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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Topic: 3:7
    Posted: 15 March 2016 at 5:25pm
  1. It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.

  2. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

  3. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah .

  4. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.


Just reading the Quran and I came across this verse. I have broken it down into 4 parts.

  • Part one says there are specific and unspecific verses in the Quran

  • Part two says that some devious people will follow the unspecific parts seeking and interpretation that suits themselves.

  • Part three says that no-one actually knows the true meaning of the Quran.

  • Part four says people firm in knowledge claim to believe in the Quran.


What is the point of the Quran if no-one actually knows it's true meaning?


Why not give it's true meaning if you are going to give anything?


How can you blame the devious people if you are going to hold back the meaning?


What is the point of specific and unspecific parts if the true meaning is withheld both cases?


What knowledge do these people in part four who apparently are firm, actually have, given that they cannot have the true interpretation?

The Quran says again and again and again how it is clear and yet here is says its true interpretation is unknown to man. How can it then be clear?



Edited by Mad Cat - 15 March 2016 at 5:38pm
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2016 at 7:28pm
Read it again, big guy. I think you missed the point of that passage.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 16 March 2016 at 5:36am
Anyone else?
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 March 2016 at 11:47am
After that rude and immature response, I should take back my "big guy" comment....and replace it with "little guy".
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 16 March 2016 at 1:59pm
I meant no offence but our track record of dialogue has been bad and this is starting off quite typically pointlessly already so I don’t really care to get into futility once again.
Contrary to what you say, I clearly have read the verse since I have taken the time to divide it up and then summarise each part and then ask 6 questions about it.
My questions are asking ‘what is the point of the passage’ so when you tell me I have missed the point of the passage, it is almost comically bizarre. (typical of our interactions). I feel you might as well have replied ‘I am not going to reply to this thread’. I don’t understand why you took the time to reply with such a comment. That and the other reasons given are why I ask if anyone else wants to reply. Someone who might bring something.
I honestly didn’t see the ‘big guy’ comment as a compliment but I am equally happy for you to call me ‘little guy’ if that give you some satisfaction.

To anyone else reading this – is there anyone who actually wants to engage with the questions asked?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 March 2016 at 3:52pm
MadCat, it's talking about the ambiguous verses of the Quran -- no one knows its true meaning except Allah -- but the disbelievers use these vague verses to push their own agendas.

But you can also use that same expression "no one knows its true meaning except Allah" to refer to ALL the Quran and everything else for that matter. We only understand as Allah lets us understand. Without Allah, we wouldn't exist, have intellects, have language, etc.

Originally posted by MadCat

What is the point of the Quran if no-one actually knows it's true meaning?


On the contrary, this passage actually emphasizes that the clear verses are easily understood but rather it is the vague verses and passages that are used to cause disruption from the disbelievers.

Originally posted by MadCat

Why not give it's true meaning if you are going to give anything?

Read what I mentioned above. There was a misunderstanding on your part with regards to what was being mentioned as only understood by Allah.

Originally posted by MadCat

How can you blame the devious people if you are going to hold back the meaning?

Good question, but that's not the case here. The clear message is there for them to understand. They are held accountable for what they can understand. The stuff that is ambiguous or unclear is only for Allah to know and will not be held against us if we cannot make sense of it.

Originally posted by MadCat

What is the point of specific and unspecific parts if the true meaning is withheld both cases?

The unspecific parts serve a variety of functions. Some of these functions include allegorical, vividness, or outright mysteries (such as the initials at the beginning of some suras). The clear parts are what you're responsible for.

Originally posted by MadCat

What knowledge do these people in part four who apparently are firm, actually have, given that they cannot have the true interpretation?

This is their knowledge of what they understood from the Quran, the clear message, the bulk of the revelation.

Originally posted by MadCat

The Quran says again and again and again how it is clear and yet here is says its true interpretation is unknown to man. How can it then be clear?
It comes with clear-cut orders and commandments. The ambiguity is not what's stopping you from being a Muslim or following it the right way. All Muslims, regardless of sect, are pretty much in agreement on the clear-cut verses which is why they ALL seem to be the same exact religion down to the tee -- but there are indeed differences, it's just that the Quran is so clear-cut in its teachings that you don't see them.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2016 at 4:21pm
Actually this verse needs to be read very carefully.


  1. It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.

  2. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

  3. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah .

  4. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Keeping the way you divided up the text  and its  translation above, let's see what it says.


"In it are verses that are precise"  In Arabic the underlined phrase is Muhkamaat.  This term refers to that which is decisive, clear, not requiring a whole lot of interpretation. The prohibition for eating pork is a good example.


