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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2015 at 10:15am

Originally posted by Waheed

You agree sometimes with what I say, and you disagree on other occasions. When "you" disagree, you post why.

Waheed, you missed my point. If I agree with part of what you say and disagree with another part, it would be irresponsible and misleading of me to say I confirm what you say. If at another time I say something contrary to what you say then I have contradicted myself.


This is a contradiction and you only highlight this when you bring forward other verses that contradict.

Originally posted by Waheed

Now, Islam teaches that God sent guidance throughout time, but sometimes that which is correct gets mixed up with that which is incorrect, but it doesn't negate what God did before.

Should we consider the Quranic the verse that says non can change the words of Allah?


The next few things need to be read with the original point in mind. You make an attempt at justifying why these things are mentioned in the Quran but I included them because you said...

Qur'an focuses, even when speaking on the prophet or to him, on the most weighty things. [/QUOTE]

...and this is simply not true. The truth is that Muhammad had a great many 'revelations' that solved his personal domestic problems. You could even say 'his Lord hastens to satisfy his desires.'

Now to address the individual points:

Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet's wives have to be role models.

Maybe we need to look at the verse again with the use of some bolding

Originally posted by Waheed

O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah , easy. And whoever of you devoutly obeys Allah and His Messenger and does righteousness - We will give her her reward twice; and We have prepared for her a noble provision. O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.

How easy would it have been for Allah to say 'O wives of Muslims...'? But he did not.


The text clearly says 'O wives of the Prophet'.

It even stresses the point to prevent misinterpretations like yours by saying 'O wives of the Prophet, YOU ARE NOT LIKE ANYONE AMONG WOMEN'.


This verse is dealing with the petty problems specifically Muhammad had with specifically his wives, and yet this petty domestic issue has made it into the eternal book of guidance for all people for all time!!!


There are hadith for exactly this kind of petty issue.

Originally posted by Waheed

The Bible has Jesus say "He who loves me will obey my teachings" [John 14:23]. It's saying the same thing as the Qur'an.

One big difference here is that Jesus was open to his Disciples comments. Sometimes they required rebuking but how else would they learn if they didn’t vocalise their opinions? Some of their greatest lessons came from them being allowed to raise their opinions.

But this is by the by the verse you brought forward is basically saying 'don’t think, just shut up and do what I say'. Very convenient for Muhammad and once again strange to find in the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times when it only really applies to a very select few people who are now 1400 years dead.

Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet was a leader, and marriage was one way of solving war issues and solving an issue when a man was killed, leaving behind widows and children. Moreover, as discussed in another thread, the Qur'an itself put a limit on the Prophet's marriages after a while.

Very convenient I must say. You have to wonder why someone might invent a religion and the obvious answer would be for personally gain. Now imagine my surprise when I read that Muhammad got revelations saying that he ALONE could have more wives than any other follow of his religion!!!


I think what you say is largely ridiculous. If a woman was widowed could a Muslim not simply support her financially until she found someone to marry? Of cause he could but then he wouldn’t get to have sex with her which is the only real difference.

Is marrying the only solution? Of cause not!


As for the limit put on Muhammad, the Quran clearly shows us the petty issues that he had to deal with resulting from having lots of wives. That clearly solved another personal problem of being harangued by women throwing themselves at him.

Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet's teachings were not just on theology, it was on manners as well.

This is a contradiction of what you said earlier that started this whole petty issue subject.

Originally posted by Waheed

Qur'an focuses, even when speaking on the prophet or to him, on the most weighty things.

Ignoring the fact this this is not a teaching from the 'prophet' but a verse from the Quran it is clearly not about weighty issues like you claimed. This is clearly Muhammad abusing his power to solve a minor annoyance.

Baring in mind that there are endless hadith that speak about petty issues right down to how many stones to wipe up with (if you know what I am referring to) it seems strange to include this in the Quran - the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times.

To add a bit of irony to all this Waheed you have Magister 'agreeing' with you while simultaneously contradicting your point about the Quran focusing on 'the most weighty issues.'

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2015 at 10:20am
...and the examples you and I brought of the petty 'revelations' are only a few of many more.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2015 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Originally posted by Waheed

You agree sometimes with what I say, and you disagree on other occasions. When "you" disagree, you post why.

Waheed, you missed my point. If I agree with part of what you say and disagree with another part, it would be irresponsible and misleading of me to say I confirm what you say. If at another time I say something contrary to what you say then I have contradicted myself.


This is a contradiction and you only highlight this when you bring forward other verses that contradict.

Originally posted by Waheed

Now, Islam teaches that God sent guidance throughout time, but sometimes that which is correct gets mixed up with that which is incorrect, but it doesn't negate what God did before.

Waheed, you missed my point. If I agree with part of what you say and disagree with another part, it would be irresponsible and misleading of me to say I confirm what you say. If at another time I say something contrary to what you say then I have contradicted myself


The next few things need to be read with the original point in mind. You make an attempt at justifying why these things are mentioned in the Quran but I included them because you said...

Qur'an focuses, even when speaking on the prophet or to him, on the most weighty things.

...and this is simply not true. The truth is that Muhammad had a great many 'revelations' that solved his personal domestic problems. You could even say 'his Lord hastens to satisfy his desires.'

Now to address the individual points:

Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet's wives have to be role models.

