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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Topic: Hadith Question: Fate of Past Nations?
    Posted: 31 August 2017 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

"Verily the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their
Prophets.(Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim)

Who were the people before you who were destroyed?
What were their excessive questions?
What was the disagreement?
Who were the prophets being referred to here?


These are 4 questions from part of a Hadith posted today on the Hadith thread, which says:

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said:

"Avoid that which I forbid you to do and do that which I command you to do to the best of your capacity.

Verily the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their Prophets.


(Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim)

These are 4 answers to the 4 questions


1- There are many nations in the past who refused to follow God's prophets and messengers.

Among them Pharaoh and his people, the people of Noah, peace be upon him, and many other nations.

2- The excessive questions were in some cases asking for too many details in general rulings.

One example in Islam which illustrates this related to Hajj:

Some of the companions asked Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, if they should perform Hajj each year.

He did not like that question, and this is the full context:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) delivered a speech and said,

"O people! Hajj (pilgrimage to the House of Allah) has been made incumbent upon you, so perform Hajj."

A man inquired: "O Messenger of Allah, is it prescribed every year?"

He (ﷺ) remained silent till the man repeated it thrice.

Then he (ﷺ) said,

"Had I replied in the affirmative, it would have surely become obligatory, and you would not have been able to fulfill it."

Afterwards he said,

"Do not ask me so long as I do not impose anything upon you, because those who were before you were destroyed on account of their frequent questioning and their disagreement with their Prophets.

So when I order you to do something, do it as far as you can; and when I forbid you from doing anything, eschew it.
"

(Sahih Muslim)

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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 4:39pm
3- What was the disagreement?

The disagreement of people from past nations were in similar cases: divine rulings conveyed by one of God's prophets, which caused disagreement among followers, some accepting and some rejecting

4- Who were the prophets being referred to here?

There were thousands of Prophets God sent to guide mankind after Adam, peace be upon him, till God's final messenger, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

This happened among the followers of many prophets throughout history, so it is not limited to 1 or 2 nations.

Hope that answers your questions?
 

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Non Believer  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 5:36pm
No, not at all!

You're saying that you can't point to a single instance of a disagreement that led to Divine destruction. And surely, no nation was ever destroyed because a follower was overly concerned about the details of a religious obligation, one on which his very salvation depended on!

Noah is not a good example. All that is known about it is what is retold in scriptures. Basically, it's a circular argument to use Muhammad's story as an example.

Pharaoh's destruction? Are you referring to the time of the Exodus? We know that the Ancient Egypt survived for centuries after the supposed time of Moses. The Jews had some stories of destruction in Egypt, but we know that the Egyptians were not destroyed.

And then, there were the many civilizations that rose and fell that you don't mention. Basically, many nations have been destroyed without Divine causes but you can't name one with a historical context which was destroyed on account of disobedience to a prophet.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 6:59pm
And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

And he was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us.

So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers.

(28:38-40)

Some other peoples:
51:31-44

54:9-42



Edited by ishammad - 31 August 2017 at 7:08pm
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Doris  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 7:03pm
I'm struck by Mohammed's outright refusal to answer direct questions directly. (reminds me of WI on some occasions), What's the purpose of such refusal other than to prevent being held to what one says?

"Can we got to the zoo?"

"Maybe."

Like that.
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Doris  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 7:12pm
Whatever the year of the Exodus, Egypt remained an entity for at least another thousand years.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Doris

I'm struck by Mohammed's outright refusal to answer direct questions directly. (reminds me of WI on some occasions), What's the purpose of such refusal other than to prevent being held to what one says?

"Can we got to the zoo?"

"Maybe."

Like that.


Doris, sometimes some posters here remind me of some of those who used to listen to Jesus (peace be upon him); how they were alerted, awaiting and eager to hear a word that they can, in any way, use as serious accusation.

Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 8:04pm
OK. So my interpretation of this Hadith seems to be correct:

Muhammad is telling the people (followers or not) that they had better obey him because, as he's mentioned to them before, there are stories of people from well over a thousand years before who are said to have been destroyed when they did not listen to a prophet. The people are being told that questioning and disagreement are high crimes.

I wonder whose destruction he was preparing for when he said this.

In the modern context, I could see a Muhammadan reading this and believing that simple non-specific disagreement with Islam would be grounds for destruction.
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2017 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

The people are being told that questioning and disagreement are high crimes.


You don't see the religious context of questioning and disagreement here because I think your atheism gives you blind spots here. The prophets (including Muhammad (PBUH)) were sent by God as a mercy and guidance to mankind. Excessive questioning and disagreement with them can then rightfully be seen as more or less disputing and a 'soft' or underhanded rejection of God and His message.

One of the most prominent peoples mentioned in the Qur'an and elsewhere as particularly uncooperative with their prophets haven't even been mentioned here: the Children of Israel and later Jews. They were indeed destroyed and scattered from their inheritance in the Holy Land to various cursed fates they've sustained over the centuries.

Originally posted by Non Believer

In the modern context, I could see a Muhammadan reading this and believing that simple non-specific disagreement with Islam would be grounds for destruction.


Two thoughts:

1) It would be false to extrapolate a general disfavor of disagreement and dissent in Islam. Muslim scholars debate and argue all the time, and offer many varying opinions of every shade and no one person has the honor of speaking for the whole ummah nowadays. Such a spirit of dialogue is encouraged as long as we're genuinely seeking answers to pertinent issues.

