (or "likely" driving force) behind predatory behavior which in turn harms society.

Damo, you can deny your intentions behind pointing out that connection and ruling out most other possible explanations till you're blue in the face, it doesn't take a genius to see where you were hoping to get at eventually.

Consider this conversation as an analogy:

Person A: "Show me proof that being black is inherently dangerous to society!"

Person B: "Not so fast there! In the United States, blacks make up X% of the prison population. While I'm not one to say that being Black is the cause of all this crime, it is a very interesting anomaly to see that the percentage of Blacks in prison is so high, especially since whites make up such a small fraction of a % of people in prison."

Person C: "What about other explanations for those stats like socio-economic factors? African-Americans are put at a disadvantage in the US from the get-go, there are racists who use the law against them, many can be wrongly accused, the list goes on."

Person B: "Stop saying I said that being Black is harmful to our society! [note the false defense here to draw attention away from what was really said] I never said that! I only pointed out that the overwhelming number of people in prison are black and that was in response to Person A's question on how being Black is harmful to society. Please, don't put words in my mouth."

While it's fun to write a dialogue, it would just keep going in a circle. You get the point. The connection between gays and child abuse was brought up for a reason, and it was in response to Uuken's question on how homosexuality is harmful to society. You deny you hold the position that homosexuality is what causes child molestation or that all gays are dangerous around children, but you hold up the connection as an "interesting anomaly". C'mon, Damo, you're not fooling anyone here. You said something that was easily disproven and now you're trying to wiggle your way out of it. And how convenient it was to say, "I'm only pointing out statistics, I don't believe that homosexuality plays a cause in harming society!" LOL Man up, guy. If you believe it in your heart, then go with it. Don't fold and bend because you're afraid of a little criticism.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2013 at 4:29pm
Damo, I'm busting your chops a little. I know that you don't want to get yourself into hot water and that you're only trying to point out an "anomaly", but you have a tendency to do things like this. In other posts, you blame Muslims for such and such, when confronted with evidence, you say things like, "Well, it's different there," etc. And you back out of it saying things like, "Not all Muslims" etc. I also know that you're trying to show something that might qualify as evidence that homosexuality is inherently destructive to society but not so sure on how to interpret it when drawing your conclusion, but I think it's safe to say that the "evidence" is not really much evidence at all of showing homosexuality is destructive to society. It just shows that men are willing to take drastic steps to satisfy their sexual urges and that some sick ones will even turn to preying on children and adolescents. Turn your attention to public schools from elementary through junior high and high school, you'll see that the number of heterosexual abuse cases far outweigh those of homosexual abuse cases. The common factor between the RCC and the public schools is that most of the predators are males.

This connection should open up other avenues of dialogue such as what can be done to decrease the frequency, or how sexual abuse is viewed, or how to prevent sexual abuse, etc. It's almost useless to show evidence that homosexual Catholic abuse is inherently dangerous to society because it leads to people taking that information and forming the conclusion that homosexuality is the root cause when we all know better than that. The root cause is sick men that can't control themselves (or perhaps it's a little deeper than that -- but would be a subject better suited for psychologists and psychiatrists than for laymen).

Damo, I get your point, brother, just trying to be fair, though. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. Pointing out a link between gay priests (or priests that engage in gay behavior) and harming society is like pointing out a link between straight teachers, babysitters, uncles, etc. (or men that engage in "straight" behavior) and harming society. It is all meaningless and contributes nothing except opening the door for people to have yet another (false) reason to conclude that sexual orientation alone is responsible for predatory behavior, etc. [PS: Even though YOU don't believe it yourself!]


Edited by Magister - 29 June 2013 at 4:30pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2013 at 5:08pm
The curse of Homosexuality can be best understood through the Greek legendary fable of Narcissus.

Narcissus was a youth in Greek mythology. He spurned the love of a nymph called Echo. She appealed to the goddess Nemesis for revenge. Nemesis cast an evil spell on Narcissus. He saw his own image in the water and fell in love with it. The spellbound Narcissus pined away in a hopeless love of his own image, suffered terrible frustrations, and died. By a strange resurrection he became a flower which bears the name Narcissus.

Narcissism.....became the symbol of inflated self-love, especially as expressed in a fetish of self-absorption — as in the prototype of Narcissus gazing at his own reflection in the water. Narcissism involves an inordinate self-love, self-adoration, self-admiration, self-celebration, and self-worship. Narcissism is a sickness that leads one to experience the corruption of spiritual and physical death (disease, impotence, and lack of reproduction between it's partners) as it was with Narcissus.

Roman Emperors involved themselves in such self-love, self-adoration, self-admiration, self-celebration, and self-worship....believing themselves to be God and thus rejecting the True God. They turned the Creator into the Creature (worshipping themselves as idols). Is it no wonder that the majority of the Roman Emperors (Narcissistic Dictators) were either bisexual or homosexual?