Maybe we need to look at the verse again with the use of some bolding

Originally posted by Waheed

O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah , easy. And whoever of you devoutly obeys Allah and His Messenger and does righteousness - We will give her her reward twice; and We have prepared for her a noble provision. O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.

How easy would it have been for Allah to say 'O wives of Muslims...'? But he did not.


The text clearly says 'O wives of the Prophet'.

It even stresses the point to prevent misinterpretations like yours by saying 'O wives of the Prophet, YOU ARE NOT LIKE ANYONE AMONG WOMEN'.


This verse is dealing with the petty problems specifically Muhammad had with specifically his wives, and yet this petty domestic issue has made it into the eternal book of guidance for all people for all time!!!


There are hadith for exactly this kind of petty issue.

Originally posted by Waheed

The Bible has Jesus say "He who loves me will obey my teachings" [John 14:23]. It's saying the same thing as the Qur'an.

One big difference here is that Jesus was open to his Disciples comments. Sometimes they required rebuking but how else would they learn if they didn’t vocalise their opinions? Some of their greatest lessons came from them being allowed to raise their opinions.

But this is by the by the verse you brought forward is basically saying 'don’t think, just shut up and do what I say'. Very convenient for Muhammad and once again strange to find in the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times when it only really applies to a very select few people who are now 1400 years dead.

Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet was a leader, and marriage was one way of solving war issues and solving an issue when a man was killed, leaving behind widows and children. Moreover, as discussed in another thread, the Qur'an itself put a limit on the Prophet's marriages after a while.

Very convenient I must say. You have to wonder why someone might invent a religion and the obvious answer would be for personally gain. Now imagine my surprise when I read that Muhammad got revelations saying that he ALONE could have more wives than any other follow of his religion!!!


I think what you say is largely ridiculous. If a woman was widowed could a Muslim not simply support her financially until she found someone to marry? Of cause he could but then he wouldn’t get to have sex with her which is the only real difference.

Is marrying the only solution? Of cause not!


As for the limit put on Muhammad, the Quran clearly shows us the petty issues that he had to deal with resulting from having lots of wives. That clearly solved another personal problem of being harangued by women throwing themselves at him.

Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet's teachings were not just on theology, it was on manners as well.

This is a contradiction of what you said earlier that started this whole petty issue subject.

Originally posted by Waheed

Qur'an focuses, even when speaking on the prophet or to him, on the most weighty things.

Ignoring the fact this this is not a teaching from the 'prophet' but a verse from the Quran it is clearly not about weighty issues like you claimed. This is clearly Muhammad abusing his power to solve a minor annoyance.

Baring in mind that there are endless hadith that speak about petty issues right down to how many stones to wipe up with (if you know what I am referring to) it seems strange to include this in the Quran - the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times.

To add a bit of irony to all this Waheed you have Magister 'agreeing' with you while simultaneously contradicting your point about the Quran focusing on 'the most weighty issues.'

[/QUOTE]
_______________________________________________________

Waheed, you missed my point. If I agree with part of what you say and disagree with another part, it would be irresponsible and misleading of me to say I confirm what you say. If at another time I say something contrary to what you say then I have contradicted myself


The confirmation is confirming what is true and correct. You are a Christian, you don't believe in God sending forth- for example, Muhammad after him, or Buddha before him. Most faiths believe as a matter of principle that God's communication only came to their own figures,but Islam says, even while acknowleging that there have been misconceptions or outright corruptions, that God sent communication other than the Qur'an and to prophets other than the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them all.

Thus, it says "This [Quran] is the scripture, without doubt, a guide for those with awareness of God, who believe in the unseen [i.e. accept that there are realities invisible to the human eye, such as angels etc], establish prayers, spend out of what God provided them [in charity], who believe in what has been sent to you [O Muhammad] and in what has been sent before you.." [Q 2:2-5]


The arabic words for the text you referenced [somehow I have erased it, sorry] is Laa Mubaddila LikalimaatiLLaah, sometimes translated as none can change the words of God. Kalimaat has the meaning of decrees or laws. It's a very deep expression, but the point is that it's talking about the laws placed by God in the universe, not as referencing some pre-Quranic texts.

If this interests you, do have a look at this brief analysis of "word" here http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com/2009/07/words-of-allah-are-inexhaustible.html




It even stresses the point to prevent misinterpretations like yours by saying 'O wives of the Prophet, YOU ARE NOT LIKE ANYONE AMONG WOMEN'.


This verse is dealing with the petty problems specifically Muhammad had with specifically his wives, and yet this petty domestic issue has made it into the eternal book of guidance for all people for all time!!!


There are hadith for exactly this kind of petty issue.


The Prophet's wives had to be role models, and yes, they did have a higher role too. I think I already mentioned in this thread that the Prophet's wives are called mothers of believers, that, historically, 'A'ishaa herself, may God be pleased with her, ended up becoming a great teacher of the Sunnah, because people came to her asking all sorts of questions.


Even 'petty issues' can be used and twisted by foes. I shared earlier the example of President Obama's family.



Now imagine my surprise when I read that Muhammad got revelations saying that he ALONE could have more wives than any other follow of his religion!!!