"Others unspecified". The phrase is Mutashaabihhaat. This phrase refers to things whose meaning is not immediately clear.


So it says that the people with diseased spiritual states go after the mutashaabihaat. They do so seeking power, dominion and the like.


In the Qur'an, it says that divisions and disputes did not come till certain levels of [so called] knowledge had come. Folks wanting to start their own thing and having insincerity are those addressed.


So, who does have knowledge of both Muhkamaat and mutashaabihaat?


"None know it except Allah, and those endowed with knowledge..."


The punctuation and such are not revealed. As a consequence, some [actually, many] read this as saying that none can ever have knowledge of the mutashaabihaat except God. But putting the sentences together, it says God and those with knowledge.


The people with knowledge are studying the texts from a God-conscious perspective, they want truth, not political games. God can give it to them.


This interpretation is not simply my views. It is one that is even shared by the famed Quranic scholars such as Sheikh Sha'rawi and Shaikh Muhammad Al-Ghazzali.


Those who know are prayerful to God, and those of us who cannot know about all of it, due to our own limitations, we at least acknowledge that all of it is from the presence of God.


This sort of teaching is-again- given elsewhere in the Qur'an.


Here's an excerpt with an example and comments.

"Those who think about God [i.e. Godly affairs] standing, sitting down, laying on their sides" Q 3:191

People who are trying to "make faith make sense" are constantly in thought, especially in moments of relaxation.

"These people contemplate about the contents of the heavens and the Earth" [Q 3:191]

Their thinking on Godly issues or God concept etc leads them to look at the universe. To look at not only the planets, stars and other heavenly bodies, but to look at even what they have immediate access to.

What happens when people begin to think about God and to ponder deeply their surroundings? Well, think of our immediate surroundings. Trees are useful not only in terms of paper, but are involved in the production of oxygen. A natural recycling system exists. Waste, be it from dogs, cats or humans, acts as fertilizer for the soul. Indeed, we have fossil fuels, which, basically, is the fuel that has been produced via the bones of dinosaurs and the like. In our daily speech we recognize God when we speak of an Eco-system or the immune system. "System" refers to systematic!

In another Quranic verse it says that God will show people his evidences in regions far away as well as within their own selves [Q 41:53].


So when a thoughtful person contemplates the outside world and their own inner workings, they have to reach a conclusion


Our Lord! You have not created [all] this without purpose, to you deserves glory [Q 3:191]

It all has purpose. Trees have purpose, the systems within the body have purpose. All of them function in accordance with certain parameters. They produce certain results. So our conclusion would have to be that God is the Ultimate Engineer!

So this is a solid foundation for faith in God. It is not blind faith, rather, it is actually reasonable.

http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com/2015/12/making-faith-make-sense.html






Edited by waheed1 - 17 March 2016 at 4:22pm
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2016 at 8:56am

Originally posted by Magister

] MadCat, it's talking about the ambiguous verses of the Quran -- no one knows its true meaning except Allah -- but the disbelievers use these vague verses to push their own agendas.

How do you know that? The verse says ‘no one knows ITS true meaning…’
If it were referring to the ambiguous verses it should say ‘no one knows their true meaning. Better still would be if the Quran was as clear as it pretends to be and specified exactly what it meant ‘no one knows the true meaning of the ambiguous verses
Originally posted by Magister

] But you can also use that same expression "no one knows its true meaning except Allah" to refer to ALL the Quran and everything else for that matter. We only understand as Allah lets us understand. Without Allah, we wouldn't exist, have intellects, have language, etc.

I appreciate that we don’t fully understand everything but it seems bizarre at best and unnecessarily pointless otherwise for Allah to send down ‘guidance’ whilst saying at the same time:

‘I am going to give you clear guidance and I am going to give you unclear guidance. I already know that the unclear guidance is going to be used for evil by devious people but I am going to put it in there anyway. I could have made it all clear but I won’t.’

Also I presume that there is some use in the ambiguous verses in understanding Islam. Why make them ambiguous? Surely that compromises everything.
Surely the ambiguous verses should be followed too or else they are pointless. But if you do then you are among the devious. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Originally posted by Magister

] On the contrary, this passage actually emphasizes that the clear verses are easily understood but rather it is the vague verses and passages that are used to cause disruption from the disbelievers.

I don’t see the verse saying that clear verses are easily understood but like I said above the ambiguity of those verses compromised the whole thing if you believe there is some value to them. Also again you have to see the ridiculousness of an all-knowing God explaining his method and how flawed it is.
Originally posted by Magister

] Good question, but that's not the case here. The clear message is there for them to understand. They are held accountable for what they can understand. The stuff that is ambiguous or unclear is only for Allah to know and will not be held against us if we cannot make sense of it.