What are rightfully discouraged in Islam are two things:

1) frivolous debate over issues of little to no practical significance

2) legalism, or dwelling incessantly on details of the correctness of an action

My second (2) and final thought to you is that this line of reasoning based on limited knowledge and/or understanding of the Islamic texts and little to no contact with actual Muslim practice and thinking is dangerous and has the potential for numerous unforced bad conclusions.

Just because you understand or think Muslims ought to understand a Hadith or Qur'anic verse a certain way with your limited knowledge of Islam and limited interaction with Muslims, it doesn't mean they actually do.

One of the Qur'anic verses that non-Muslims fear the most is 9:5, the so-called "sword verse"...which they have often misunderstood as calling for wholesale slaughter of all non-Muslims. Clearly, Muslims have not understood it that way over the centuries and even terrorists almost never use it for justification of their actions, much to the surprise of non-Muslims.

So, my message is simply: expectation does not equal reality. The key to avoiding such bad conclusions is to engage with Muslims and their thought processes, rather than dictating to them how their thoughts ought to be according to your perspective.

Edited by Shenango - 31 August 2017 at 11:26pm
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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Non Believer  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 01 September 2017 at 9:47am
OK. So it was the Jews who were destroyed in Roman times because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their prophets.

Clearly, they disagreed with the claim of Jesus to be the Son of God. So this was the cause of their destruction that Muhammad was referring to?

I simply trying to make some sense out of why Muhammad would have said this and, more to the point, why Muslims continue to repeat it. Surely, no Muslim today believes that people are literally destroyed "ONLY because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their Prophets." Is this how you explain the destruction of Bangladesh with a flood of Noaic proportion?

You accuse me of having the blind spot, but it is you who has the blind spot. Can you imagine if someone today proclaimed:
I am a prophet.
People before you were destroyed for disagreeing with their prophet.
Do as I command or you will be destroyed.

Frightening isn't it? It has nothing to do with atheism; most theists would object to such a proclamation, too.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 01 September 2017 at 12:11pm
NB, just a couple of comments.


I quoted verse 28:40 above because you said "but we know that the Egyptians were not destroyed" so I shared the verse which says (interpretation of the meaning): "So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea."

And I included references to other verses mentioning examples of peoples who were punished, because I mistakenly thought this is what you were asking for when you said: "but you can't name one (nation/people) with a historical context which was destroyed on account of disobedience to a prophet."

Moreover, I think "destroyed" in this hadith, can also include self-destroying attitude.

Certainly, Jesus (pbuh) was not rejected ("disagreed with") because he claimed divinity, because he would never do such a thing, nor because he used the phrase "son of God" in the literal sense. what if these are just false accusations and deliberate twisting and misunderstanding some people used to justify their rejection for what their souls desires not, and their false saying and stance that he is not one sent by or approved of God.
in short, falsifying, inspite of the MIRACLES many people witnessed?

I think, when someone is determined to say that there is something wrong with anything he hears or reads, he can manage to come up with something negative to say, most of the time.



Edited by ishammad - 01 September 2017 at 12:28pm
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 01 September 2017 at 3:22pm
Ishammad, you still leave me grasping for an example to support this hadith.

Going back to Moses is unconvincing. Moses was never a prophet to the Egyptians so they cannot be blamed for "their excessive questioning and their disagreement". Notwithstanding other problems like the fact that the revelations to Moses coming AFTER said destruction. And, furthermore, is the Egyptian "destruction" mentioned in Egyptian chronicles? A death of a Pharaoh in this manner not even mentioned? Instead, you rely on a source written many, many hundreds of years after the event.

If you want to use the Roman period Jews as an example, then elaborate on the "excessive questioning and disagreement" that you accuse them of.

And then, there are so many nations which never received revelations that Muhammad mentions which fell so how is "their excessive questioning and their disagreement" a credible explanation for destruction?

Give me place, time, and reason, please.

Are you able to distinguish destructive events in the time since Muhammad which were "only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their
Prophets.?

I am not determined to say that there is something wrong. However, I depend on evidence to show when something is right. When a political leader says "Believe me!", it's time to pay close attention to the evidence.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 01 September 2017 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

OK. So it was the Jews who were destroyed in Roman times because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their prophets.


Yes, the "people before you" who disagreed with their prophets are the Jews. I don't agree with the other examples that other Muslims have thrown out there, and you have some right to be frustrated with their apparent inaccuracy (because they are inaccurate).

Pharaoh and Noah's nation don't directly relate to the context of this hadith because the Prophet (PBUH) is referring to people who have tentatively believed, but after they became believers, they still gave their prophets a hard time with excessive disputation over matters of faith and legalism over matters of practice. Pharaoh and Noah's nations never believed and rejected God and his prophets from the get-go. Such cases don't apply here.

I realize now that I threw in there a line about the scattering of the Jews from the Holy Land. This was only after their rejection of Jesus (AS), thus possibly contributing to that inaccuracy. So I do apologize for any confusion. Wholesale rejection of prophets is not what is being referred to here.

Originally posted by Non Believer

I simply trying to make some sense out of why Muhammad would have said this


Because the Muslims were getting hung up on irrelevant details and straying into legalism. All he meant to say here is "Keep it simple, folks". You know, like get back to the basics and stop quibbling.

Originally posted by Non Believer

Do as I command or you will be destroyed.


It's not like that, NB. The Prophet (PBUH) already had their loyalty, so there was no question of whether they would ultimately do it or not. It was just a question of whether they would make a federal case out of it in doing it, or not.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 01 September 2017 at 4:30pm
"This was only after their rejection of Jesus (AS)"

Yes, I understood that. Please say on...

Muhammad also rejects the story of Jesus that was being told at the time of the destruction of the Second Temple. What exactly are those Jews accused of?
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