Muhammad the man doesn't know the future. There may be occasions when he- as a leader- would have to marry again for one reason or another, be it humanitarian or political.  Thus, ultimately a verse was revealed telling the Prophet he cannot marry any more nor divorce any of his current wives. Moreover, as the reports we have, all his wives loved him and cherished their time with him.



Baring in mind that there are endless hadith that speak about petty issues right down to how many stones to wipe up with (if you know what I am referring to) it seems strange to include this in the Quran - the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times.

To add a bit of irony to all this Waheed you have Magister 'agreeing' with you while simultaneously contradicting your point about the Quran focusing on 'the most weighty issues


There are hadiths which talk about many issues, but the hadiths are not as accessible to the average people [until relatively recently] as the Qur'an is. The Qur'an speaks on some subjects that you find 'petty' because those things are things which create conscientious human beings.

Often the Qur'an will use a rather 'petty' premise to build a solid, sophisticated argument for really important issues.

One report says that a group of Bedouins [who were usually people lacking social graces] came outside of the Prophet's house yelling "Muhammad, come out"! This incident precedes the revelation of Soorat al Hujuraat [chapter 49], which speaks powerfully on issues such as social graces, racism, faith and backbiting. Here's a summary   http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com/2013/07/towards-healthy-spiritual-life.html




Edited by waheed1 - 06 April 2015 at 10:13am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2015 at 10:32am
I'm having a bit of trouble formatting today, so here are a couple of things skipped in the previous post.


I think what you say is largely ridiculous. If a woman was widowed could a Muslim not simply support her financially until she found someone to marry? Of cause he could but then he wouldn’t get to have sex with her which is the only real difference.

Is marrying the only solution? Of cause not!


Marriage is not the only option, but your speaking from a different cultural context. Even today in the world widows, mothers whose husbands were killed in wars such as in Iraq, Yemen and Syria, are getting married, starting new lives in a family situation.




One big difference here is that Jesus was open to his Disciples comments. Sometimes they required rebuking but how else would they learn if they didn’t vocalise their opinions? Some of their greatest lessons came from them being allowed to raise their opinions.

But this is by the by the verse you brought forward is basically saying 'don’t think, just shut up and do what I say'. Very convenient for Muhammad and once again strange to find in the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times when it only really applies to a very select few people who are now 1400 years dead.


I'm afraid this particular statement shows a lack of knowledge about the Prophet Muhammad [God's peace be on him]. Let me give a couple of examples to correct your misconception.


[1] We have a report in the literature how, for example, the Prophet was taking people to a particular place for a battle, and a man asked "Messenger of God, have you been informed by God for us to be based here?" He replied 'no'. The man proceeded to tell him that this place was not good to be based in, the Prophet listened and followed his advice.


[2] Again, during the siege of Madinah, when the Muslims were surrounded, the Muslims essentially outvoted the Prophet on a particular course of action [I can't remember which one off hand].


Actually, the hadeeths themselves are full of reports that show that the Prophet was a very open sort of man, actually people could almost say anything to him without fear.



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2015 at 5:25am
And it was not [possible] for this Qur'an to be produced by other than Allah , but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture, about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
Originally posted by Waheed

The confirmation is confirming what is true and correct.

But in the absence of clarity about what is being confirmed one has to presume that all is being confirmed. If that is not the case, Allah is a terrible communicator.
The verse says:
…but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it…

It says ‘IT’! It does not say it confirms what is true and correct as you seem to think it does. It only says it is a confirmation of what was before it.
Either – this verse means what it says and it confirms what was before it.
Or – this verse means something else whereby the verse is not clear.

If you say ‘what was before’ has been corrupted then this verse is confirming the corruption since it does not specify what it confirms and makes no mention of rejecting parts.
Originally posted by Waheed

The arabic words for the text you referenced [somehow I have erased it, sorry] is Laa Mubaddila LikalimaatiLLaah, sometimes translated as none can change the words of God. Kalimaat has the meaning of decrees or laws. It's a very deep expression, but the point is that it's talking about the laws placed by God in the universe, not as referencing some pre-Quranic texts.

This is strange indeed because this is one verse used by Muslims to ‘prove’ the Quran has not been corrupted. I have never heard it translated the way you do. In addition to this, when I look it up in a number of translations, your understanding makes no sense.

And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.

And recite what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Book (the Quran) of your Lord (i.e. recite it, understand and follow its teachings and act on its orders and preach it to men). None can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him.

And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.

And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him.


And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord; none can alter (Literally: none can be an falterer) His Words; and apart from Him, you will never find any shielding.

It clearly is talking about words as we know them.
As before, if this verse does not mean what it says, then Allah is a terrible communicator.
Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet's wives had to be role models, and yes, they did have a higher role too. I think I already mentioned in this thread that the Prophet's wives are called mothers of believers, that, historically, 'A'ishaa herself, may God be pleased with her, ended up becoming a great teacher of the Sunnah, because people came to her asking all sorts of questions.

Even 'petty issues' can be used and twisted by foes. I shared earlier the example of President Obama's family.

I think we are drifting away from my point. The wives of Muhammad may well be role models. That is irrelevant. Whether petty issues can be twisted by foes is also irrelevant too.

You said the Quran, when talking to or about Muhammad, focuses on the most weighty issues… your words!

I showed with a few of a great many examples that this is clearly not true.

