Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Current Events
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : Current Events
Message Icon Topic: Las Vegas Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 3 Next >>
Author Message
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5126
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Topic: Las Vegas
    Posted: 04 October 2017 at 2:26am
My heart's truly broken for all those innocent people that were killed.

I'm sad that no one thought it worthwhile to bring up. I'm supposing since the man to commit the deadliest mass shooting in the US wasn't a Muslim or an Islamic sympathizer.

But events like this are a reminder to me that we can go at any time, at even the most random moments, and that not only is life precious, but that our belief in the Hereafter should be of the utmost importance for us.

Also, how do we stop sick maniacs like these (including the sick maniacs who do the very same thing but pretend it's for religion they do it)? It's not just gun laws. We need to do more. But what?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Doris  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Religion: Agnostic(Agnostic)
Posts: 182
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2017 at 10:19am
This is a terrible tragedy..

What I've been pondering is the cowardliness of those people who will not face their 'enemies' but will kill only the helpless and unsuspecting. Guns, knives, explosives, and vehicles give the mass murderer an unfair advantage over his victims.

My conclusion is that there are people who just love to kill other people. They fantasize about doing so until they just have to give it a go.

I hate them all.
History Buff
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4207
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2017 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Magister



I'm sad that no one thought it worthwhile to bring up. I'm supposing since the man to commit the deadliest mass shooting in the US wasn't a Muslim or an Islamic sympathizer.


Magister would it be fair of me to say perhaps you thought to raise it up only because it WASN'T an Muslim or Islamic sympathiser..

I and other non Muslims here could cite several fairly recent attacks that were indeed carried out by people who were not psychotic but religiously motivated Muslims and Islamic sympathizers.

'The Eagles of death metal' concert, the Arianna Grande concert in Manchester that targeted young kids. The Barcelona attack that killed 13 and left hundreds terribly injured by mowing people down using a van just to name a recent few. None of these attacks were raised here by non Muslims to make any particular point. In fact what was the last terrorist atrocity caused by Muslims that you did cite here for discussion ? I cannot remember the last Islamic daily terrorist incident that was raised here because they are so commonplace. For it appears mass murder is only a discussion point on here when it's been committed by a 'normal' psycho unaffiliated with islam and is raised as a means to place Ilmic terrorism as no different when as I said just on the other thread here you have imams who can openly a call for the genocide of America and Europe from Islam's third holiest site unimpeded and free to continue about his ways... If your asking how can we stop the atrocities perhaps it's time for the 'ummah' to at least do its part in aknowledging what such speeches themselves inspire people to do. But that's never going to happen because within the Ummah there is either support or plain indifference to such rhetoric.

People like the Vegas shooter haven't been incentivised by hate mongers promising rewards in the next life for their 'bravery'. They simply decide within their own head that people will die by their hand due to their own phsychotic warped view of the world.

Edited by Damo808 - 04 October 2017 at 10:56am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2017 at 11:09am
We don't know yet what the motivation was; we may never know. One thing we can say is that the carnage would've been limited if it had been impossible for the perpetrator to acquire his massive arsenal. Other places have faced attackers like this but never suffered this devastation.

Because there are legitimate uses for knives in our community, it is impossible to keep them out of the hands of violent people. There's no need in a peaceful society for the sort of weapons and magazines used in Las Vegas.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5126
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2017 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Magister



I'm sad that no one thought it worthwhile to bring up. I'm supposing since the man to commit the deadliest mass shooting in the US wasn't a Muslim or an Islamic sympathizer.


Magister would it be fair of me to say perhaps you thought to raise it up only because it WASN'T an Muslim or Islamic sympathiser..

I and other non Muslims here could cite several fairly recent attacks that were indeed carried out by people who were not psychotic but religiously motivated Muslims and Islamic sympathizers.

'The Eagles of death metal' concert, the Arianna Grande concert in Manchester that targeted young kids. The Barcelona attack that killed 13 and left hundreds terribly injured by mowing people down using a van just to name a recent few. None of these attacks were raised here by non Muslims to make any particular point. In fact what was the last terrorist atrocity caused by Muslims that you did cite here for discussion ? I cannot remember the last Islamic daily terrorist incident that was raised here because they are so commonplace. For it appears mass murder is only a discussion point on here when it's been committed by a 'normal' psycho unaffiliated with islam and is raised as a means to place Ilmic terrorism as no different when as I said just on the other thread here you have imams who can openly a call for the genocide of America and Europe from Islam's third holiest site unimpeded and free to continue about his ways... If your asking how can we stop the atrocities perhaps it's time for the 'ummah' to at least do its part in aknowledging what such speeches themselves inspire people to do. But that's never going to happen because within the Ummah there is either support or plain indifference to such rhetoric.

People like the Vegas shooter haven't been incentivised by hate mongers promising rewards in the next life for their 'bravery'. They simply decide within their own head that people will die by their hand due to their own phsychotic warped view of the world.


They're one and the same in my book (and in the books of other experts as well).

It's intellectually lazy to just sum up motivations to something as trivial as religion.