But Muslims are encouraged to read the whole Quran and so they will come across both parts. How can one know what parts are in which camp? If Allah is consciously holding back the meaning then people might follow something they think is clear.
All this points to a devious god. Sending guidance that is unnecessarily unknowable (in part or whole).
That is not really guidance in any normal sense of the word.
Originally posted by Magister

] This is their knowledge of what they understood from the Quran, the clear message, the bulk of the revelation.

The trouble is that anyone can think they have knowledge based on what they think they know from what they think are clear bits. It becomes an absolute mess.
Originally posted by Magister

] It comes with clear-cut orders and commandments. The ambiguity is not what's stopping you from being a Muslim or following it the right way. All Muslims, regardless of sect, are pretty much in agreement on the clear-cut verses which is why they ALL seem to be the same exact religion down to the tee -- but there are indeed differences, it's just that the Quran is so clear-cut in its teachings that you don't see them.

This is your interpretation however, whenever I question a verse it appears to be unclear. Just like this verse. There seems to be lots of different ways of understanding what Allah is trying to say here. Ironically this verse about explaining the clear and unclear bits of the Quran is unclear itself.

There is another far simpler hypothesis that explains everything far better, including this verse and that is that Muhammad was making it up as he went along. The idea that this is the work of an all-knowing God is incredible.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2016 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Waheed

] The punctuation and such are not revealed. As a consequence, some [actually, many] read this as saying that none can ever have knowledge of the mutashaabihaat except God. But putting the sentences together, it says God and those with knowledge.

This is a big admission with large consequences. Allah is supposedly all-knowing. This means that he would have known at the time of revelation that punctuation would later be added to his work. He would have known that this punctuation would make his revelation clearer but he still decided not to add it in himself.
As you say here yourself, the punctuation plays a big role in determining what is being said.

As is so often the case with the ‘clear’ book, multiple people have multiple understandings
1.     And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah.
This one suggests that Quranic interpretations will be arrived at but no-one will be correct.
2.     …but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah.
This one is talking about hidden meanings. Add this to the above version and you get the True interpretations are consciously, actively hidden from people.
3.     None knoweth its explanation save Allah.
This version isn’t talking about true or hidden meanings but just general meaning are unknown.
4.     …but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.
We have an agreement with number 2!
5.     . but none knows its interpretation except Allah,
Similar wording but different punctuation.
6.     ; and in no way does anyone know its interpretation except Allah.
This guy uses some strong language. No one ‘IN ANY WAY’ knows what it means.

So we see some people interpreting the verse to be part of the sentence before it but most here do not.
Also all use the word ‘its’ which suggests the whole Quran is being spoken of rather than a selection of verses (their).
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2016 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Originally posted by Waheed

] The punctuation and such are not revealed. As a consequence, some [actually, many] read this as saying that none can ever have knowledge of the mutashaabihaat except God. But putting the sentences together, it says God and those with knowledge.

This is a big admission with large consequences. Allah is supposedly all-knowing. This means that he would have known at the time of revelation that punctuation would later be added to his work. He would have known that this punctuation would make his revelation clearer but he still decided not to add it in himself.
As you say here yourself, the punctuation plays a big role in determining what is being said.

As is so often the case with the ‘clear’ book, multiple people have multiple understandings
1.     And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah.
This one suggests that Quranic interpretations will be arrived at but no-one will be correct.
2.     …but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah.
This one is talking about hidden meanings. Add this to the above version and you get the True interpretations are consciously, actively hidden from people.
3.     None knoweth its explanation save Allah.
This version isn’t talking about true or hidden meanings but just general meaning are unknown.
4.     …but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.
We have an agreement with number 2!
5.     . but none knows its interpretation except Allah,
Similar wording but different punctuation.
6.     ; and in no way does anyone know its interpretation except Allah.
This guy uses some strong language. No one ‘IN ANY WAY’ knows what it means.

So we see some people interpreting the verse to be part of the sentence before it but most here do not.
Also all use the word ‘its’ which suggests the whole Quran is being spoken of rather than a selection of verses (their).


You have to look at the whole verse rather than taking a part of the text.


We are told that God sent all of it down in the form of scripture to Prophet Muhammad [Peace be upon him].

There are things in it whose meaning are not immediately clear. This Soorah itself begins with the disjointed letters. What do they mean? Yes, there is speculation and debate, and I myself have my own views as to possible meaning, but truthfully the meaning is not immediately apparent.