This verse in question is going to some length to say that it is talking specifically about Muhammad’s wives and not women in general. That much is very clear!
Originally posted by Waheed

Muhammad the man doesn't know the future. There may be occasions when he- as a leader- would have to marry again for one reason or another, be it humanitarian or political. Thus, ultimately a verse was revealed telling the Prophet he cannot marry any more nor divorce any of his current wives. Moreover, as the reports we have, all his wives loved him and cherished their time with him.

It is strange then how the verse to marry more than 4 wives is not applicable to ‘leaders’ in general but ONLY to Muhammad…the very man claiming to be getting these ‘divine revelations’

As for the reports we have of Muhammad, we need to bare a few things in mind:
1 – These reports were collected 200 after Muhammad’s death
2 – They were collected in a 99% corrupt environment
3 – There would have been every reason for the wives to make stuff up, especially how much they loved M and how much he loved them.
Originally posted by Waheed

There are hadiths which talk about many issues, but the hadiths are not as accessible to the average people [until relatively recently] as the Qur'an is. The Qur'an speaks on some subjects that you find 'petty' because those things are things which create conscientious human beings.

So you now have an enormous problem! The Quran wastes huge amounts of space on repetition, saying the same things again and again and again….but it neglects so much stuff that is important to the Muslim daily life. These details are found in the hadith when they could easily have been included in the Quran. The Quran could have been an independent book, clear, concise and all-encompassing getting rid of the need for the hadith which is shocking in it’s reliability, but it did not.

Anyway my point was that the Quran could have been reserved for the weighty issues and the hadith saved for the more mundane, daily issues like Muhammad’s personal gripes. As it is, this is not the case. The Quran is full of mindless repetition and petty issues and the relatively ‘inaccessible’ hadith contain so much of what is important to the religion.
Originally posted by Waheed

Often the Qur'an will use a rather 'petty' premise to build a solid, sophisticated argument for really important issues.

One report says that a group of Bedouins [who were usually people lacking social graces] came outside of the Prophet's house yelling "Muhammad, come out"! This incident precedes the revelation of Soorat al Hujuraat [chapter 49], which speaks powerfully on issues such as social graces, racism, faith and backbiting.

And here is another problem I have with the Quran. Muslims claim that it has existed eternally and yet such verses as the one above you mention were only revealed after an incident!!!

Exactly as if Muhammad was making it up as and when a particular situation arose.







One big difference here is that Jesus was open to his Disciples comments. Sometimes they required rebuking but how else would they learn if they didn’t vocalise their opinions? Some of their greatest lessons came from them being allowed to raise their opinions.
But this is by the by the verse you brought forward is basically saying 'don’t think, just shut up and do what I say'. Very convenient for Muhammad and once again strange to find in the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times when it only really applies to a very select few people who are now 1400 years dead.

Originally posted by Waheed

I'm afraid this particular statement shows a lack of knowledge about the Prophet Muhammad [God's peace be on him]. Let me give a couple of examples to correct your misconception.

[1] We have a report in the literature how, for example, the Prophet was taking people to a particular place for a battle, and a man asked "Messenger of God, have you been informed by God for us to be based here?" He replied 'no'. The man proceeded to tell him that this place was not good to be based in, the Prophet listened and followed his advice.

[2] Again, during the siege of Madinah, when the Muslims were surrounded, the Muslims essentially outvoted the Prophet on a particular course of action [I can't remember which one off hand].

Actually, the hadeeths themselves are full of reports that show that the Prophet was a very open sort of man, actually people could almost say anything to him without fear.


Firstly we need to keep in mind what the verse says. It is talking about when Muhammad has made up his mind on something that he should not be questioned. Therefore when you have an example of someone suggesting something that Muhammad accepts it is irrelevant to this verse and point.

Secondly when you bring a story about Muhammad being outvoted on something he has decided you are just demonstrating where Muslims are reported to have violated the Quran!

Thirdly, please see my position above on the reports of the hadith.

Therefore it is not a lack of knowledge of Muhammad on my part but an acknowledgement of what the Quran actually says.


Finally by way of proving my second point about the original verse in discussion, could you bring forward one character from former scripture who the Quran explains in detail when compared to the content of said former scripture?
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2015 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Mad Cat

And it was not [possible] for this Qur'an to be produced by other than Allah , but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture, about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
Originally posted by Waheed

The confirmation is confirming what is true and correct.

But in the absence of clarity about what is being confirmed one has to presume that all is being confirmed. If that is not the case, Allah is a terrible communicator.
The verse says:
…but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it…

It says ‘IT’! It does not say it confirms what is true and correct as you seem to think it does. It only says it is a confirmation of what was before it.
Either – this verse means what it says and it confirms what was before it.
Or – this verse means something else whereby the verse is not clear.

If you say ‘what was before’ has been corrupted then this verse is confirming the corruption since it does not specify what it confirms and makes no mention of rejecting parts.
Originally posted by Waheed

The arabic words for the text you referenced [somehow I have erased it, sorry] is Laa Mubaddila LikalimaatiLLaah, sometimes translated as none can change the words of God. Kalimaat has the meaning of decrees or laws. It's a very deep expression, but the point is that it's talking about the laws placed by God in the universe, not as referencing some pre-Quranic texts.

