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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2017 at 4:36pm
Critical thinking was around way before Christians lol

And when some Christians embraced it, we all know what happened to them.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2017 at 4:37pm
Here, this should set your atheist "historian" straight:

http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/a-brief-history-of-the-idea-of-critical-thinking/408
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Saved Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2017 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by ishammad


Jesus Testifies Against the Trinity
(21 min video)

I wanted to inquire about the meaning of hebrew word "Shema", It came to my mind that it could have a meaning similar or close to the arabic word "Shahada", which means testimony.
but I just read that it means "hear" and i instantly remembered an arabic word with the same meaning and a very near pronunciation. then i remembered a verse mentioning the Jews and using this word a couple of times.
The term trinity never existed at the time of Jesus only the concept did. Just the fact that Jesus calls God His father and God calling Jesus His "Beloved Son..." contradicts your post The gospel is about God being one and Jesus is His word.

God is not human flesh and blood. God is Spirit, and He is Holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit - the HS is not Gabriel. No one can explain the oneness of God.
In fact, the Allah of the Quran and Allah's messenger knew nothing about what makes up God's tri unity to the gospel believing true Christians. We can see by what Allah implies and the questions he asked Jesus. Allah alludes to the trinity being the mother, son and father as Allah being the third of three. Why didn't Allah know what true Christians believed? The information was available before the Quran was compiled and recompiled by Uthman?

The shahadah may be a testimony for you but very problematic for a Christian who doesn't want to make an idolatrous association to God; so, we could never hold to that testimony.

We admit that we associate Jesus to God as His Word. As I have already mentioned, this is not an idolatrous association, because God's Word is associated to only Him, as my word to me and yours to you, but the testimony you refer to associates Muhammad to Allah in the second part of the shahadah as a created non deity slave messenger. You must mention this type of association as an oracle of Muslim faith or you cannot be identified with Islam. Isn't this correct?

Edited by Saved - 18 January 2017 at 12:58pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2017 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Saved

Just the fact that Jesus calls God His father contradicts your post and God calling Jesus His "Beloved Son...".

“This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Matthew 6:9

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’John 20:17

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Matthew 6:9

"Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22

"Adam, which was the son of God" Luke 3:38
How many 'Sons' does God have?

Originally posted by Saved

The gospel is about God being one and Jesus is His word.
In fact, the Allah of the Quran and Allah's messenger knew nothing about what makes up God's tri unity to the gospel believing true Christians.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. Quran 4:171

Originally posted by Saved

We can see by what Allah implies and the questions he asked Jesus. Allah alludes to the trinity being the mother, son and father as Allah being the third of three. Why didn't Allah know what true Christians believed?

There are Christians who directed their supplications to Mary, and there are Christians who called her "The mother of God" as far as i know.


Edited by ishammad - 18 January 2017 at 3:42pm
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Saved Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2017 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by ishammad

“This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Matthew 6:9
Jesus said to ask the father for things in Jesus' name and he will do it. What is your point with this verse?
Originally posted by ishammad


Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’John 20:17
Jesus was saying in context not to get to think he would be staying around. He rose from the dead and he was about to be caught up to God.
Originally posted by ishammad


For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Matthew 6:9
That is right the Spiri of God is God, Just like our spirit is the real us. We have been created in God's image and likeness.
Originally posted by ishammad


"Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22
Jesus is the culmination of Israel
Originally posted by ishammad


"Adam, which was the son of God" Luke 3:38
How many 'Sons' does God have?
Yes, the first Adam was God's son, but he wasn't the Word of God made human. Besides didn't Allah tell Satan to prostrate before Adam? We must all prostrate before the last Adam (Jesus) or we'll be found to be fighting against God.
Originally posted by ishammad


O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. Quran 4:171


John 3:36 English Standard Version (ESV)

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Your protest and debate is with Jesus and God not me.


Originally posted by Saved

We can see by what Allah implies and the questions he asked Jesus. Allah alludes to the trinity being the mother, son and father as Allah being the third of three. Why didn't Allah know what true Christians believed?

