Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Questions and Discussions about Islam
 Whyislam.org Forums : WhyIslam : Questions and Discussions about Islam
Message Icon Topic: Allah and His Messenger [9:1] Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 2
Author Message
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2017 at 9:24am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

One wonders if it would be possible to be obedient to God's law while disobedient to His Messenger?
That's not the point.

At some point, the Messenger became the message and started insisting that his follower obey him. He never did this while he didn't have the power to enforce obedience.

How can you not see it as significant when this man starts making statements like "Whoever disobeys me..."? Up until that time it was always "Whoever disobeys Allah ..." It's a big change. It doesn't bother you because of your confidence of this man's perfection. However, history is full of absolute leaders like this. Take a look around.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
ishammad  
Graduate
Graduate
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 2074
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2017 at 11:41am
NB, 42:51 is referring to an angel messenger. 4:51 .. "or that a messenger (an angel) be sent to him"

4:42 This is the case because Muhammad happened to be the messenger whom God appointed and chose to sent to the people to call them to believe in God, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, and to convey to them God's message and guidance that they need to obey and follow to the best of their abilities... with the glad tidings and warnings.
And this is also the case with every people with their messenger before prophet Muhammad was sent.

Muhammad judges matters by what Allah revealed to him, God taught him the Book and wisdom. and if he decided after consultation about a matter concerning which no revelation came yet, that is a different story and it will not be concerning the lawful and the unlawful.

"Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise." [Al-Qur'an 2:129]

The above verse is part of Abraham's supplication, peace be upon him.



Edited by ishammad - 29 June 2017 at 12:17pm
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
ishammad  
Graduate
Graduate
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 2074
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2017 at 4:55pm
The Makkan Phase
The Makkan phase of the revelation lasted about 13 years, from the first revelation up to the Hijrah.

This phase is determined by the prime task of the Prophet to call people to Islam. The main themes of this call, based on the Qur’anic revelation are:

* Allah and His unity (tawheed)
* The coming resurrection and judgment
* Righteous conduct

The role of the Prophet in this phase is in particular that of an announcer and warner.

The Madinan Phase
The Madinan phase lasted about 10 years, from the Hijrah to the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). While the basic themes of the Makkan phase remain, the factor of the Muslims’ growing together into a community and the formation of the Ummah, now makes its presence clearly felt.

In Madinah, there are four groups of people to be met:

* The Muhajirun (immigrants), who migrated from Makkah to Madinah
* The Ansar (helpers), who originated from Madinah and helped the Muhajirun
* The munafiqun (hypocrites), who are from Madinah and pretended to support the Muslims
* The Ahl Al-Kitab (People of the Book), that is, Jews and Christians, with their respective scriptures

In addition to these the Qur’an also continued to address an-nas (mankind), that is, all people, and referred to the disbelievers and ignorant ones.
.
.
Often there is internal evidence as to which part of the revelation is Makkan or Madinan. There are a number of guiding criteria that help to distinguish between them:

The theme: Does it belong to the Makkan or Madinan period? Among the Makkan themes are tawheed, shirk, Day of Resurrection, moral corruption, stories of the prophets. These topics are also found in Madinan surahs, but usually only touched upon briefly. Madinan themes that are not found in Makkan revelations are of social and legal implications, concerning marriage, divorce, inheritance, punishment, and so on.
...

Makkan and Madinan Revelations - By Ahmad Von Denffer

Ahmad Von Denffer was born in Germany in 1949. He is working with the Islamic Center, Munich, Germany. He has written various publications in different languages

Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Aviatrix  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
WhyIslam Forum Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 11488
Forum Rating: 123
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2017 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Aviatrix

One wonders if it would be possible to be obedient to God's law while disobedient to His Messenger?
That's not the point.

At some point, the Messenger became the message and started insisting that his follower obey him. He never did this while he didn't have the power to enforce obedience.

How can you not see it as significant when this man starts making statements like "Whoever disobeys me..."? Up until that time it was always "Whoever disobeys Allah ..." It's a big change. It doesn't bother you because of your confidence of this man's perfection. However, history is full of absolute leaders like this. Take a look around.


