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Non Believer  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Topic: Allah and His Messenger [9:1]
    Posted: 24 June 2017 at 2:35pm
The entire Quran is spoken by Muhammad, right? So in Surah 9 we see many, many times where he is speaking of himself in the phrase "Allah and His Messenger". We don't see this phrase in every Surah in the Quran.

As I understand it, this is one of the last Surahs to be revealed. Is it the case that this phrase does not appear in early Surahs but only in later Surahs? If so, when does this phrase (or similar) first appear?

Edited by Non Believer - 24 June 2017 at 2:36pm
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2017 at 9:48am
Muslims believe that the Qur'an are God's words, revealed to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

It is not Prophet Muhammad's words.


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2017 at 10:58am
My question is about the use of this particular phrase. Does it appear only in later Surah. This is hard for me to figure out since the Surahs are not in chronological order. I see the phrase in 2:279, but that verse might be from a later time. It appears throughout Surah 8 and 3:132. Was the phrase used prior to the Hijra? Prior to the Battle of Badr?

It appears to me that in the verses earlier than these, Muhammad is spoken of as one of a line of messengers. However, it seems that at some point in the chronology he becomes spoken of as "His/The Messenger".

Edited by Non Believer - 25 June 2017 at 10:59am
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2017 at 2:25pm
Yes, it was also used in the Makkan period

I found a statistical program on words in the Qur'an (in Arabic), and it gives a total of 58 results in 54 verses.

They are as follows:

- Chapter 2: 1 result (the verse you mentioned, 279)

- Chapter 4: 4 results

- Chapter 5: 3 results

- Chapter 7: 1 result (this chapter is Makkan)

- Chapter 8: 4 results

- Chapter 9: 13 results

- Chapter 24: 4 results

- Chapter 33: 7 results

- Chapter 48: 3 results

- Chapter 49: 3 results

- Chapter 57: 1 result

- Chapter 58: 5 results

- Chapter 59: 2 results

- Chapter 61: 1 result

- Chapter 64: 1 result

- Chapter 72: 1 result (this chapter is Makkan)


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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2017 at 5:24pm
Some more stats, according to some search engine:

"Allah and His messengers" appears 7 times in 6 verses

"His ِِAngels" appears 5 times in 5 verses.
"His ِِBooks" appears 3 times in 3 verses.
"His Messengers" appears 5 times in 5 verses.

"Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers" appears 2 times in 2 verses.

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (Qur'an 2:285)

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray. (Qur'an 4:136)



Edited by ishammad - 26 June 2017 at 10:15am
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2017 at 7:10pm
Thank you for the list, Al-Cordoby.

The usage I've been thinking about is "whoever obeys/disobeys Allah and His Messenger...." This seemed to me to be a significant shift in how The Messenger is viewed, that it, now the followers are expected to obey Muhammad. We don't see this commandment in the earlier verses where Muhammad is seen as one in a continuing line of messengers. My conjecture is that the tone has shifted now that Muhammad has real power.

I can't be the first person to notice this shift in language?

The only early verse with this usage is 72:23, and perhaps this verse is from a later time. According to Ishammad's link http://tanzil.net/docs/revelation_order, generally, there are individual verse which are thought to be from a later period. Perhaps this is one, too?

[72:23] But [I have for you] only notification from Allah, and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2017 at 7:30pm
Just a comment
"During the first 13 years of Islam, the main task of the Prophet (saws) was to call people to Islam based on the Qur'anic revelations that focused on the Oneness of Allah and righteous conduct."

The above paragraph isquoted from the same link "Revelation Order of the Qur'an".

In an early stage the prophet's audience was mainly polytheists, and to some extent, not familiar with the concept of prophets.

Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2017 at 4:40pm
Ishammad, it's the later stage that I'm curious about.

My view is that once Muhammad has achieved political and military power, he begins to demand personal loyalty.

In the verses which use the phrase "whoever obeys/disobeys Allah and His Messenger" how would the meaning be changed if it simply said "whoever obeys/disobeys Allah". This latter form I could read without discomfort. We all should obey natural laws. This is a universal concept in both theistic and atheistic communities.

