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Non Believer  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Topic: We have given the Scripture [6:20]
    Posted: 24 June 2017 at 2:32pm
What is "the Book" or "the Scripture" that is being referred to in [6:20]?

Originally posted by Quran 6:20

Those to whom We have given the Scripture recognize it as they recognize their [own] sons. Those who will lose themselves [in the Hereafter] do not believe.

Since this verse is describing the Scripture as already given, it must not be referring to this surah and anything written after it, right?

Does the Quran consist of surah which are considered to be scriptural while other surah are not?
Dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2017 at 3:44pm
In the Quran, Book/Scripture refers to the Torah, given to Moses, the Injeel given to Jesus and the Quran revealed to Muhammad, peace be upon them. and i suppose it can refer to more than one of these.

The Psalm given to David and the Sheets given to Abraham are also mentioned. So what the Book refers to, depends on the verse and its context.

Here i suppose it refers to the scriptures revealed before the Qur'an.

Those to whom We have given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognize him (i.e. Muhammad SAW as a Messenger of Allah, and they also know that there is no Ilah (God) but Allah and Islam is Allah's Religion), as they recognize their own sons. Those who destroy themselves will not believe. (Tafsir At-Tabari) (Qur'an 6:20)

You may also like to have a look at the short commentary: Towards Understanding The Qur'an (6:20) Al-Maududi

And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech. (Qur'an 4:164)

Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2017 at 7:52pm
Not by our beliefs, NB, are there Suras that are "more scriptural" than others. They are all from God and are considered scripture.

As Ishammad explained so beautifully, this passage in particular was likely referring to the Pslams, Injeel, Scrolls (of Abraham), or the Torah. It might've also been spoken to a Judeo-Christian audience at that time.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2017 at 3:13pm
As has been pointed out to me several times, the context of a Surah must be understood in order to understand its meaning. I find it odd that the Surahs are not organized in their order of revelation. Since the Quran was revealed during a period of 23 years, Islam and Muhammad's role evolved significantly during this time.

So the question I'm trying to find an answer to is "what exactly was Muhammad preaching at this point in the development of this new religion?" Was it essentially a form of Christianity? In what ways had Muhammad's monotheism diverged from that of Judaism and Christianity at this point in time?

Surah 6 Al-An'am appears to be directed towards polytheists and is criticizing them for not being true to the monotheism of their ancestor Abraham. In 6:84-87, a number of prophets are mentioned who were descendants of Abraham, yet these were not ancestors of the polytheists in Makkah.

In short, we have a long tirade chastising the polytheists for not following a scripture that was not theirs but based on the fact that the scripture was given literally to cousins. Overall, the Surah is such a negative message. In the introduction on https://quran.com/6 it says: "Twelve years had passed since the Holy Prophet had been inviting the people to Islam. The antagonism and persecution by the Quraish had become most savage and brutal, and the majority of the Muslims had to leave their homes and migrate to Habash (Abyssinia). "

Who wouldn't become antagonistic toward this sort of speech?

My main takeaway is the contradiction of the assertions that Islam is tolerant of those who disbelieve in Muhammad's religious beliefs. Muhammad is condemning the polytheist for their beliefs, not the evils of their society. That's not to say that these particular polytheists might not have had some evil beliefs. No religion is immune from that possibility.

This particular surah would've had much more relevance to me had it focused on pointing out the evils of the Makkan culture of that time, for example human sacrifice [6:137], rather than lambasting its religious foundations.

Towards the end of the Surah, there are a number of verses concerning restrictions and prohibitions which are contradicting those of the polytheists and are either contradicting or confirming those of the Jews. It seems to be trying to make the point that Muhammad's message is somehow based on a truer vision, but isn't it the case that the polytheists are also being guided by the same God, whether they know it or not? Furthermore, a non-believer like myself judges these matters based on evidence and science alone.

And rites of sacrifice* [6:162]? Only theists believe in sacrifices and who's to say what God accepts as a sacrifice (just ask Cain!)? Why are sacrifices needed? This is so much nonsense.

(*from http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tafheem/sura6-aya162.html "'The Arabic word nusuk used here signifies ritual sacrifice as well as the other forms of devotion and worship.")
Dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2017 at 5:41pm
Revelation Order of the Qur'an

Revelation Order - little more detailed list

Their meat will not reach Allah, nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good. (22:37)

Its not clear to me what do you mean by "the polytheists are also being guided by the same God, whether they know it or not?"