Does it bother you that the leadership role changes, and that laws come down later instead of earlier? Or just issues of faith and law both come from the same person?
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_Rock
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4521
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2017 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

One wonders if it would be possible to be obedient to God's law while disobedient to His Messenger?


Yes its possible. This is probably the single biggest problem with the prophetic model of islam.

In my estimation, depending on the lens, the sunnah of the prophet is useless at best or actually harmful to muslims.

Take the marriage of aisha at a young age to a man half a century older than her.

Without delving into the veracity of the tradition.

Its a common practice in the ME.

Is the sunnah good for us here?

Its actually so bad, that western muslims are constantly attempting to explain it away.

And this is the peaceful stuff.

The rape of POWs is far worse.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2017 at 5:51pm
My point is that in order to understand the context of Surahs, we must understand what Muhammad's position in society was and what his goals were at the time of the Surah's revelation. This is entirely normal when looking at the life of an individual. I don't have nearly the same perspective today that I had 40 years ago. I wish that the Quran was ordered in the sequence that the verses were revealed. It would be so much easier to understand the context and meaning of the text.

My view is that during the Makkan period, Muhammad's political position was weak and his goal was the development of a new religion that was in opposition to the superstitions of the polytheists. In other words, his goals were religious and spiritual. His new religion eliminated much of the ritualistic aspects of the prevailing religion though it still retained superstitious elements like the concept of a Hereafter where souls are absolutely condemned or absolutely rewarded.

Once in Madinah, his political position was initially still quite weak. As I understand it, Surah 2 Al-Baqarah was the first Surah in this period. Much of this Surah was directed towards the Children of Israel, showing how Islam is a natural continuation for them and how the coming battle is like the battle between David and Goliath. The question I ask myself is "how would this sermon have been received by the Children of Isreal?" It seems purely political and with a clear message to these people.

After that, there comes the Battle of Badr. Now his political position has been consolidated. He was no longer appealing to the Children of Israel but now his primary concern was keeping a tight grip on the territory under his control and on expanding his control. Again, these are political, not spiritual, goals.

Further to what The_Rock points out in his post, I believe that trying to find spiritual guidance from this later (political) period might actually be harmful, especially for western Muslims.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
ishammad  
Graduate
Graduate
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 2074
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2017 at 6:58pm
NB, There is a Quranic science known as Context/Causes of Revelation.

Here is the link I shared with you earlier. Many verses are covered here but not all.

Causes of Revelation: http://www.altafsir.com/AsbabAlnuzol.asp?SoraName=1&Ayah=0&search=yes&img=A&LanguageID=2

and here is a pdf copy Causes of Revelation - pdf copy

I hope it would be of some help.






Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Aviatrix  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
WhyIslam Forum Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 11488
Forum Rating: 123
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2017 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Aviatrix

One wonders if it would be possible to be obedient to God's law while disobedient to His Messenger?


Yes its possible. This is probably the single biggest problem with the prophetic model of islam.

In my estimation, depending on the lens, the sunnah of the prophet is useless at best or actually harmful to muslims.

Take the marriage of aisha at a young age to a man half a century older than her.

Without delving into the veracity of the tradition.

Its a common practice in the ME.

Is the sunnah good for us here?

Its actually so bad, that western muslims are constantly attempting to explain it away.

And this is the peaceful stuff.

The rape of POWs is far worse.


Are you suggesting Muslim men are compelled to marry girls 50 years younger than them, and if they do not do so, they are disobeying the Messenger?
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_Rock
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4521
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2017 at 6:13pm
I'm saying that the Sunnah is that this practice is acceptable.

Are you going to tell a man in the ME that it's abhorrent, despite the consensus on the matter as a Sunnat of the Rasul?

This Sunnat should be outlawed, so which Muslim is going to be able to do that?

If you can explain to me how this practice is beneficial to humanity I'd be interested to hear it.

Edited by The_Rock - 02 July 2017 at 6:17pm
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Aviatrix  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
WhyIslam Forum Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 11488
Forum Rating: 123
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2017 at 3:30am
Actually, my question was whether it was conceivable to obey God while disobeying the Messenger.

Is choosing a marital arrangement which is different than that of the Prophet's (saws) to Aisha (ra) even disobeying the Messenger?

