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Non Believer  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Topic: Who represents Islam?
    Posted: 09 October 2017 at 1:18pm
In reference to Shaykh Ibn Baaz, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia from 1993 until his death in 1999:
Originally posted by you know who you are

It doesn't change the fact that you're choosing a sheikh that has very extreme views to paint a picture of "Islam"... he even considered anyone who disagreed to be a disbeliever - a stance that's not a part of mainstream Islam.

You used his views to paint a picture of Islam. You went to the fringe.
First, how is a Grand Mufti "elected", generally, and in Saudi Arabia, specifically?

Who are the "top officials" in Islam whose rulings are respected by less-than-knowledgeable Muslims?

What does it take to get a Grand Mufti branded as "extreme" or "fringe"? Does anyone have the authority to insult a Grand Mufti in this way?

I would assume that this particular Grand Mufti's knowledge of Islam far exceeds the knowledge of anyone posting here and that his rulings would be soundly based in Qur'an, Sunnah, and Fiqh. How is it possible for a ruling using traditional Islamic practices be described as "fringe"?
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2017 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

In reference to Shaykh Ibn Baaz, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia from 1993 until his death in 1999:
Originally posted by you know who you are

It doesn't change the fact that you're choosing a sheikh that has very extreme views to paint a picture of "Islam"... he even considered anyone who disagreed to be a disbeliever - a stance that's not a part of mainstream Islam.

You used his views to paint a picture of Islam. You went to the fringe.
First, how is a Grand Mufti "elected", generally, and in Saudi Arabia, specifically?

Who are the "top officials" in Islam whose rulings are respected by less-than-knowledgeable Muslims?

What does it take to get a Grand Mufti branded as "extreme" or "fringe"? Does anyone have the authority to insult a Grand Mufti in this way?

I would assume that this particular Grand Mufti's knowledge of Islam far exceeds the knowledge of anyone posting here and that his rulings would be soundly based in Qur'an, Sunnah, and Fiqh. How is it possible for a ruling using traditional Islamic practices be described as "fringe"?


A Mufti office (a Mufti alone cannot make a ruling) in Egypt for example may make a ruling and it is only binding to their own people, not me in Singapore.

I have my own Mufti in my country.

I lol at your 'you know who you are'.

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Non Believer  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2017 at 2:27pm
I was going to open a new thread to discuss this hadith, but it fits into this question. The new question would've been "Ask who?"
Originally posted by Traveller

Allow me to share a story that took place in the lifetime of our Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. which serves as evidence on the importance of practicing the teachings of Islam based on knowledge and understanding. Once, a companion (Sahabah) of the Prophet s.a.w. suffered a grievous wound whilst he was travelling. He was then in a state of janabah. He sought the opinions of several other companions who were travelling with him if he should be performing ghusl or was there any other means of purification which were better suited for his condition. The companion who was with him told him to perform ghusl as he was under the impression that there was no concession on the matter. He then proceeded to perform ghusl, which inevitably caused his death. When news of his death reached Rasulullah s.a.w., the Prophet s.a.w. became very angry and said: “Why did they not ask when they didn’t know the answer for sure. Surely the medicine for ignorance is by asking!” In fact, when wounded, it is sufficient for one to perform tayammum and wash the remaining parts which are unharmed. [Hadith reported by Imam Abu Daud].
In this hadith, the wounded man seeks the opinions of those around him. When he doesn't receive the correct answer the Prophet becomes angry that they didn't ask him since he is the who knows the answer for sure.

Now that the Prophet is dead (this is not breaking news), all that Muslims can do is ask those around them. Yet, "you know who you are" is able to proclaim that the answer given by this Shaykh, who is as learned as just about any Muslim, should not be considered.