The verse tells us that there are folks who go after, or who seek dominion, by using texts such as that. Perhaps an example would be to Freemasons, to those secret societies who supposedly have knowledge of the secrets of Solomon, who allegedly have connections with the occult and the like. Such people are declared people of perverse hearts, they actually are devoid of Divine guidance.

The verse tells us that while the Qur'an does contain Mutashaabihaat [a term which I explained before], it also contains Muhkamaat, those things whose meanings are clear and decisive. It tells us about God concept, about morality, and about legal issues such as prohibiting Pork and alcohol.

The clear and decisive rulings are the foundation of this scripture[Umm al Kitaab] . It is the decisive which is to command the attention of Muslims, more so than that which is not immediately clear.  The Muslim  believes all of it is from the presence of God. If he knows the mutashaabihaat or not, it doesn't matter, he or she accepts that it is all from God.

There are people, both in Muslim history and among orientalists, who have, for example, opined some rather odd stuff about the disjointed letters, and those interpretations often go totally against that which is totally clear.

One writer that we have discussed on this forum in the past argues that the disjointed letters are a code which allows us to determine when the day of judgement will occur. He claims it will be in the year 2280.

Yet, the Qur'an [as does the New Testament] says repeatedly that God alone knows when that will be  {Q 7:187}.

So we would have to dismiss that author's statement.

Whatever knowledge we can get, it should not be superficial, it should be well thought out, and should conform to the overall standards in the Divine Law. That is what the text refers to.

Yes, there is disagreement about the punctuation and its subsequent interpretation. But much of what your view is here is addressed when one reads the verse in its entirety.

Regards
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2016 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Waheed

You have to look at the whole verse rather than taking a part of the text.

Hi Waheed. I hoped that it was clear that I was looking at the whole verse since in my first post I broke it down into parts and looked at them all.
Originally posted by Waheed

There are things in it whose meaning are not immediately clear. This Soorah itself begins with the disjointed letters. What do they mean? Yes, there is speculation and debate, and I myself have my own views as to possible meaning, but truthfully the meaning is not immediately apparent.

I find this strange. You bring the disjointed letters as an example of things that are not immediately clear but if you were honest you would say that in 1400 years they have not become clear – no one knows their meaning yet. That is 'not immediately clear' in the extreme.
Originally posted by Waheed

The Muslim  believes all of it is from the presence of God. If he knows the mutashaabihaat or not, it doesn't matter, he or she accepts that it is all from God.


Accepting it is from God is one thing but not relevant to what I am wanting to talk about here.
What I am asking about is how can you claim to understand much of it when Allah has purposely and unnecessarily made part of it unknowable and worst than that, potentially sinful to follow?
Originally posted by Waheed

Yes, there is disagreement about the punctuation and its subsequent interpretation. But much of what your view is here is addressed when one reads the verse in its entirety.


But we know that is not true. Translators are trying to change the meaning of exact verse we are discussing here by adding in their own punctuation. As I have pointed out some versions have a full stop (period), capital letter, new sentence while other versions have a comma, no capital letter, no new sentence.

Ill revisit my questions:
What is the point of the Quran if no-one actually knows it's true meaning?
The two options seem to be:
No one knows the true meaning of the Quran which I argue makes most sense from the way its written.
No one knows the true meaning of the ambiguous verses. This still leaves us with a huge problem. Why include them if they CANNOT be understood? How can you really understand the religion the meaning is withheld from an unknown portion of the text.

Why not give it's true meaning if you are going to give anything?
What is the point of revealing something whilst withholding its meaning?

How can you blame the devious people if you are going to hold back the meaning?
The message of the Quran is made up of all its verses, both clear and unclear. You might think you know which are which but how do you know for sure? You might be following the ambiguous verses thinking you know their meaning and thus thinking they are clear, thus being unaware that you are following the ambiguous.

What is the point of specific and unspecific parts if the true meaning is withheld both cases?
Why not make it all clear since Allah must have that option?
Why hold back the meaning of a revelation from mankind that supposedly is designed as guidance for mankind?

What knowledge do these people in part four who apparently are firm, actually have, given that they cannot have the true interpretation?
How do they know when meaning is withheld without specification of which bits are knowable?
The Quran says again and again and again how it is clear and yet here is says its true interpretation is unknown to man. How can it then be clear?


Edited by Mad Cat - 07 April 2016 at 12:48pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2016 at 5:11pm
It's hard for me to understand your post. Can you please fix the formatting, as in its current form I am unable to post a reply. Thanks
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2016 at 12:50pm
My bad. Sorry about that. Formatting fixed!
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2016 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Originally posted by Waheed

You have to look at the whole verse rather than taking a part of the text.