Depressive narcissism can involve low self-esteem, self-pity, and bitterness. It is essentially a wounded self-love. This trauma can be as terrible as any of the pains known to mortal flesh and can lead to the most fearsome self-obsessions (including homosexuality). Some of the most self-absorbed people one can meet are bitter and self-pitying who love their own bodies more than anyone else.

Self hatred and self-pity is not humility---it is a wounded self-esteem pacing in an endless circle of regret, resentment, and despair. Humility involves a healthy measure of self-forgetfulness. The humble see themselves clearly in their true relationship to the real world whereas the self-centered narcissist sees a delusion of self, of others, and of the world around them. Humility produces realism. Depressive narcissism creates delusion.


2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:4
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Timothy 3:1-3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

Romans 1:20-28
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Many of the obsessive hatreds of the postmodern left are derived from bitterness. Narcissistic bitterness in the search of a scapegoat breeds the paranoid conspiracy theories of ideological fanaticism. The lingering bitterness over the defeat of Al Gore in 2000 illustrates the inability of the narcissistic left to recover from a disappointment. The slander campaign against those who choose to retain God in their knowledge comes from an inextinguishable malice of those who reject God.

Narcissists do not forgive or forget----tear down a selfish man's personal idol and he is your enemy forever. The frustrated "god" of the narcissistic self cannot be satisfied or appeased.

Extreme, narcissism can collapse into solipsism — the feeling that I am the only thing which really exists and that everything else I see is somehow an extension of me, exists by my good pleasure, and FOR my pleasure. When a narcissist snubs you, he has demoted you to the status of a non-person. When a solipsist snubs you, you plainly cease to exist.




Edited by Janet Waters - 15 July 2013 at 5:46pm
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silenflute
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote silenflute Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2013 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters


Self hatred and self-pity is not humility---it is a wounded self-esteem pacing in an endless circle of regret, resentment, and despair. Humility involves a healthy measure of self-forgetfulness. The humble see themselves clearly in their true relationship to the real world whereas the self-centered narcissist sees a delusion of self, of others, and of the world around them. Humility produces realism. Depressive narcissism creates delusion.




Not sure if you are dispensing new age wisdom, or discussing Abrahamic faiths. You are touching, albeit unwittingly, on the central paradox at the core of Abrahamic Religions. Abrahamic faiths teach people to think abjectly of themselves, as miserable and guilty sinners whilst teaching them to be  self-centered and conceited, as it assures them that god cares for them individually. You can witness this in the faces of those who pray - though modestly and with humility - also happen to be busy on an errand for god.

It is the religion that make people feel like lowly sinners, encouraging low self-esteem whilst leading them to believe god cares about them, leading them to live in a constant  schizophrenic state.



Edited by silenflute - 15 July 2013 at 6:18pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2013 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by silenflute

Not sure if you are dispensing new age wisdom, or discussing Abrahamic faiths. You are touching, albeit unwittingly, on the central paradox at the core of Abrahamic Religions. Abrahamic faiths teach people to think abjectly of themselves, as miserable and guilty sinners whilst teaching them to be self-centered and conceited, as it assures them that god cares for them individually. You can witness this in the faces of those who pray - though modestly and with humility - also happen to be busy on an errand for god.

It is the religion that make people feel like lowly sinners, encouraging low self-esteem whilst leading them to believe god cares about them, leading them to live in a constant schizophrenic state.


It maybe so within some sects within Christianity because of their belief in the Original Sin Theory (which is an incorrect understanding of the Fall of Adam). But I do not have that taint ( "low self-esteem") because I do not follow the Original Sin Theory and so therefore I do not suffer from "original guilt" pangs.

However there is such a thing as "godly sorrow" whose purpose is to cause a person to turn back to God and repent for breaking God's laws. After one repents (the sin is forsaken and not repeated) and is baptized (thus forgiven by God).....that sorrow is removed and one is clear of the matter (one must continue to repent daily not repeating those offenses). God will forgive whom he will.


2 Corinthians 7:9-10
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Corinthians 7:11
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Isaiah 1:18
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Moses 6:53-62
53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.
54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.
55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.
57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time
58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.








Edited by Janet Waters - 15 July 2013 at 8:10pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2013 at 10:19am
Originally posted by silenflute



. You are touching, albeit unwittingly, on the central paradox at the core of Abrahamic Religions. Abrahamic faiths teach people to think abjectly of themselves, as miserable and guilty sinners whilst teaching them to be  self-centered and conceited, as it assures them that god cares for them individually.
[/QUOTE]

You are quite wrong, silenfluteJudaism does not from its core contain anything even touching the original sin thing or the all sinners go to hell bit .. we just do not have that sort of mind set.  Those were Christian concepts added as that religion developed. 
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