The fault of the companions is not that they didn't ask; it is that they didn't ask the right person. Yet, since the time of the Prophet, there is no absolute authority for legal questions. Hasn't this hadith "expired" and don't Muslims have to open their minds to the outside world for cures for their ignorance?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2017 at 4:02am
Originally posted by Non Believer

I was going to open a new thread to discuss this hadith, but it fits into this question. The new question would've been "Ask who?"
Originally posted by Traveller

Allow me to share a story that took place in the lifetime of our Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. which serves as evidence on the importance of practicing the teachings of Islam based on knowledge and understanding. Once, a companion (Sahabah) of the Prophet s.a.w. suffered a grievous wound whilst he was travelling. He was then in a state of janabah. He sought the opinions of several other companions who were travelling with him if he should be performing ghusl or was there any other means of purification which were better suited for his condition. The companion who was with him told him to perform ghusl as he was under the impression that there was no concession on the matter. He then proceeded to perform ghusl, which inevitably caused his death. When news of his death reached Rasulullah s.a.w., the Prophet s.a.w. became very angry and said: “Why did they not ask when they didn’t know the answer for sure. Surely the medicine for ignorance is by asking!” In fact, when wounded, it is sufficient for one to perform tayammum and wash the remaining parts which are unharmed. [Hadith reported by Imam Abu Daud].
In this hadith, the wounded man seeks the opinions of those around him. When he doesn't receive the correct answer the Prophet becomes angry that they didn't ask him since he is the who knows the answer for sure.

Now that the Prophet is dead (this is not breaking news), all that Muslims can do is ask those around them. Yet, "you know who you are" is able to proclaim that the answer given by this Shaykh, who is as learned as just about any Muslim, should not be considered.

The fault of the companions is not that they didn't ask; it is that they didn't ask the right person. Yet, since the time of the Prophet, there is no absolute authority for legal questions. Hasn't this hadith "expired" and don't Muslims have to open their minds to the outside world for cures for their ignorance?


'Asking who' in that case is an escalation scenario. You just go to the next person higher up in that context, be it in higher in knowledge or in authority.

We have today two opposing opinions as to the archaic Law of some Muslim countries. One says it's untouchable while the other says wait a minute and let's look at it again.

This is for learned people to fight it out. I have my popcorn ready.


Edited by Traveller - 14 October 2017 at 4:03am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2017 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Traveller

'Asking who' in that case is an escalation scenario. You just go to the next person higher up in that context, be it in higher in knowledge or in authority.
Sure. Nothing novel about that idea. It's up to the person asking the question to decide whether he should be satisfied with an answer or whether he should seek another opinion.   So why did the Prophet become very angry when there was a simple error in judgement?
Originally posted by Traveller

We have today two opposing opinions as to the archaic Law of some Muslim countries. One says it's untouchable while the other says wait a minute and let's look at it again.
Do you think these two views can co-exist? How does the first group view the second group? Why are there no representatives of this second group in this forum?
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2017 at 4:05am
The question of this tread is a good question, NB

And there is actually a lot of research done in the US and Europe to answer this question, a book and many videos.

The most famous is the work done by Prof. John Esposito, of Georgetown University and Dalia Mogahed of the Gallup

2007 Book:

Who Speaks For Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Speaks-Islam-Billion-Muslims/dp/1595620176

Video: Interview with Prof. Esposito

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrDvC5u2OKI


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2017 at 4:42am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Sure. Nothing novel about that idea. It's up to the person asking the question to decide whether he should be satisfied with an answer or whether he should seek another opinion.   So why did the Prophet become very angry when there was a simple error in judgement?


Maybe it's a poor choice of words used by whosoever who wrote that in English.

Someone died in this case and it's a needless death, putting it in a language you would understand. So I think you would understand how it went. The anger was not directed at anyone.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2017 at 4:46am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Do you think these two views can co-exist? How does the first group view the second group? Why are there no representatives of this second group in this forum?


Coexist is what we have been doing all along, depending on geographical locations, of course, and political era.

It will not surprise me if the minority will eventually convince the majority. But again, this is for the learned to discuss. I only have opinions, like everyone else.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2017 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Non Believer

Sure. Nothing novel about that idea. It's up to the person asking the question to decide whether he should be satisfied with an answer or whether he should seek another opinion.   So why did the Prophet become very angry when there was a simple error in judgement?
Maybe it's a poor choice of words used by whosoever who wrote that in English.

Someone died in this case and it's a needless death, putting it in a language you would understand. So I think you would understand how it went. The anger was not directed at anyone.
I found a better explanation of this hadith Ask the People of Knowledge. The important point being to ask the right people. Respect knowledgeable people and avoid the opinions of ignorant people.