Originally posted by ishammad


There are Christians who directed their supplications to Mary, and there are Christians who called her "The mother of God" as far as i know.
So, this is true, but they never imply Mary is part of God's tri unity (Trinity), but Allah thought they do according to what he implies by the way he questions Jesus. I find the Allah of Islam appears to be reactionary.

Edited by Saved - 18 January 2017 at 6:35pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2017 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Saved

Originally posted by Aviatrix

Only the Qur'an is the unalterable word of God. Not sure that any other scripture gets that distinction.

Why would Allah discriminate against His own word making one part unalterable and another not alterable. , Sorry, but logic and reason is what I fail to see here in your statement. I am sure all God's word has the same distinction. He only speaks what is always important to note and keep at heart.


The Qur'an is quite quite different from the Bible. It is quite different from whatever description you can muster of "Gospel" and it is quite different from the Jewish scriptures as well.

Have you read it?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2017 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Originally posted by Aviatrix

Can you prove this statement?

I dont understand your point in asking this question.
Muslims believe the 'injeel' was given to Jesus.
We have both said in this thread that the Quran is hopelessly vague in what it is referring to, and since there is no evidence anywhere on the entire planet of a Quran type book but for Jesus we can only guess.
The standard Islamic position I have come across is that this 'Injeel' was given to Jesus and was then corrupted into the NT we have today.
If you believe an 'Injeel' was in fact given to Jesus there are only three possibles I can see:
1. The 'injeel' was corrupted/changed/altered and remnants of it exist in the NT
2. The 'injeel' has completely been lost and nothing remains of it.
3. The NT is the 'injeel' and it is uncorrupted since no one can corrupt the words of Allah.

All three options have huge problems when thought is applied.


Question. Do you suppose that Muslims believe Jesus was quoting verbatim God's word as they believe Muhammad did with the Qur'an? And is that a textually supported belief?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2017 at 7:39am
Hi Amy. I am under the impression that Muslims don’t know what they believe with this and when asked they will probably reply with ‘Allah knows’. Below is what I believe:

Muslims believe the ‘Gospel’ was ‘sent down’ to Jesus. This suggests a similar method and situation to Muhammad and the Quran. Therefore it is reasonable to presume this is the best understanding. I am not sure what alternatives there are.
Therefore Jesus was given words from Allah to speak to the people and the Gospel was his message.

However there is no evidence for any such ‘Gospel’, anywhere one the planet. This silence is beyond suspicious.

What we do have are the Christian scriptures that records Jesus’ sayings and doings.

In the absence of anything to back up their theory, Muslims are forced to say that the NT is a corrupt form of this mythical ‘Gospel’ that was sent down to Jesus.

Have I got anything wrong? If so, please explain what and how.

I am still unclear as to your line of questioning. Do you not believe the Allah sent down the Pslams to David and the Gospel to Jesus?
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2017 at 7:59am
Magister, you made an outrageous, unreferenced comment.
Originally posted by Magister

The more that Christians realize that critical thinking skills aren't the tools of Satan as most churches want to make their followers believe, the more will flock to Islam!


I asked you to substantiate your claim which is perfectly reasonable for me to do.
Originally posted by Mad Cat

I wonder how many churches you have visited to make such a statement.


And you dodged the question by asking about my opinion of Darwin’s theory.
Originally posted by Magister

Well, let's test it out...
Do you accept evolution by natural selection as laid out by Charles Darwin?


So I asked you again to substantiate your claim
Originally posted by Mad Cat

So how many churches have you visited? All of them I presume to make the statement you did. Or did you just invent something off the top of your head and pretend it was fact?

You dodge the question again. You bold the word ‘every’ like you have visited most but not every single one and you give us a percentage – 97%
And then you accuse me of dodging questions!!!
Originally posted by Magister

Not every church, but I'd be willing to bet the shirt off my back that at least 97% of them are as I described them.

and I saw you dodged my question - likely because the answer you'd give would prove my point

Like I said, I have never experienced anything close to this being preached ever in any church I have been to.

The only other time I have ever heard a claim like this was from a convert to Islam who I believe was trying to put down his ‘former faith’ to a Muslim crowd.

So the original question still stands. How many churches have you visited to make the claim that 97% of churches teach that critical thinking is the tool of Satan?

In any normal situation if you cannot substantiate such a claim you should withdraw it. Something tells me you will not do either.