Hi Waheed. I hoped that it was clear that I was looking at the whole verse since in my first post I broke it down into parts and looked at them all.
Originally posted by Waheed

There are things in it whose meaning are not immediately clear. This Soorah itself begins with the disjointed letters. What do they mean? Yes, there is speculation and debate, and I myself have my own views as to possible meaning, but truthfully the meaning is not immediately apparent.

I find this strange. You bring the disjointed letters as an example of things that are not immediately clear but if you were honest you would say that in 1400 years they have not become clear – no one knows their meaning yet. That is 'not immediately clear' in the extreme.
Originally posted by Waheed

The Muslim  believes all of it is from the presence of God. If he knows the mutashaabihaat or not, it doesn't matter, he or she accepts that it is all from God.


Accepting it is from God is one thing but not relevant to what I am wanting to talk about here.
What I am asking about is how can you claim to understand much of it when Allah has purposely and unnecessarily made part of it unknowable and worst than that, potentially sinful to follow?
Originally posted by Waheed

Yes, there is disagreement about the punctuation and its subsequent interpretation. But much of what your view is here is addressed when one reads the verse in its entirety.


But we know that is not true. Translators are trying to change the meaning of exact verse we are discussing here by adding in their own punctuation. As I have pointed out some versions have a full stop (period), capital letter, new sentence while other versions have a comma, no capital letter, no new sentence.

Ill revisit my questions:
What is the point of the Quran if no-one actually knows it's true meaning?
The two options seem to be:
No one knows the true meaning of the Quran which I argue makes most sense from the way its written.
No one knows the true meaning of the ambiguous verses. This still leaves us with a huge problem. Why include them if they CANNOT be understood? How can you really understand the religion the meaning is withheld from an unknown portion of the text.

Why not give it's true meaning if you are going to give anything?
What is the point of revealing something whilst withholding its meaning?

How can you blame the devious people if you are going to hold back the meaning?
The message of the Quran is made up of all its verses, both clear and unclear. You might think you know which are which but how do you know for sure? You might be following the ambiguous verses thinking you know their meaning and thus thinking they are clear, thus being unaware that you are following the ambiguous.

What is the point of specific and unspecific parts if the true meaning is withheld both cases?
Why not make it all clear since Allah must have that option?
Why hold back the meaning of a revelation from mankind that supposedly is designed as guidance for mankind?

What knowledge do these people in part four who apparently are firm, actually have, given that they cannot have the true interpretation?
How do they know when meaning is withheld without specification of which bits are knowable?
The Quran says again and again and again how it is clear and yet here is says its true interpretation is unknown to man. How can it then be clear?


I find this strange. You bring the disjointed letters as an example of things that are not immediately clear but if you were honest you would say that in 1400 years they have not become clear – no one knows their meaning yet. That is 'not immediately clear' in the extreme.


There are people who do in fact offer opinions as to their meanings, but even if we don't know the meaning of certain things, that does not mean we reject it, or that we make that our life goal. That which is clear and useful should be our immediate interest, not things that we may or may not [usually not] be able to handle currently.



What I am asking about is how can you claim to understand much of it when Allah has purposely and unnecessarily made part of it unknowable and worst than that, potentially sinful to follow?


See above. When people get caught up on fringe things, they tend to go astray.

The Bible has things about believers being able to be immune from poison and things like that. Consequently, there has been people believing that who would take on poisonous snakes, expecting immunity, who then in fact die.


I am not judging the Bible here, but making the point that getting caught up in the fringe areas can lead one down a wrong path.


ll revisit my questions:
What is the point of the Quran if no-one actually knows it's true meaning?
The two options seem to be:
No one knows the true meaning of the Quran which I argue makes most sense from the way its written.
No one knows the true meaning of the ambiguous verses. This still leaves us with a huge problem. Why include them if they CANNOT be understood? How can you really understand the religion the meaning is withheld from an unknown portion of the text.


The point of the Qur'an is to guide those who have an awareness or sense of God.

I have used the term, with regards to your second question- "not immediately clear".

There are those among us who do have strong views as to their meanings, however those views do not become foundational for our Islamic existence. The Muhkamaat, that which is clear and decisive, that serves as our foundation.


How can you blame the devious people if you are going to hold back the meaning?
The message of the Quran is made up of all its verses, both clear and unclear. You might think you know which are which but how do you know for sure? You might be following the ambiguous verses thinking you know their meaning and thus thinking they are clear, thus being unaware that you are following the ambiguous.


Because devious people have some heart problems. They are taking advantage in order to make a perversion or some gain that is not sincere.

For the remainder of your questions, please see this post as a whole.


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