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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 6:20am
Originally posted by Non Believer

[QUOTE=Niblo] [QUOTE=Non Believer]

Niblo, I wonder if you have any thoughts on the evolution of God's love through the course of the Bible. It seems to me that the Hebrews of the Pentateuch, the Israelites in Babylonia and the Christians of the Apostolic Period have substantially different perceptions of God's love.


Hello.

Would love to come back on this. I will not be able to do so until next week, in šāʾ Allāh. Pressing stuff to do first, both at work and at home. Please excuse the delay.

Have a great day, and very best regards.
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Niblo

Cat was very unhappy that I quoted the following verse in support of the truth that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not declare His love from afar: ‘We created man - We know what his soul whispers to him: We are closer to him than his jugular vein.’ (Qaf 16).

I am not so much unhappy as I am unconvinced. You brought forward one verse from the Quran to support your theory and I showed that in it’s context it does not sound like a comfort as much as a threat. There is no love spoken of in this verse, the verses either side are very aggressive and condemning and it ends with hell. This is not me being unhappy but rather stating the facts.

In addition to this the verse with it post context talks about the recorders/receivers sitting on your shoulders. It reads like it is these beings who are the ones who are actually close to us and not Allah. Allah is close by default.
Originally posted by Quran

And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein When the two receivers receive, seated on the right and on the left. Man does not utter any word except that with him is an observer prepared [to record].

Just to reiterate, I am not unhappy but I see no evidence that Allah is close as you propose.
Originally posted by Niblo

Cat is not alone in preaching the lie that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is a very impersonal Being, with whom a believer can never get to enjoy a close relationship.

I feel this is a bit harsh. Originally I said
The love of God in Christianity is best understood through action. The difference I personally see between Christianity and Islam is that Allah of Islam says he Loves where the God of Christianity demonstrates it in the most incredible way. While Allah seems to tell us he Loves from afar the God of Christianity stops at nothing to show us.

I am not preaching but offering my personal opinion. I still stand by that. Actions speak louder than words.
Originally posted by Niblo

These and other passages clearly show that the relationship between man and the Beloved is meant to be a very close and personal one.

If Cat has a problem with this, then it is very much his problem.

I am sensing a change in tone towards me. As mentioned above I offer an opinion. What I see here is you proving my point a bit. I said originally that IMO Allah tells us he loves us where the God of the Bible demonstrates His love. You have listed a few verses where Allah says he cares.
No problem, just an opinion.
Originally posted by Niblo

Cat: By all means start a thread on Hell; only be sure (if you wish me to participate) to include relevant passages from both the Bible and Qur’an; objective – and supported – comments; and that you don’t turn the thread into yet another Islam bashing session.

I feel my point was somewhat overlooked. I will repeat:
Now it is not the existence of Hell that concerns me but the sheer delight Allah seems to have for it. The depths of the creativity he employs in order to invent horrible punishments for people is staggering. I believe that the best position in hell sees the ‘lucky’ individual being given sandals made out of fire to wear which are so hot that his brain will boil.

In addition to this is the obsession Allah has with hell. By my count, on average, every 6th verse of the Quran talks about hell. The Quran is absolutely fixated with it. The only more common subject in the Quran is unbelievers, non-believers and polytheists making up about a third of it (not including Jews and Christians). Of cause those two subjects are usually spoken of together.

I personally don’t mind either way about discussing this but you seemed to show an interest.

Back to the main point of this thread I don’t see how God’s love is conditional. Acceptance of it is optional but the love offered has no conditions on it.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 9:51am
Originally posted by Mad Cat

[Quote=Niblo] Back to the main point of this thread I don’t see how God’s love is conditional. Acceptance of it is optional but the love offered has no conditions on it.


Hello again.

Then on this matter we must agree to differ.

By all means discuss Hell, but be advised that I shall be unavailable for a while. See my post to NB above.

Have a great Easter, and very best regards.

Edited by Niblo - 12 April 2017 at 9:52am
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:15am
Another fine post, Niblo. Thank you.