"Allah knows how many people's lives or eeman or Islam we have hurt with our arrogance on our ignorance. How quick we are to give our opinion as a rightly informed Islamic ruling."

Which brings me back to my main point... why would I choose the opinion of a poster in this forum over the opinion of a Mufti? Don't you need to cite an authority which can challenge this Mufti? Why would I accept a statement "The Mufti of Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam" when I know that this Mufti is far more learned in Islam than the person making the statement, unless that person can show a contradictory opinion from an authoritative scholar?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2017 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Non Believer

Do you think these two views can co-exist? How does the first group view the second group? Why are there no representatives of this second group in this forum?
Coexist is what we have been doing all along, depending on geographical locations, of course, and political era.

It will not surprise me if the minority will eventually convince the majority. But again, this is for the learned to discuss. I only have opinions, like everyone else.
I see you as a bit of an optimist, Traveller. I, too, was an optimist but then I encountered the intransigence of "the majority".

"The minority" may be one of the most persecuted groups in the world. Being exposed as someone who disbelieves in the absolute truth of Muhammad would be devastating anywhere where Muslims are the majority. I've started a few threads where I've asked what room there is for a progressive Islam and the answer has always been that there is no room.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2017 at 1:11am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

The question of this tread is a good question, NBAnd there is actually a lot of research done in the US and Europe to answer this question, a book and many videos.The most famous is the work done by Prof. John Esposito, of Georgetown University and Dalia Mogahed of the Gallup2007 Book:<span>Who Speaks For Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think</span>https://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Speaks-Islam-Billion-Muslims/dp/1595620176Video: Interview with Prof. Espositohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrDvC5u2OKI
From this video (with the "real Muslim" author) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn12s19X8xU

At 7:10: 86% of Pakistani Muslims and 74% of Indonesian Muslims say that attacks on civilians are "never justified". See, the author says, ... the majority of Muslims do not support terrorism. BUT WAIT A MINUTE...

That's 14% to 26% of Muslims who think that attacks on civilians can be justified, in direct opposition to what Islam supposedly teaches!   What would the percentage of non-Muslims be for this question? Really? Nowhere close to this. I don't know of anyone who would justify an attack on Muslim civilians.

According to this book defending Islam, there are statistically 200 million or more Muslims who support terrorist attacks. No, not a majority, but an obscenely high number.

Just listen to her blithely talk about how Muslims justify attacks on American civilians. No, they don't cite religion to justify the attacks; they fail to cite religion to prohibit the attacks.

I didn't get past the 8:36 mark... someone let me know if it gets better.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2017 at 3:58am
How did the Americans justify bombing Japanese civilians in WW2 with atomic bombs?

Is the bombing of civilians with nuclear (or non-nuclear) bombs justified in the case of war?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2017 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

How did the Americans justify bombing Japanese civilians in WW2 with atomic bombs?Is the bombing of civilians with nuclear (or non-nuclear) bombs justified in the case of war?
Yes, and Hitler murdered millions of civilians, too. So therefore it's justified for Muslims to murder innocent people? You don't see the problem that hundreds of millions of Muslims condone the murder of innocent people?

Please, I need help with my anger. I need Muslims to start being honest about Muslim violence. I can accept that there may be times when an argument can be made that a violent response may be the best option. But why are Muslims so dishonest about the violence inherent in their religion? The 1st Century of Islam was full of violence, expulsions, annihilations of opposing tribes, warring Muslim factions, assassinations; sectarian divisions persist to this day. What modern scholar would look to early Islam for models for conflict resolution?

If 26% of Indonesian Muslims think that attacks on innocent people can be justified, what does that percentage rise to when a person is "guilty" of a minor offence like dressing immodestly or "insulting" the Prophet?

Wow, if I walk down a street in the Muslim world, something like 20% of the people I encounter could justify an attack on me. And Dalia Mogahed speaks with pride about how non-violent these people are. And what an ignoramus John Esposito is.

And you try to deflect to something else.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2017 at 2:54pm
Get that answer in its right context, NB

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