Edited by Mad Cat - 19 January 2017 at 7:59am
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2017 at 7:30pm
I can't remember how many I visited, but that's my rough estimate - but if you ask around, my estimates are good enough to bet your house on
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Saved Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2017 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Originally posted by Mad Cat

Originally posted by Aviatrix

Can you prove this statement?

I dont understand your point in asking this question.
Muslims believe the 'injeel' was given to Jesus.
We have both said in this thread that the Quran is hopelessly vague in what it is referring to, and since there is no evidence anywhere on the entire planet of a Quran type book but for Jesus we can only guess.
The standard Islamic position I have come across is that this 'Injeel' was given to Jesus and was then corrupted into the NT we have today.
If you believe an 'Injeel' was in fact given to Jesus there are only three possibles I can see:
1. The 'injeel' was corrupted/changed/altered and remnants of it exist in the NT
2. The 'injeel' has completely been lost and nothing remains of it.
3. The NT is the 'injeel' and it is uncorrupted since no one can corrupt the words of Allah.

All three options have huge problems when thought is applied.


Question. Do you suppose that Muslims believe Jesus was quoting verbatim God's word as they believe Muhammad did with the Qur'an? And is that a textually supported belief?
Jesus Himself is verbatim Word of God. Jn. 1
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2017 at 5:46am
Originally posted by Magister

I can't remember how many I visited, but that's my rough estimate - but if you ask around, my estimates are good enough to bet your house on

Based on what??!? You make a rough estimate based on what???

There must be millions of churches in the world.
If we grossly underestimated the number down to 1,000,000 churches
And you visited 1% of them that would mean that you have visited 10,000 churches. There are 52 Sundays in a year which means you would have to have been going to church every Sunday for 192 years.
Now how many of those churches were giving the exact sermon on critical thinking on the Sunday you happened to visit?
And if 100% of these churches happened to be preaching against critical thinking on the day you went there, is a survey of 1% of churches sufficient to make a judgement?
The reality of what you claim is utterly ridiculous.

I see that you are trying to laugh this off but as I predicted you neither substantiate your claim nor retract it.

The point of bringing this up is that when we can prove what you say one way or the other (like here) we see that you are just making stuff up off the top of your head and passing it off as fact. So why should anything you say be taken seriously.
Secondly you seem to happily go along with an Islamic mind-set that sees nothing wrong with pushing falsehood if it furthers Islam. Truth is merely a stumbling block.

And all this falls under the context of Christians being accused of rejecting critical thinking!!!

Edited by Mad Cat - 20 January 2017 at 5:48am
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2017 at 9:42am
here here
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2017 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Originally posted by Magister

I can't remember how many I visited, but that's my rough estimate - but if you ask around, my estimates are good enough to bet your house on

Based on what??!? You make a rough estimate based on what???

There must be millions of churches in the world.
If we grossly underestimated the number down to 1,000,000 churches
And you visited 1% of them that would mean that you have visited 10,000 churches. There are 52 Sundays in a year which means you would have to have been going to church every Sunday for 192 years.
Now how many of those churches were giving the exact sermon on critical thinking on the Sunday you happened to visit?
And if 100% of these churches happened to be preaching against critical thinking on the day you went there, is a survey of 1% of churches sufficient to make a judgement?
The reality of what you claim is utterly ridiculous.

I see that you are trying to laugh this off but as I predicted you neither substantiate your claim nor retract it.

The point of bringing this up is that when we can prove what you say one way or the other (like here) we see that you are just making stuff up off the top of your head and passing it off as fact. So why should anything you say be taken seriously.
Secondly you seem to happily go along with an Islamic mind-set that sees nothing wrong with pushing falsehood if it furthers Islam. Truth is merely a stumbling block.

And all this falls under the context of Christians being accused of rejecting critical thinking!!!


I noticed that you avoided the question...

Is the earth billions of years old or thousands of years old?

Did dinosaurs exist? If so, when?

Is global warming a threat to humanity?

Did evolution by natural selection, as laid out by Charles Darwin, really happen? Is it a fact or "just a theory"?

Let's see how you answer. You got the chance to prove me wrong here and now.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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