Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Questions and Discussions about Islam
 Whyislam.org Forums : WhyIslam : Questions and Discussions about Islam
Message Icon Topic: Hadith question -- hungry birds Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 3 Next >>
Author Message
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27585
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 7:10am
Originally posted by Non Believer

The problem for me may be the translation. There are a number of ambiguities in the hadith, as presented. I don't see "best effort" in the Hadith.


The hadith was said by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, in Arabic.

The verb Tawakkul is explained in many Islamic texts, and that's what is means: do you best effort and trust in God and rely on Him.

By the way, there are surely many guidelines and teachings that are also in Judaism and Christianity, as we Muslims believe that the three religions we revealed by our same God and Creator.

So no problem there ...

Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
ishammad  
Graduate
Graduate
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 2067
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 10:23am
Indeed, Qarun was from the people of Moses, but he tyrannized them. And We gave him of treasures whose keys would burden a band of strong men; thereupon his people said to him, "Do not exult. Indeed, Allah does not like the exultant.

But seek, through that which Allah has given you, the home of the Hereafter; and [yet], do not forget your share of the world. And do good as Allah has done good to you. And desire not corruption in the land. Indeed, Allah does not like corrupters."

He said, "I was only given it because of knowledge I have."...
(28:76-78)

Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 10:36am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

By the way, there are surely many guidelines and teachings that are also in Judaism and Christianity
And humanism, too?

That's the question I'm asking about this particular Hadith. Is there a real world, rational way to understand this hadith, or does it reflect a superstitious belief of an unscientific people? Do Muslims understand it in a literal sense or in a more indirect sense?

Other questions have now arisen. We currently live in a world where powerful people are exploiting division rather than attempting to unify. I find this a horrifying trend. What I've just quoted you indicates a perception of a unity, however, the Muslim posters in this forum generally refuse to embrace this unity and prefer, instead, to divide. Why is it so difficult for any Muslim here to agree with the simple fact that the verses in Matthew not only convey the same fundamental message as the Hadith, but that non-Arabs who do not understand the nuance of this particular Arabic word would find the verses from Matthew more useful in teaching this message?

My answer to this question is simple: Islam seeks to divide. Muslim posters have explicitly stated this in other threads. The Quran is full of divisive texts that are used to separate themselves from the peoples around them in those times. The concept of Ummah is both unifying and divisive.

In researching my posts for this thread, I discovered an interesting fact: The official motto of the USA "In God We Trust" only became the official motto in 1956. This declaration was part of the anti-communist campaign of the 1950's. Since the USSR promoted state atheism, the USA used the name of God to separate themselves from the communists. Humanists, who have very little in common with Stalinists, were caught in this same net. This is a major source of the bigotry against humanism.

It's ironic that it was Shenango's claim that this Hadith had no parallel in the New Testament that led me to this discovery. Rather then using this Hadith to divide, won't you please try to use it to unify? Let's not let "In God We Trust" be a rallying cry for bigots.

Edited by Non Believer - 28 September 2017 at 10:38am
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 11:24am
Originally posted by ishammad

Indeed, Qarun was from the people of Moses, but he tyrannized them. And We gave him of treasures whose keys would burden a band of strong men; thereupon his people said to him, "Do not exult. Indeed, Allah does not like the exultant.

But seek, through that which Allah has given you, the home of the Hereafter; and [yet], do not forget your share of the world. And do good as Allah has done good to you. And desire not corruption in the land. Indeed, Allah does not like corrupters."

He said, "I was only given it because of knowledge I have."...
(28:76-78)
My question about the story of Qarun, beyond these few verses, is whether you read the story literally or metaphorically?

When was a rich and powerful man literally destroyed before our eyes?

28:81 "And We caused the earth to swallow him and his home. And there was for him no company to aid him other than Allah, nor was he of those who [could] defend themselves."

Edited by Non Believer - 28 September 2017 at 11:25am
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Doris  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Religion: Agnostic(Agnostic)
Posts: 185
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 11:29am
"By the way, there are surely many guidelines and teachings that are also in Judaism and Christianity, as we Muslims believe that the three religions we revealed by our same God and Creator.

So no problem there ..."

I have a problem. Why couldn't this omnipotent creator get it right the first time?

What's with all the Asian and Native American religions? If this creator has a final word, why not reveal it millennia ago throughout the world?
History Buff
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 1:45pm
We've been down this rabbit hole a number of times. I'll explain it to you how I understand it and that will give our Muslim friends a way to see what our problem is.