However, the addition of requiring everyone to obey "the Messenger" adds a totalitarianism that I'm not at all comfortable with.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2017 at 5:08pm
You want to take "obey Allah" to mean obey natural laws and you want to forget about "and obey the Messenger" ?

I think obey Allah means to obey what Allah commands in His Book, and to obey His Messenger means to follow his Sunnah (prophetic way) "... And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from ... (59:7)"

This command is addressing the believers, and the Qur'an itself says obey the messenger as well.

What do you mean by we should obey natural laws?... accept or submit that if we move our hands up and down we will not fly?... (just joking here)

Now seriously, God wants us to accept more than that.



Edited by ishammad - 28 June 2017 at 5:11pm
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2017 at 5:52pm
Perhaps you aren't familiar with the Western concept of Natural Law. It has a long history first written down by the Greeks (Socrates, Plato and Aristotle). Their writing had a major influence on Christianity (and Islam, I'd assert). There are Christians who have directly advanced the theory (Thomas Aquinas, William of Ockham, and others) Natural Law is the foundation of secular constitutions; you only need to read the first couple of paragraphs of the US Declaration of Independence.

The wikipedia article also mentions Islamic scholars like Al-Ghazali and Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya. I don't know anything more about these men.

It is the learning of these people we're interested in, not the egos of the teachers.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2017 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

Ishammad, it's the later stage that I'm curious about.

My view is that once Muhammad has achieved political and military power, he begins to demand personal loyalty.

In the verses which use the phrase "whoever obeys/disobeys Allah and His Messenger" how would the meaning be changed if it simply said "whoever obeys/disobeys Allah". This latter form I could read without discomfort. We all should obey natural laws. This is a universal concept in both theistic and atheistic communities.

However, the addition of requiring everyone to obey "the Messenger" adds a totalitarianism that I'm not at all comfortable with.


I think there is a more logical, and common sense way to look at it:

In order to fear Allah, you must embrace and obey what the Messenger says. You can't believe and obey Muhammad's God if you dismiss Muhammad (saws).

There's also something else which I find to be miraculous about the Quran - that Allah (swt) Himself described in the Quran the behaviors of the hypocrites. The very same ones perhaps that renounced their Islam and dissolved all treaties they had with the Muslims. This relates to what you're asking because Allah in His infinite wisdom saw that Arabs happened to convert to Islam for the sake of having a treaty with an up and coming military power - not because they believed in Islam. So now they're being told not only to obey Allah (whom they perhaps didn't even believe in), but were also told to obey the Messenger - something they would have done in order to preserve the peace.

Ish also brings up good points about the type of audience being addressed.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2017 at 9:18pm
Okay, thanks for clarifying about Natural Law.

Well, not really totalitarianism, the prophet practiced consultation with the companions in number of occasions.

And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves... [Al-Qur'an 42:38]

But there is a distinction between a matter concerning which a revelation came, and a situation of consultation and hearing informed opinions and recommendations.

In addition to what I said above, It is also said that it means: obey Allah regarding what He makes forbidden for you and obey the Messenger regarding what he conveys to you. It is said that it means to obey Allah by testifying that He is the Lord and to obey the Prophet by testifying to his prophethood.


O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. [Al-Qur'an 4:59]

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful. [Al-Qur'an 4:64]

... And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification. [Al-Qur'an 24:54]

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. [Al-Qur'an 4:79]

Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2017 at 12:56am
I think you guys are pretty much supporting my view.

Surah 42 is from before Muhammad's military victory. In addition to the verse you quote, there's 42:51 "And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. "

Showing full deference to Allah.

4:42 "That Day, those who disbelieved and disobeyed the Messenger will wish they could be covered by the earth. And they will not conceal from Allah a [single] statement."

Muhammad now has authority in his own right.

Also, note that in 4:59 Muhammad has assumed final authority to judge matters. He's now the sole maker of laws and the final judge. That's the foundation of a totalitarian state. Where I live, we have a separation of the lawmakers and the judges.

There's a big difference between heeding the words of a prophet and being subservient to him. This difference can be seen easily by reading Surahs that were revealed early on compared to those revealed after the Battle of Badr.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2017 at 4:38am
One wonders if it would be possible to be obedient to God's law while disobedient to His Messenger?

Edited by Aviatrix - 29 June 2017 at 4:39am
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