This is strange indeed because this is one verse used by Muslims to ‘prove’ the Quran has not been corrupted. I have never heard it translated the way you do. In addition to this, when I look it up in a number of translations, your understanding makes no sense.

And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.

And recite what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Book (the Quran) of your Lord (i.e. recite it, understand and follow its teachings and act on its orders and preach it to men). None can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him.

And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.

And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him.


And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord; none can alter (Literally: none can be an falterer) His Words; and apart from Him, you will never find any shielding.

It clearly is talking about words as we know them.
As before, if this verse does not mean what it says, then Allah is a terrible communicator.
Originally posted by Waheed

The Prophet's wives had to be role models, and yes, they did have a higher role too. I think I already mentioned in this thread that the Prophet's wives are called mothers of believers, that, historically, 'A'ishaa herself, may God be pleased with her, ended up becoming a great teacher of the Sunnah, because people came to her asking all sorts of questions.

Even 'petty issues' can be used and twisted by foes. I shared earlier the example of President Obama's family.

I think we are drifting away from my point. The wives of Muhammad may well be role models. That is irrelevant. Whether petty issues can be twisted by foes is also irrelevant too.

You said the Quran, when talking to or about Muhammad, focuses on the most weighty issues… your words!

I showed with a few of a great many examples that this is clearly not true.

This verse in question is going to some length to say that it is talking specifically about Muhammad’s wives and not women in general. That much is very clear!
Originally posted by Waheed

Muhammad the man doesn't know the future. There may be occasions when he- as a leader- would have to marry again for one reason or another, be it humanitarian or political. Thus, ultimately a verse was revealed telling the Prophet he cannot marry any more nor divorce any of his current wives. Moreover, as the reports we have, all his wives loved him and cherished their time with him.

It is strange then how the verse to marry more than 4 wives is not applicable to ‘leaders’ in general but ONLY to Muhammad…the very man claiming to be getting these ‘divine revelations’

As for the reports we have of Muhammad, we need to bare a few things in mind:
1 – These reports were collected 200 after Muhammad’s death
2 – They were collected in a 99% corrupt environment
3 – There would have been every reason for the wives to make stuff up, especially how much they loved M and how much he loved them.
Originally posted by Waheed

There are hadiths which talk about many issues, but the hadiths are not as accessible to the average people [until relatively recently] as the Qur'an is. The Qur'an speaks on some subjects that you find 'petty' because those things are things which create conscientious human beings.

So you now have an enormous problem! The Quran wastes huge amounts of space on repetition, saying the same things again and again and again….but it neglects so much stuff that is important to the Muslim daily life. These details are found in the hadith when they could easily have been included in the Quran. The Quran could have been an independent book, clear, concise and all-encompassing getting rid of the need for the hadith which is shocking in it’s reliability, but it did not.

Anyway my point was that the Quran could have been reserved for the weighty issues and the hadith saved for the more mundane, daily issues like Muhammad’s personal gripes. As it is, this is not the case. The Quran is full of mindless repetition and petty issues and the relatively ‘inaccessible’ hadith contain so much of what is important to the religion.
Originally posted by Waheed

Often the Qur'an will use a rather 'petty' premise to build a solid, sophisticated argument for really important issues.

One report says that a group of Bedouins [who were usually people lacking social graces] came outside of the Prophet's house yelling "Muhammad, come out"! This incident precedes the revelation of Soorat al Hujuraat [chapter 49], which speaks powerfully on issues such as social graces, racism, faith and backbiting.

And here is another problem I have with the Quran. Muslims claim that it has existed eternally and yet such verses as the one above you mention were only revealed after an incident!!!

Exactly as if Muhammad was making it up as and when a particular situation arose.







One big difference here is that Jesus was open to his Disciples comments. Sometimes they required rebuking but how else would they learn if they didn’t vocalise their opinions? Some of their greatest lessons came from them being allowed to raise their opinions.
But this is by the by the verse you brought forward is basically saying 'don’t think, just shut up and do what I say'. Very convenient for Muhammad and once again strange to find in the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times when it only really applies to a very select few people who are now 1400 years dead.

Originally posted by Waheed

I'm afraid this particular statement shows a lack of knowledge about the Prophet Muhammad [God's peace be on him]. Let me give a couple of examples to correct your misconception.

[1] We have a report in the literature how, for example, the Prophet was taking people to a particular place for a battle, and a man asked "Messenger of God, have you been informed by God for us to be based here?" He replied 'no'. The man proceeded to tell him that this place was not good to be based in, the Prophet listened and followed his advice.

[2] Again, during the siege of Madinah, when the Muslims were surrounded, the Muslims essentially outvoted the Prophet on a particular course of action [I can't remember which one off hand].

Actually, the hadeeths themselves are full of reports that show that the Prophet was a very open sort of man, actually people could almost say anything to him without fear.


Firstly we need to keep in mind what the verse says. It is talking about when Muhammad has made up his mind on something that he should not be questioned. Therefore when you have an example of someone suggesting something that Muhammad accepts it is irrelevant to this verse and point.

Secondly when you bring a story about Muhammad being outvoted on something he has decided you are just demonstrating where Muslims are reported to have violated the Quran!

Thirdly, please see my position above on the reports of the hadith.

Therefore it is not a lack of knowledge of Muhammad on my part but an acknowledgement of what the Quran actually says.