The Jews and the Christians were given proper guidance, however, they wantonly falsified their scriptures. There are many examples of this corruption cited in the Quran itself, like the story of the crucifixion. The All-Mighty then revealed the same message to Muhammad for it to be spread uncorrupted throughout the whole world. This message has been carefully preserved and remains the Truth. So the real question is not why the omnipotent didn't get it right the first time, but, rather, how did he fail to preserve it the first time but then succeeded with the Muslims.

I wish I knew more about Asian and American beliefs, or that there was someone commenting from that perspective. Muhammad never spoke about Americans, so what can we conclude about the relationship between Islam and their culture?
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27585
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Doris

"By the way, there are surely many guidelines and teachings that are also in Judaism and Christianity, as we Muslims believe that the three religions we revealed by our same God and Creator.

So no problem there ..."

I have a problem. Why couldn't this omnipotent creator get it right the first time?

What's with all the Asian and Native American religions? If this creator has a final word, why not reveal it millennia ago throughout the world?


God revealed His guidance to mankind since the time of Adam throughout the centuries and in doing so He sent thousands of prophets and messengers to different people and nations.

The Divine Message never changed: belief in the One and Only true Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

What did evolve from one era to the next were some details in the Divine Law, as the human race matured going from one stage to the next, and His Guidance to all believers was very clear:

The message you receive from the latest prophet supersedes the previous revelation, till the message of God's last prophet and messengers, which is the final revelation for all mankind till the end of time.

Muslims believe that God's last prophet and messenger was Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and that the Qur'an is God's last divine guidance for all of humanity.
 

Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2017 at 3:08pm
I feel like this thread is getting diverted...

Can you tell me, please, how literally do you embrace the concept of "trust in God" and everything you need will be provided to you? It appears in one form or another in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I wish I could say about other religions and cultures.

If you understand the concept as a literal truth, then how do you explain the millions and millions of people who live in such desperate need?

If it is not a literal concept, then what meaning does it actually have? Can it be interpreted in any meaningful way by an atheist?
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27585
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2017 at 6:14am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Can it be interpreted in any meaningful way by an atheist?


Sure ...

But the atheist who wants to do that would first have to believe in God



Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2017 at 1:23pm
You have done well, Al-Cordoby, to convince me of the uselessness of your religion. You don't seem to be worried about the fundamental contradiction in which you claim that your religion is universal and is for everyone, yet, for those of us who are unable to believe in your God, you admit that it has no meaning at all.

While I'm sure you can find exceptions, there are few atheists who ever "find God". One thing an atheist is good at is accepting reality for what it is... and the reality is that it's extremely unlikely that I would ever cease being an atheist. You need to adopt this fact into your life view and be able to deal with the problems it creates in that view. If you live in the West, and as the stigma of atheism is quashed, you will find yourself surrounded more and more by people who are openly atheists. This is the emerging society. Only in the USA, are there radical Christian forces trying to drag their country back into the Dark Ages. This poses an interesting challenge for Muslim-Americans. Will they side with Christians to defeat the inevitable dominance of secularism?

Before you dismiss this as an anti-Theist rant, I must remind you that I find much value in reading the lessons in the New Testament. The verses of Matthew which I quoted earlier in this thread can have much meaning even to an atheist.

That's a big difference between the two.

I'm disappointed that it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion about this difference; that it is impossible for you to comprehend the perspective of the millions of people around you who do not believe in your God; and that there can be no way to find a common ground because of your unwillingness to open your mind to ideas outside of Islam, even the Bible.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27585
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2017 at 3:38pm
Dear NB

Each individual is free to believe or disbelieve in God.

I have no problem at all with that.

(For you is your religion, and for me is my religion) (Qur'an, 109:6)

It's a free world, and we Muslims believe that God, our Creator, has given each human being to choose.

So what is your problem exactly?

Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2017 at 4:02pm
Are you able to accept as fact that I am not free to "choose" to believe in your God? That if I said that I believed in your God, I'd be a Hypocrite?
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Doris  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Religion: Agnostic(Agnostic)
Posts: 185
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2017 at 4:22pm
What did evolve from one era to the next were some details in the Divine Law, as the human race matured going from one stage to the next, and His Guidance to all believers was very clear:The message you receive from the latest prophet supersedes the previous revelation"

"as the human race has matured"?

What the heck does that mean? Matured in what way?

My idea of maturation would include the same human rights for everyone and a whole lot less war and killing and stealing and....

What's yours?

Are we perhaps due for another 'messenger'?


History Buff
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27585
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2017 at 4:11am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Are you able to accept as fact that I am not free to "choose" to believe in your God? That if I said that I believed in your God, I'd be a Hypocrite?


In order to say you believe in God, you should first be convinced that God exists.

And that's an intellectual journey of research, thought and reflection which should continue till reaching a conclusive answer.

Rome was not build in one day ...

Was it?

Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 3 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.