Anyway, you're set in your ways, so not expecting to see you budge in any manner.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Corinna  
Graduate
Graduate

Religion: Judaism(Orthodox)
Posts: 2184
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2017 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

We don't know yet what the motivation was; we may never know. One thing we can say is that the carnage would've been limited if it had been impossible for the perpetrator to acquire his massive arsenal. Other places have faced attackers like this but never suffered this devastation.

Because there are legitimate uses for knives in our community, it is impossible to keep them out of the hands of violent people. There's no need in a peaceful society for the sort of weapons and magazines used in Las Vegas.


True, true, true.  TY, NB for believing. 
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5126
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2017 at 12:07am
Originally posted by Non Believer

We don't know yet what the motivation was; we may never know. One thing we can say is that the carnage would've been limited if it had been impossible for the perpetrator to acquire his massive arsenal. Other places have faced attackers like this but never suffered this devastation.

Because there are legitimate uses for knives in our community, it is impossible to keep them out of the hands of violent people. There's no need in a peaceful society for the sort of weapons and magazines used in Las Vegas.


There's still a legitimate need for guns.

However, I do think that the types of guns that we have legal are a bit too excessive.

Whatever happened to muskets and those one-shot-forever-to-reload guns that our founding fathers used?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2017 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Magister

There's still a legitimate need for guns.
Really? In my years, I've never been in a situation where I wished I had a gun. Don't know anyone who's ever been in such a situation. I can't think of a situation where holding a gun wouldn't put me at greater risk of harm. This is normal for civilised countries.
Originally posted by Magister

Whatever happened to muskets and those one-shot-forever-to-reload guns that our founding fathers used?
Exactly, your constitution should only protect the right to carry the weapons of its day. At least roll back to the six-shooter revolver days... not that long ago.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Doris  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Religion: Agnostic(Agnostic)
Posts: 182
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2017 at 11:53am
I've been in a situation where I wished I had a gun, not that I would have known how to use it.

I was a high school teacher for many years.The school was infested with drug dealers, many of whom were not even students at the school, but we had no security, because that might make us look like we needed security, if you get the point.

I received many death threats, including bullets left on my desk by unknown parties.

My biggest fear was walking into one of their drug deals. Sometimes I was warned. "If you come in here I'll kill you," from a boys' bathroom I was guarding from the outside, per instructions.

I knew many of the kids had guns in their cars because they talked about it.

I retired shortly before Columbine, but it came as no surprise to me.
History Buff
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2017 at 2:24pm
And if you had had a gun, how would it have played out differently?

Has our civil society deteriorated to the point that people, high school kids specifically, will shoot an unarmed person? Is an angry kid waving a gun more likely to shoot an unarmed person knowing that he might "get away with it" or would he shoot an armed person knowing that he had to get the first shot in?

The "soft target" argument that you hear from gun advocates is so bogus, unless you have degenerated into a society of random violence and you have shootouts as a "normal" activity. How much worse would the carnage in Las Vegas have been if the concertgoers were heavily armed and carrying assault rifles? That's the answer?
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5126
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2017 at 5:18pm
I think I can agree with a revolver for every law-abiding citizen.

Guns are necessary for many people. For people like you, NB, maybe not. But owning firearms is part of the US Constitution and it's our right. The Constitution doesn't even say that people could have it if they "need" to have it - the right isn't based on need. Some people just love guns. They have gun clubs, gun magazines, gunsmith courses you can take online or in the mail or at a local community college, you can buy customized guns, gun stands and displays, and so much more. You can buy guns just for the heck of it - that's the beauty of being an American. But the downside to that is that as technology advances, guns become far more deadly and far less controllable.

I don't mind rifles and revolvers - that should be a reasonable limit on firearms while still leaving that right for all American citizens (and only American citizens).
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2017 at 3:31pm
You ought to read the constitution. The "right" is indeed based on a "need"; the need is clearly stated in the 2nd amendment. Using the 2nd amendment as an argument out of this context leads to absurd thinking. Americans should understand the rationale before proclaiming their "right".

The 2nd amendment wasn't revealed by God; it can be changed to reflect what is needed in contemporary society. There are many countries where gun ownership is accepted but few of which are as unregulated as the USA.

The rest of the world can only watch in stunned amazement.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5126
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2017 at 12:37am
NB, the Constitution is saying that the necessity is in the militia, not in the right itself to bear arms.

Originally posted by The Second Amendment


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


The Constitution did not use language that would lead us to believe that only "certain types" of arms were our God-given rights.

However, I agree in that these are not directed by God, and that modifications can and should be made to this even further so that the amendment becomes more practical and realistic than it now is.

I really like the idea of slow-shooting rifles (for hunting game or sports), and revolvers (for self-defense, security purposes). I just wish the rest of the country can get on board with this.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2017 at 2:56am
Yes, that is what I was referring to, bearing in mind that in this context "militia" refers to a military force under state authority and composed of citizens (free, white and male). It was not a private army.

I don't understand how constitutional scholars nor high courts have failed to clarify that the only right granted by the 2nd amendment is the right to possess (indeed, an obligation to possess) a weapon for service to militias that act in accordance with federal and state laws governing militias.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Page  of 3 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.