The following is something for which there seems to be considerable disagreement and I'm totally confused about the various positions.
Originally posted by Niblo

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) acknowledges any good that a Muslim does: ‘Anyone who does good of his own accord will be rewarded, for Allāh rewards good deeds, and knows every-thing.’ (Al-Baqara 158); and again: ‘If anyone does good, We shall increase it for him; Allāh is most forgiving and most appreciative.’ (Al-Shura 23).
Unless, I've gravely misunderstood, many Christians believe that God rewards faith and not deeds. Have I misunderstood? Is this a schism in Christianity?
Originally posted by Niblo

He does the same for Jews and Christians, of course.
What about for those who don't belong to this chosen line? Aren't they also His creation? What about those who were born into this chosen line but reject a belief in a God who intervenes in worldly affairs?
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Another fine post, Niblo. Thank you.

The following is something for which there seems to be considerable disagreement and I'm totally confused about the various positions.
Originally posted by Niblo

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) acknowledges any good that a Muslim does: ‘Anyone who does good of his own accord will be rewarded, for Allāh rewards good deeds, and knows every-thing.’ (Al-Baqara 158); and again: ‘If anyone does good, We shall increase it for him; Allāh is most forgiving and most appreciative.’ (Al-Shura 23).
Unless, I've gravely misunderstood, many Christians believe that God rewards faith and not deeds. Have I misunderstood? Is this a schism in Christianity?
Originally posted by Niblo

He does the same for Jews and Christians, of course.
What about for those who don't belong to this chosen line? Aren't they also His creation? What about those who were born into this chosen line but reject a belief in a God who intervenes in worldly affairs?


Thank you.

In šā Allāh I'll add these to my next post to you.

Must dash. Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Saved Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

Unless, I've gravely misunderstood, many Christians believe that God rewards faith and not deeds. Have I misunderstood? Is this a schism in Christianity?


Why are you asking a Muslim about Christianity and yes you have gravely misunderstood? Your view has the schism in it not Christianity

Edited by Saved - 12 April 2017 at 12:30pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Saved Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Niblo

[Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) acknowledges any good that a Muslim does: ‘Anyone who does good of his own accord will be rewarded, for Allāh rewards good deeds, and knows every-thing.’ (Al-Baqara 158); and again: ‘If anyone does good, We shall increase it for him; Allāh is most forgiving and most appreciative.’ (Al-Shura 23).
The point is good deeds are a trap designed to destroy your soul, because it can deceive us into thinking you have a good relationship with God when He sees our good deeds as filthy rags. the only kind of good deeds God recognizes is the good He does through us and that takes faith. Good deeds in it of itself is only good to reap what you sow here and now in this life, but it does nothing for saving your soul.

Salvation is a gift. Trying to work for a gift makes it no longer a gift. It only insults God by saying what you have done for me is not enough I must add good deeds to it. We are saved by God's grace through faith. remember you can have good deeds without faith, but you cannot have faith without good deeds. don't be deceived. Read Gal. 3. Don't miss understand, I am not saying good deeds are wrong; it is good, but good can be the enemy of the best! Without faith we cannot please God!

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Saved

Originally posted by Non Believer

Unless, I've gravely misunderstood, many Christians believe that God rewards faith and not deeds. Have I misunderstood? Is this a schism in Christianity?


Why are you asking a Muslim about Christianity and yes you have gravely misunderstood? Your view has the schism in it not Christianity
I asked Niblo because I know that he has studied these things. I'm open to, and expected, responses from others.

I know that this doctrine is a major demarcation of the Protestant/Catholic divide, but that's about all I know about it. You're welcome to add to my understanding, if you choose. However, I'm looking for balance. I wouldn't expect that from you.

You are correct, I suppose, that it is not Christianity with the schism; it is the Christian Church. I should be more careful about this distinction. However, you shouldn't insult me for this subtle semantic error. You knew perfectly well what I was referring to.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Saved Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Saved

Originally posted by Non Believer

Unless, I've gravely misunderstood, many Christians believe that God rewards faith and not deeds. Have I misunderstood? Is this a schism in Christianity?


