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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Topic: The Nature of God - Tawhid or Trinity ?
    Posted: 15 April 2016 at 1:47pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpqqqZn7Kg


Enlightening debate any view would be welcome.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2016 at 2:18pm
I thought it was great. Nabeel rocks.
I like Shabbir and think he is the best Muslim debater but he lost points with me big time when he miss-quoted the second commandment. It must have been something he researched and yet he still did it.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2016 at 10:00pm
I'm not sure what they are saying for two hours.

Frankly i cant understand the value that islam places on tawhid.

Its a complete waste of time.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2016 at 5:01am
It was an ok debate....I think Nabeel was way out of his league though, even though he's very well spoken. It's just that his arguments don't hold much weight, and he seems almost deceptive in his approach to many of the references he uses.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2016 at 5:04am
Originally posted by The_Rock

I'm not sure what they are saying for two hours.

Frankly i cant understand the value that islam places on tawhid.

Its a complete waste of time.


You can never be in the middle, you're either too hot or too cold lol.

Tawheed is utterly important. I think that's Christianity's BIGGEST -- by far BIGGEST -- flaw...they tried to take a monotheistic God and turn him into something that was appealing to pagans. Only One God and One God alone, leave it at that. Praise Jesus (as) as one of His greater messengers, but don't worship him, and certainly don't lie and say that he is God in the flesh!

Edited by Magister - 16 April 2016 at 8:43pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2016 at 5:38am
Nabeel details OT passage after OT passage which do not make sense unless God (although one God) is three persons.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2016 at 8:54pm
Damo, he did so using his own reasoning. He interpreted it in whatever ways he so willed. Majority (if not all) the verses he used were Hebrew poetry, and we see elsewhere with Hebrew poetry that the face value is not always what is intended as the meaning. Not to mention, it took thousands of years for Jews to finally conclude that Yahweh was a three in one deity? Wait, they never did that, the NON-JEWS did that! That alone speaks volumes on his stance when it comes to the scriptures. And like Shabir said (quoting a Christian book), you could start to use the same arguments for a trinity for a four-person deity, or a five-person deity, etc.

I won't deny it, though, he seemed to offer the most convincing evidence for a trinity that I've heard from a Christian yet...but sadly, even this falls under its own weight because there's no substance.

What saddened me most of all, though, is how he kept sticking to the point about the Quran being created vs uncreated...something that might've been a big concern a thousand years ago but which has no significant impact on Islam in the real world. Yet, while doing this, he failed to explain why such a radically different concept of God from what the Jews have held since forever was not made explicitly clear in the scriptures. But for trying, I give him an applause. He came forward well-prepared.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2016 at 7:40am
Originally posted by Magister

Damo, he did so using his own reasoning. He interpreted it in whatever ways he so willed. Majority (if not all) the verses he used were Hebrew poetry, and we see elsewhere with Hebrew poetry that the face value is not always what is intended as the meaning.


Please cite what you mean..


Originally posted by Magister

Not to mention, it took thousands of years for Jews to finally conclude that Yahweh was a three in one deity? Wait, they never did that, the NON-JEWS did that!


The first Christian's were non Jews ?


Originally posted by Magister

That alone speaks volumes on his stance when it comes to the scriptures. And like Shabir said (quoting a Christian book), you could start to use the same arguments for a trinity for a four-person deity, or a five-person deity, etc.


The OT is not a Christian book.

Originally posted by Magister

I won't deny it, though, he seemed to offer the most convincing evidence for a trinity that I've heard from a Christian yet...but sadly, even this falls under its own weight because there's no substance.


There is no substance to that statement against that which your critical of.

Originally posted by Magister

What saddened me most of all, though, is how he kept sticking to the point about the Quran being created vs uncreated...something that might've been a big concern a thousand years ago but which has no significant impact on Islam in the real world.
Yet, while doing this, he failed to explain why such a radically different concept of God from what the Jews have held since forever was not made explicitly clear in the scriptures. But for trying, I give him an applause. He came forward well-prepared.


You have have a modern Jewish understanding of what the ancient Hebrews understood of Messianic prophesy and that is what your leaning on.. but yet you nor me are Jewish.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2016 at 8:25am
Who according to Gen 3:8 did Adam and Eve hear walking in paradise and who did they hide from face to face contact with ?