Finally by way of proving my second point about the original verse in discussion, could you bring forward one character from former scripture who the Quran explains in detail when compared to the content of said former scripture?




It says ‘IT’! It does not say it confirms what is true and correct as you seem to think it does. It only says it is a confirmation of what was before it.
Either – this verse means what it says and it confirms what was before it.
Or – this verse means something else whereby the verse is not clear.

If you say ‘what was before’ has been corrupted then this verse is confirming the corruption since it does not specify what it confirms and makes no mention of rejecting parts.


Your taking one verse and running with it. All the verses on the subject should be taken into consideration, it is by this method we get the most clear understanding.

This is strange indeed because this is one verse used by Muslims to ‘prove’ the Quran has not been corrupted. I have never heard it translated the way you do. In addition to this, when I look it up in a number of translations, your understanding makes no sense.

And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.

And recite what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Book (the Quran) of your Lord (i.e. recite it, understand and follow its teachings and act on its orders and preach it to men). None can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him.

And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.

And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him.


And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord; none can alter (Literally: none can be an falterer) His Words; and apart from Him, you will never find any shielding.

It clearly is talking about words as we know them.
As before, if this verse does not mean what it says, then Allah is a terrible communicator.


Actually, the way I have expressed Kalimaat is pretty mainstream, and can be found in various ways mentioned by the commentators and scholars of the Qur'an.

The blog reference I posted earlier has more details on that.

3 – There would have been every reason for the wives to make stuff up, especially how much they loved M and how much he loved them


Frankly, I don't think that reasoning is true. After all, "Love" from his wives or lack thereof would not matter in the mind of the historian. Solomon, according to the Bible, had over 700 wives, but his wives loving him or not is not really something anyone talks about, is it?

So you now have an enormous problem! The Quran wastes huge amounts of space on repetition, saying the same things again and again and again….but it neglects so much stuff that is important to the Muslim daily life. These details are found in the hadith when they could easily have been included in the Quran. The Quran could have been an independent book, clear, concise and all-encompassing getting rid of the need for the hadith which is shocking in it’s reliability, but it did not.


Actually the opposite is the case, if we were to compare the Bible and Qur'an. The Bible has much more in terms of content, what you would say is something that "wastes huge amounts of space on repetition"

We consider the Qur'an to be God's words, not the hadeeth. The Hadeeth literature is there, it's important, but the hadeeth does not need to be put into the Qur'an, and the Qur'an actually does exist as an independent book.

And here is another problem I have with the Quran. Muslims claim that it has existed eternally and yet such verses as the one above you mention were only revealed after an incident!!!


That's a fair thing to say, allow me to share this, the "causes of revelation" [Asbaab an Nuzool], as a field in Quranic hermeneutics, is actually controversial. Some reject it all together, and to be honest, in many respects one can read the Qur'anic text and obtain the lesson without knowing the various reports traditionally associated with it.

I mentioned the story only to provide an example, of how a seemingly minor social infraction can lead a person or an audience, when that is being addressed, to obtain profound truths.

Take a read of Soorah 49 [Al-Hujuraat], it's a short chapter, and you will see what I mean.


One big difference here is that Jesus was open to his Disciples comments. Sometimes they required rebuking but how else would they learn if they didn’t vocalise their opinions? Some of their greatest lessons came from them being allowed to raise their opinions.
But this is by the by the verse you brought forward is basically saying 'don’t think, just shut up and do what I say'. Very convenient for Muhammad and once again strange to find in the eternal book of guidance for all people for all times when it only really applies to a very select few people who are now 1400 years dead.


The Qur'an calls itself a guide for those who think, who ponder. It says ago many times. The Prophet spoke of contemplation as being more useful than a year's worth of ritual worship.

There are many reports we can share to show that the early Muslims, including his [i.e. the Prophet's own wives, may Allah be pleased with them] would even argue their points to the Prophet, and felt at ease doing it.

This is why I really urge you, if you want to have a better picture of the Prophet [peace be upon him], don't limit yourself to these forums and prejudices. Take some time to actually do some reading on him.


Finally by way of proving my second point about the original verse in discussion, could you bring forward one character from former scripture who the Quran explains in detail when compared to the content of said former scripture?


Jesus, for starters, upon whom be peace.

He was the Messiah, but not the literal son of God. He was born in an unusual way, but not Divine. He is mentioned by name 25 times, whereas Muhammad is mentioned only four times. Soorah 19 is named after Mary. Incidents from her life, his life, and the various lessons are  found throughout the text, what comes to my mind is verses in Soorah 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 19, among other places.

Joseph is another one. The Qur'an has an entire chapter dedicated to his story. The Soorah itself says "Verily, in Joseph and his brothers, there are signs for those who are seeking."

It's a powerful Soorah [one of my favorite], and contains much detail, and omits details that are irrelevant to the overall lessons [in contrast to the Genesis account, which tells us how Joseph was given an Egyptian name, among other things].

BTW I would appreciate it if you could, when posting Quranic texts, to post the chapter and verse number. It helps me out. Thanks.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2015 at 5:07pm

Originally posted by Waheed

Your taking one verse and running with it. All the verses on the subject should be taken into consideration, it is by this method we get the most clear understanding.