He is the God of all, but those who turn their backs to His guidance are astray. no question.

Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2017 at 7:22pm
[40:78] And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those [whose stories] We have related to you, and among them are those [whose stories] We have not related to you. And it was not for any messenger to bring a sign [or verse] except by permission of Allah . So when the command of Allah comes, it will be concluded in truth, and the falsifiers will thereupon lose [all].

[16:36] And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

So my question to you is: since Allah has sent messengers even to the polytheists, how can you presume to know that they are not obeying the messages that were sent to them?
Dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2017 at 8:00pm
16:36 itself tells you what was the core or fundamental part of the message of all the messengers sent.

[This is] a revelation of the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,

That you may warn a people whose forefathers were not warned, so they are unaware.
(36:5-6)

Originally posted by ishammad

(28:47) (This We have done) lest, when a calamity befalls them in consequence of their own misdeeds, 'they should say, "Our Lord, had You sent a messenger to us, we would have obeyed Your Revelations and been among the believers. "

Sending of Messengers

"This very thing has been presented at several places in the Qur'an as the reason for sending the Messengers, but it will not be correct to conclude from this that a Messenger should be sent on every occasion at every place for this purpose.

AS long as the message of a Prophet remains intact in the world and the means of conveying it to others exist, there is no need for a new Prophet, unless need arises to supplement the previous message, or to supplant it by a new message,

Nevertheless, when the teachings of the Prophets are forgotten, or become mixed up with errors and deviations and can no longer be relied upon as means of guidance, then the people do get a chance to make the excuse that there existed no arrangement whatever to make them aware of the distinction between the Truth and the untruth and guide them to the right way: so they could not be guided aright.

To meet such an excuse Allah sends the Prophets in such conditions so that any one who follows a wrong way after that may himself be held responsible for his going astray."
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: Yesterday at 4:00pm
OK, Ishammad, you've definitely presented an intellectual challenge with that post.

First, going back to [16:36] we had "and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers."

Am I misunderstanding that part of the verse? It sounds like Allah deliberately sends messengers to deceive.

Moving to [28:47]... one of my primary objections to Christianity and Islam is that they claim to be universal, yet the messages were sent to a tiny population. Clearly, any believer in God believes that God is capable of reaching everyone. So, according to this verse, the teachings are intact everywhere and whenever there's a lapse it is corrected by a new messenger.

For (the commentary on) 28:47 to make sense, we should see a succession of messengers where new messengers arrive when the message of a preceding prophet has been lost. In Islam, Adam was the first prophet and so begins the chain. The Quran identifies many messengers in order to fulfill this continuity.

So what was the state of the world when the messenger Muhammad appeared? We should infer that the message of the preceding prophet (Jesus) had been lost/mixed up/no longer reliable. This might make sense when limiting your view to Makkah but not when looking at the whole world. Either the chain beginning with Adam was broken throughout the world long before "corrupted Christianity" arrived in Arabia or there were many, many branches to the chain which were uncorrupted and not needing the corrections from a messenger.

I like the (Islamic) idea of messengers appearing throughout the world and throughout time. Given the diversity of beliefs in the world, you'd have to conclude that the messages are diverse and specific to the time and place of the messenger. I think you're re-enforcing my position of this being the proper view of Muhammad and my view that Islam is one path of many.
Dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: Today at 5:59am
Originally posted by Non Believer


I like the (Islamic) idea of messengers appearing throughout the world and throughout time. Given the diversity of beliefs in the world, you'd have to conclude that the messages are diverse and specific to the time and place of the messenger. I think you're re-enforcing my position of this being the proper view of Muhammad and my view that Islam is one path of many.


God's Divine messages to humanity since the time of Adam and Noah, peace be upon them, till the last revelation, always consisted of 2 parts:

1- Articles of Faith and Belief

2- Divine Law and rules believers should follow

We Muslims believe that all of God's prophets and messengers received and preached the same message of faith: belief in the One and Only true God, our Creator and the Creator and Sustainer of the whole universe.

Concerning Divine Law, while its basics are shared by all Abrahamic religions, some details of some rules did evolve over the centuries.

These changes were dictated by God to His messengers from His knowledge and wisdom, but the core belief in One God never changed.

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