Anyone ?


Edited by Damo808 - 17 April 2016 at 8:26am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2016 at 8:39am
What does the first of the Ten Commandments say?

Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2016 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

What does the first of the Ten Commandments say?



Indeed there are many false gods. It infers nothing of the nature of the God of the Hebrews however.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2016 at 11:11am
God is One

All of God's Prophets came to their people with the same message of Monotheism, to believe in the One and Only Creator, to worship Him alone, and to take no other deities beside Him.

Prophet Noah, Prophet Abraham, Prophet Moses, ... peace be upon them, all came with this same guidance for humanity

Were they all wrong?

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2016 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

God is OneAll of God's Prophets came to their people with the same message of Monotheism, to believe in the One and Only Creator, to worship Him alone, and to take no other deities beside Him.Prophet Noah, Prophet Abraham, Prophet Moses, ... peace be upon them, all came with this same guidance for humanityWere they all wrong?



None were wrong. But they also expounded on One God in 3 distinct persons. It is you who cannot get your head around it or simply just ignore those verses. Just as God said a man and a woman shall become one flesh in gen 2;24.



out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2016 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Damo808


Oh, I don't know..the 4 corners of the Earth, the universe made in 7 days, we know nothing when we die, etc. etc. The Bible is filled with a bunch of things that you Christians took literally that turned out to be completely false. So instead of me citing to you what I mean, maybe you should've cited for the rest of us where the four corners of the Earth are...

Originally posted by Damo808


The first Christian's were non Jews ?


The first Christians were Jews...it's in your own Bible. They NEVER said Yahweh was Jesus and vice versa - even you know you can't prove that because it simply doesn't exist. When the non-Jews became "in charge" of Jesus's Jewish sect, we start to see a slowly spreading belief that it's ok to worship Jesus...then several hundred years later, the trinity becomes the only legitimate version of God people can believe in. Fishy, huh?

Originally posted by Damo808


The OT is not a Christian book.


The book that Shabir was citing WASN'T even the Bible. It was a modern book written by a Christian scholar/theologian arguing on behalf of the trinity. He was quoting a Christian book with a Christian author saying that he (the author) did not know how he or anyone could justify the trinity and not justify a quaternity or some other level of Godship using the very same passages used to justify a trinity.

Originally posted by Damo808


There is no substance to that statement against that which your critical of.


LOL what do you mean there's no substance? There are WHOLE RELIGIONS based on going against what I'm critical of (whatever that means)...

This man, and a bunch of *trinitarians*, MIRACULOUSLY discovered Biblical evidence from monotheistic books that God is actually a three-in-one figure (ONLY three-in-one, not more or not less based on guesswork). Meanwhile, for thousands of years before this concept came up, God wasn't known as a trinity, and He had plenty of opportunities to tell people He was...after all, there were dozens of prophets. But he doesn't do that, does he? But surely, he would've been up front when he sent Jesus, right? Again, nope! No, what actually happened was some foreigners came and interpreted the Jewish religion for them, not much different from what you and the Rock tend to do for Muslims all the time.

[quote=Damo808]
You have have a modern Jewish understanding of what the ancient Hebrews understood of Messianic prophesy and that is what your leaning on.. but yet you nor me are Jewish.


LOL So what? I'm not a biologist, but I'll put my money on evolution as opposed to Christian creationism. What the hell does being Jewish have to do with ANYTHING? Hahahaha....damo, you never cease to amaze me, bruh. You and your pals do the monkey-see monkey-do whenever desperate for an original answer, even if the monkey-do makes absolutely no sense. "You're not Jewish, so who cares what the Jews believe about God?" Your religion is SUPPOSED to be Judaism, NOT Christianity. It's based on JUDAISM from its earliest days. The ORIGINAL Christians weren't Christians, they were JEWS. They prayed at the temple three times a day, they didn't eat pork or shellfish, their only Bible was the TANAKH. Their views of God mirrored what OTHER Hebrews believed. Their views of Jesus (as) were the views their Jewish ancestors had for people like Moses and Elijah. Their views are EXTREMELY important because without them, there would be no Christianity. Without them, we wouldn't understand the context in which Jesus was preaching. Dismissing the Jews is fatal if we want to truly understand the origins of Christianity (and even Islam).

Edited by Magister - 17 April 2016 at 9:58pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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