The trouble with this Waheed is that when you take all the verses on the subject you get contradiction not harmony! Of cause you would like to see harmony but this is not honest. This verse says it confirms what was before it and no matter how much you want that to say it 'confirms parts and rejects others', it quite simply does not! If it also says it rejects parts of what came before somewhere else in the Quran then that is a contradiction.

Originally posted by Waheed

Actually, the way I have expressed Kalimaat is pretty mainstream, and can be found in various ways mentioned by the commentators and scholars of the Qur'an.

Then what is going on with all the translations I posted? I gave you all Quran.com had to offer and none seem to agree with you. The context of this word suggests very strongly against your position.

Originally posted by Waheed

Frankly, I don't think that reasoning is true. After all, "Love" from his wives or lack thereof would not matter in the mind of the historian. Solomon, according to the Bible, had over 700 wives, but his wives loving him or not is not really something anyone talks about, is it?

Think about it, Muhammad was a superstar in his day and even today Muslims around the world clamber to be like him. If you knew something about Muhammad people would listen to you and if you were clever you could use it to your gain and elevate your status. How do you know what he was like to mimic him? Ask those closest to him. The closer the better. Aisha is credited with a huge amount of hadith because she was Muhammad favourite wife and spent more time with him that the others. Imagine what power she had after his death? The things she could say that were only spoken between the two. The more intimate they were the more opportunity for things to be said. Therefore each wife, relative and friend had every reason to play up their relationship to Muhammad. Muhammad said this... Muhammad did that...


No wonder the environment was 99% corrupt.

Originally posted by Waheed

Actually the opposite is the case, if we were to compare the Bible and Qur'an. The Bible has much more in terms of content, what you would say is something that "wastes huge amounts of space on repetition"

We consider the Qur'an to be God's words, not the hadeeth. The Hadeeth literature is there, it's important, but the hadeeth does not need to be put into the Qur'an, and the Qur'an actually does exist as an independent book.

I think you misunderstand me. The Quran is 6236 verses long. Lets say for the sake of argument that that was a limit put on the book. Allah had to say all he needed to in 6236 verses. He could say anything but that number is the limit.


In my study of the Quran Allah repeats himself again and again and again and again...so much so that if the repetition were removed I think you could get the Quran down to between 1000 and 2000 verse in length.


Let me give you one trivial example of a great many:

  1. And [recall] when We parted the sea for you and saved you and drowned the people of Pharaoh while you were looking on.

  2. So We took retribution from them, and We drowned them in the sea because they denied Our signs and were heedless of them.

  3. And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, "I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims."

  4. So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless

  5. So he intended to drive them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him all together.

  6. So Pharaoh pursued them with his soldiers, and there covered them from the sea that which covered them,

  7. Then We drowned the others.

  8. So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers.

  9. And when they angered Us, We took retribution from them and drowned them all.

  10. And leave the sea in stillness. Indeed, they are an army to be drowned."

  11. So We took him and his soldiers and cast them into the sea, and he was blameworthy.


Allah could have been explaining something important that impacts Muslims life daily and yet we get 'Pharaoh drowned', 'We drowned Pharaoh', 'remember what happened to Pharaoh? We drowned him' and on and on and on.


Your point was that the Hadith till recently have been relatively inaccessible compared to the Quran. Allah would have know this would be the case so why not either simply cut back on the repetition leaving a 1000 verse condensed version or cut back on the repetition and fill in the removed verses with something a bit more useful? Make the Quran a stand alone book and save the repetition for the Hadith if you really must have it.

Originally posted by Waheed

That's a fair thing to say, allow me to share this, the "causes of revelation" [Asbaab an Nuzool], as a field in Quranic hermeneutics, is actually controversial. Some reject it all together, and to be honest, in many respects one can read the Qur'anic text and obtain the lesson without knowing the various reports traditionally associated with it.

I mentioned the story only to provide an example, of how a seemingly minor social infraction can lead a person or an audience, when that is being addressed, to obtain profound truths.

Take a read of Soorah 49 [Al-Hujuraat], it's a short chapter, and you will see what I mean.

Im not sure where you are going with this. Are you saying that this recital calmed a rowdy crowd? If so and that is in fact true (if reports are to be believed) then how much better would it have been if recited before the incident. That would be the kind of thing you might expect from a Prophet but we find the opposite with Muhammad. Something happens and the next thing you know Muhammad gets a timely revelation.

Had the revelation come 10 minutes, an hour or a day earlier it would be prophetic rather than reactionary.

Originally posted by Waheed

The Qur'an calls itself a guide for those who think, who ponder. It says ago many times. The Prophet spoke of contemplation as being more useful than a year's worth of ritual worship.

There are many reports we can share to show that the early Muslims, including his [i.e. the Prophet's own wives, may Allah be pleased with them] would even argue their points to the Prophet, and felt at ease doing it.

This is why I really urge you, if you want to have a better picture of the Prophet [peace be upon him], don't limit yourself to these forums and prejudices. Take some time to actually do some reading on him.

The Quran also calls itself clear and that is obviously not true to those who think and ponder with an open mind. As for the reports you speak of let me reiterate my point from last time.

Either Muhammad had not made up his mind and therefore those reports are irrelevant

Or Muhammad had made up his mind and these early Muslims were defying the Quran and Allah.