Why are you asking a Muslim about Christianity and yes you have gravely misunderstood? Your view has the schism in it not Christianity
I asked Niblo because I know that he has studied these things. I'm open to, and expected, responses from others.

I know that this doctrine is a major demarcation of the Protestant/Catholic divide, but that's about all I know about it. You're welcome to add to my understanding, if you choose. However, I'm looking for balance. I wouldn't expect that from you.

You are correct, I suppose, that it is not Christianity with the schism; it is the Christian Church. I should be more careful about this distinction. However, you shouldn't insult me for this subtle semantic error. You knew perfectly well what I was referring to.
How were you insulted? Now, if I said, "I'm looking for balance, and I wouldn't expect that from you," I could see you feeling that way to a point, but you said that not me.

I simply told you there is no schism in Christianity, but there was in your view" How could I know what you mean when Niblo was agreeing with you? I haven't said anything about you personally for you to get insulted, or did you mean I insulted your pride?

It is not the Christian Church with the schism either. There is only one Church, but bad apples get in there. God will deal with the church first then the world. These things I say are not me speaking my words. It is all found in the Scriptures.

Edited by Saved - 12 April 2017 at 4:04pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 5:15pm
The only way I can make sense of this is that you don't know that "schism" means.

For you to say that "my view has the schism in it" is to say that I'm not thinking coherently. I find that insulting. However, since it seems clear that you don't know what the word means, I won't take it as an insult now. You also say that I have gravely misunderstood, yet, I'm pretty sure you are actually confirming that I've understood correctly.

Why don't you focus on increasing my understanding of the practical differences in the two views that I asked about initially? And, since this is an Islamic forum, why not also add to my understanding of how Islam compares to both sides of this Christian doctrine.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

The following is something for which there seems to be considerable disagreement and I'm totally confused about the various positions.
Originally posted by Niblo

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) acknowledges any good that a Muslim does: ‘Anyone who does good of his own accord will be rewarded, for Allāh rewards good deeds, and knows every-thing.’ (Al-Baqara 158); and again: ‘If anyone does good, We shall increase it for him; Allāh is most forgiving and most appreciative.’ (Al-Shura 23).
Unless, I've gravely misunderstood, many Christians believe that God rewards faith and not deeds. Have I misunderstood? Is this a schism in Christianity?

To say that it is faith only that matters is a very big mistake, contrary to what the messenger taught.
I see this as one who chose to take part of a sentence and run with it for whatever reason.

As for the following category:

And those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Why were not angels sent down to us, or [why] do we [not] see our Lord?" They have certainly become arrogant within themselves and [become] insolent with great insolence.[ 25:21

I did quote a great verse the other day that caused me to grief.

The day they see the angels - no good tidings will there be that day for the criminals, and [the angels] will say, "Prevented and inaccessible." 25:22

And We will regard what they have done of deeds and make them as dust dispersed. 25:23

or this translation

And We shall turn to whatever deeds they did, and We shall make such deeds as scattered floating particles of dust. 25:23

Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Niblo

He does the same for Jews and Christians, of course.
What about for those who don't belong to this chosen line? Aren't they also His creation?

O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. 7:35

Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. 2:62

Muhammad (pbuh) is the most recent and sent to all people.

Originally posted by Non Believer

What about those who were born into this chosen line but reject a belief in a God who intervenes in worldly affairs?

We only say about Allah what He said about Himself via revelation to His prophets and messengers. And not to say anything contrary to that or say anything without knowledge (i.e.beyond that).

The meaning of the words conveyed is understood, kind of we know "the what", not "the how" and we should not concern ourselves with "the how".

He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count. 32:5

Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?" They will say, " Allah ," so say, "Then will you not fear Him?"

For that is Allah , your Lord, the Truth. And what can be beyond truth except error? So how are you averted? 10:31-32

And We have created above you seven layered heavens, and never have We been of [Our] creation unaware. 23:17

Everyone upon the earth will perish,
And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you [the two classes (jinns and men)] deny?
Whoever is within the heavens and earth asks Him; every day He is bringing about a matter.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
We will attend to you, O prominent beings.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
55:27-32

Edited by ishammad - 13 April 2017 at 3:00pm
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Saved Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2017 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

The only way I can make sense of this is that you don't know that "schism" means.