Obviously it's not. So it really has nothing to do with my question, regardless of your opinion about it.

For clarification, "obedience" means that if the Messenger (saws) said Muslims must do something, then doing it is "obedience" while not doing it is "disobedience" in the broadest terms. Also, if he (saws) said Muslims must not do a thing, then doing it would be "disobedience" and abstaining would be "obedience."

Variation in cultural norms is irrelevant, unless there is some commandment over a particular, specific subject.


Edited by Aviatrix - 04 July 2017 at 3:34am
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_Rock
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4521
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2017 at 7:33am
I understand what you are saying.

My point is that Sunnah is massively problematic for the reasons I gave, and questionable as being divinely inspired.

So disobeying the messenger would be to disregard his actions as having authority where such actions are morally uncertain.

And for those reasons I also think Muslims ought to reconsider the role of the Sunnah as a source of the deen.

In essence, obeying the messenger (following his sunnah) is not obeying God.

In fact, in the cases I referenced, it is exactly the opposite, it would be disobeying God.

To my mind this is not even vaguely problematic for muslims because men are fallible, all men are equally fallible, including the prophet.

It is because muslims revere the prophet so much(attributing infallibility to him and all the others as well), that they find this idea reprehensible.

However, it is possible to be a strict islamic monotheist and not follow the sunnah.

Many muslims have made this argument in the past, its one that is worthy of more consideration.

Edited by The_Rock - 04 July 2017 at 9:51am
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
The_Rock
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4521
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2017 at 9:58am
I mean lets be plain here.

I have no objection to the teaching "worship only God"

Given that the messenger shows some morally unacceptable behavior, my contention is that the messenger need not be obeyed.

I can accept that message, regardless of who it is that tells me this.

The state of the messenger does not in any way change the value of the message.

However, you seem to be conflating the message with the messenger i.e. one cannot obey the message (from God) unless one obeys the messenger, and the message would not be self evident truth if the messenger were not the same.

So you would have to explain to me how, if the quran were revealed to a different person, it would be less valuable as the utterance of God because the person to whom it was revealed was different.

To my mind the message stands on its own.

The messenger is irrelevant, its as plain and simple as that.

Edited by The_Rock - 04 July 2017 at 11:40am
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2017 at 11:45am
In addition to what The_Rock is saying, there's also the question of whether everything that Muhammad said is "from Allah". Obeying His Messenger is quite different from obeying Allah.

I've also raised the question of the distinction between revealed messages and Muhammad's own thoughts in this thread which didn't receive much attention:

http://forum.whyislam.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=32120
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Shenango  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 3248
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2017 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

In addition to what The_Rock is saying, there's also the question of whether everything that Muhammad said is "from Allah"


Nobody ever said the Prophet (PBUH) never had an independent thought or action not inspired by God. All the prophets were men with their personal opinions, thoughts and actions.

Muslims only believe that the Prophet (PBUH) was inspired in his thoughts and actions having morality or an ethic. There is a concept in Islam called 'isma, or the infallibity of the prophets, whereby they were protected from immorality by God.

As Al-Cordoby noted with his list, Muslims were commanded to follow the Prophet (PBUH) from the earliest days. The difference with the move to Medina and the establishment of the first Muslim community was merely maturity.

It is easy to see things as purely about political power, but the Meccans had offered to make the Prophet (PBUH) their king if he would just stop preaching Islam. Naturally, he refused with his famous reply (do look it up if you have the time).

In the early days the Muslims were dependent on the Prophet (PBUH) for everything, not just because the faith was new but because of Meccan persecution. He was the end-all-be-all for any believer. In Medina the Muslims had room to be themselves and to interact more naturally with one another without the burden of persecution, secrecy and duress. Unity meant survival in those days.

This is where you see the communal verses start for the most part, and reminders to the Muslims of the centrality of the messenger as head of the community. Achieving unity here would take a little more effort because the former pressures were eased. And yes, the Muslims had to be reminded that accepting the Prophet's political leadership was part of accepting his spiritual leadership. There is nothing wrong with that.

You misunderstand it as an active concentration of secular power, whereas I see it more as the growing pains and maturing of the community and coming into its own.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 2
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.