Originally posted by Waheed

Jesus, for starters, upon whom be peace.

He was the Messiah, but not the literal son of God. He was born in an unusual way, but not Divine. He is mentioned by name 25 times, whereas Muhammad is mentioned only four times. Soorah 19 is named after Mary. Incidents from her life, his life, and the various lessons are  found throughout the text, what comes to my mind is verses in Soorah 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 19, among other places.

Come on Waheed, be serious. The Bible details pre-birth stories, birth stories, sermons, conversations, geographical locations, genealogies, family, friends, filling hundreds of pages with small writing. By comparison the Quran has about 73 verses in total. It offers no detail on Jesus as a personality and only presents a two dimensional, cardboard cut-out figure that no one could seriously care about.

As for the 25 & 4 thing, Muslims need to stop saying that as though it is impressive. It is deceptive! You are trying to give the impression that the Quran speaks 6 times more about Jesus than Muhammad but that is not the case, it is only a meaningless name count.


What the Quran does it to either summarise Biblical stories, deny Biblical stories or present new stories in a brief summarising way.

  • So when it summarises Biblical stories is it explaining them in detail? No!

  • And when it denies Biblical stories does it explain them in detail? No! Usually it is simply a flat denial and nothing more. Even if it did it would not fulfil the verse in question since denying and explaining in detail are two very different things.

  • And when it presents something new does it go into detail? No! Even if it did it would not fulfil the verse in question since presenting something new and explaining in detail are two very different things.


Therefore with regards to my challenge this is an epic fail.

Originally posted by Waheed

Joseph is another one. The Qur'an has an entire chapter dedicated to his story. The Soorah itself says "Verily, in Joseph and his brothers, there are signs for those who are seeking."

It's a powerful Soorah [one of my favorite], and contains much detail, and omits details that are irrelevant to the overall lessons [in contrast to the Genesis account, which tells us how Joseph was given an Egyptian name, among other things].

I thought you might bring up this example as it is the closest you have to fulfilling the challenge. However your best still fails. The story of Joseph is by and large a retelling of the Biblical story and not a detailed explanation. Put the Biblical and the Quranic versions together and any non-biased person would say the Biblical account is longer and more detailed. The Quran has some differing details but as before, differing details and a detailed explanation are two very different things.

As a side note I find it odd that you say the Quranic version omits irrelevant details but adds that Joseph was given an Egyptian name. How relevant is that to the overall lesson in your opinion?

Originally posted by Waheed

BTW I would appreciate it if you could, when posting Quranic texts, to post the chapter and verse number. It helps me out. Thanks.

I thought you were an Imam. I thought you would have all this in your head.

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2015 at 12:18pm
1 - And it was not [possible] for this Qur'an to be produced by other than Allah,
2 - but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it
3 - and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture,
4 - about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.

Still looking at this verse I have broken it down into it's elements:

#1 is obviously not true to any non-believer and to a Muslim it is only true by circular or blind faith.

#2 is simply not true since it denies the crucifixion of Jesus proclaimed by what was before it.

#3 is blatantly not true on any point imaginable. This is not even debatable really in the same way you cannot argue that a pint of milk is greater in volume than the sea. The only response to this has been to point out some details in the Quran that contradict the former scripture but this is to address a different question altogether.

#4 this verse seems to be saying there is not doubt about the former scripture which is also clearly wrong since Muslims insist it is corrupt.

I'm not sure what more to say.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2015 at 10:16pm
I can't understand why such a simple concept is so difficult for one to grasp.

The Quran is a confirmation of previous scriptures and it is a detailed explanation of what came before. Simple as that. You don't know what came before other than names so arguing that the Quran can't be a detailed form of a what was before is a futile attempt to argue something that cannot be proven.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2015 at 3:57pm

The general Islamic understanding is that the 'former scriptures' was in part the Torah, Psalms and Gospel (we shall ignore the mythical revelations sent to all other peoples for now) but they have become corrupt.

So either we have to presume the Quran is talking about these former scriptures and it is confirming something Muslims believe is corrupt

or

it is talkling about something different and Allah is a terrible communicator.

I believe I have grasped this situation quite well but am just interested to know which of the two options above Muslims go with.

You seem to be going with option 2

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2015 at 3:04am
I don't think you're grasping anything here "quite well" lol. At least I haven't seen a post where you did. Might be because you have an over-inflated perception of how deep your knowledge of Islam is.

The Quran is talking about what was actually revealed to the Jews/Christians. Do you have a copy of any of those texts?

Didn't think so.

What's that mean? Your argument that the Quran can't be detailed relative to the former scriptures goes out the window because you must admit you never read the former scriptures.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2015 at 5:09am
And what was that exactly? Is there any evidence for your understanding of the former scriptures on this planet anywhere?

Give me one example of a former scripture and a demonstration of how the Quran gives a detailed explanation of it.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2015 at 5:10am
You still sound like a number two.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2015 at 12:32pm
lol I think it's now clear that your position is not viable to disprove the Quran. No one here said they had proof that the Quran is more detailed than the former scripture because to provide that proof you need to have access to the former revelations which we don't have as purely as we do with the Quran so there is no way to do this. I just wanted to shut down your position to demonstrate to you that your position isn't really a position once we remove the belief that the Bible is Gods unaltered Word.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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