For you to say that "my view has the schism in it" is to say that I'm not thinking coherently. I find that insulting. However, since it seems clear that you don't know what the word means, I won't take it as an insult now. You also say that I have gravely misunderstood, yet, I'm pretty sure you are actually confirming that I've understood correctly.

Why don't you focus on increasing my understanding of the practical differences in the two views that I asked about initially? And, since this is an Islamic forum, why not also add to my understanding of how Islam compares to both sides of this Christian doctrine.
No, I didn't mean it that way. I meant that there was a split between you and Christianity. Schism means a spilt one separating himself from being part of something they disbelieve. Perhaps instead of saying I insulted you, you should ask me "What did you mean by that?" then you wouldn't have gotten offended unless you are really a Christian playing the devils advocate.   In short, schism doesn't mean "not thinking coherently." And you say I don't know what it means? But now that you mentioned it, do you feel you're are thinking coherently in this situation?

Edited by Saved - 12 April 2017 at 10:54pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2017 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Niblo

When it comes to His preserving love the Exalted can righty be said to value all things equally; both animate and inanimate. This has nothing to with sanctifying love; the love bestowed upon rational creatures for their eternal salvation.






Originally posted by Niblo

My point is that God’s preserving love must, of necessity, be given to all things. It is not a question of hierarchy. The love that holds this particular human in existence is no ‘higher’ than that which holds in being the tadpoles in my pond; the tree in my garden; the stones that drive me nuts every time I try to dig a trench; the spade I use to dig that trench; or the very universe itself.


I find the above statements to be at their far reaching conclusions contradictory.


Of all creation, the animate and the inanimate that has been observed and studied here on earth to as far as our deepest space probes can see at least so far... . There is nothing alike to man in creation. Genesis tells us that man and man alone was made in God's image.

To then say therefore that there is an indifference so to speak of God for man aside all other created things is to diminish both that created individuality assigned to man who being made in the likeness of God is evidence therefore that man himself is elevated above other creation as God is Himself distinct from all created things.

Jesus in Mat 10:29-31 assures us "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.b 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." or even tadpoles.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2017 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Damo808

I find the above statements to be at their far reaching conclusions contradictory.

Of all creation, the animate and the inanimate that has been observed and studied here on earth to as far as our deepest space probes can see at least so far... . There is nothing alike to man in creation. Genesis tells us that man and man alone was made in God's image.

To then say therefore that there is an indifference so to speak of God for man aside all other created things is to diminish both that created individuality assigned to man who being made in the likeness of God is evidence therefore that man himself is elevated above other creation as God is Himself distinct from all created things.

Jesus in Mat 10:29-31 assures us "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.b 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." or even tadpoles.


I’m about to leave on my holiday, but can spare these few minutes.

God is Love (agape). That is His nature. You are confusing (and not for the first time) the two ways in which His love is expressed.

I wrote this: ‘…. the Catholic Church declares that (God) continually preserves in existence all created things. The First Vatican Council declared: ‘God, by His Providence, protects all that He has created’, which is to say that He preserves it from relapsing into nothingness: ‘If His Providence did not preserve all things with the same power with which they were created in the beginning they would fall back into nothingness immediately.’ (Denzinger 1784).

Take special note of these words: ‘(God) CONTINUALLY PRESERVES IN EXISTENCE ALL CREATED THINGS.’

This is preserving love ONLY.

Every creature that lives in your home enjoys this same preserving love. Every microbe living in, or on, your body enjoys this same preserving love.

Who did Christ die for (according to your own theology)? He died for human beings - and by so doing: ‘Reconciled us with God, made unto us justice and sanctification and redemption.’ (Denziger 790).

And how are we sanctified…..made holy? Through - and only through - that other expression of God’s love - SANCTIFYING LOVE. It is THIS that sets humankind above the animals.

It is really that difficult to understand?



Edited by Niblo - 13 April 2017 at 12:51pm
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