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Magister
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bullet Topic: Praying for the victims of today's attack
    Posted: 01 November 2017 at 8:20am
I'm praying for the victims of today's attack - the living and the dead, those directly affected and those indirectly affected. That's all I can do on my part, and I pray it makes a difference somehow.

I'm also filled with anger that this person comes to my country and harms innocent people in the name of some cult. I condemn his actions and pray that he is dealt with sternly but justly. He murdered in cold blood and in my opinion should be executed by the state (which will most likely happen).

Earlier today I was having a discussion with my mother who was frantically trying to get a hold of my brother who normally works in that area of the city. Thank God we didn't know anyone that was hurt (as I heard they were mostly European and Latin American tourists).

Like most non-Muslims and those who are not too informed on what Islam and the Quran actually teach, she was puzzled as to why terrorists keep showing up hurting innocent people in the name of God. And why it seems they are doing it mainly using the Arabic word for God.

So I had a talk with her. I had to explain to her that despite the perps saying they are doing this for God - the God of the Quran would never permit such evil. I told her about how ISIS is viewed by Muslims - as a political-doomsday-Muslim cult. It differs from other terrorist groups like Al Qaida in that it primarily seeks out civilians and brutality. It also differs from traditional terrorist groups in that its major selling point is violence and slavery, attracting the closet psychopaths from Western and even Muslim nations who want free rein to kill, maim, torture and rape without the consequences but with all the gratification such suffering brings them. Their political goals are their primary goals (over pleasing God), and yet no matter how primary their goals are, they are very rudimentary and vague. They want to eliminate all non-members and take over the world.

A great analogy for ISIS and other similar groups I have is that of the Manson Family with a much better recruiting strategy and a much more open battlefield for them to hide and fight in. Muslims do not support these attacks. In fact, I'd venture to argue that the majority of Muslims inside and outside the Muslim world would be executed/tortured/enslaved by these heretics if we were around them unless we "convert" to their group and pledge allegiance. They even declared war on the Taliban and AQ for not agreeing with them and their tactics - groups that were already criticized by mainstream Islam.

Thankfully my mother knows better than most people. Thanks to me, as well, she isn't easily duped by online Facebook memes that reveal the "true violence" of the Quran. I showed her some examples from time to time of non-Muslims trying to take passages of the Quran out of context and when I showed her them in context, she saw for herself that Islam is not a threat. Her son didn't join a cult. Her daughter-in-law is not plotting her death. We work, we went to school for many years, we have children that we signed up for martial arts, ballet, soccer, etc. We are planning out our oldest child's academic career and trying to maximize his chances of getting into a very prestigious university. We are speaking of taking vacations to Europe and Asia. We are just like anyone else. We believe in Islam with all our hearts, we pray five times a day. We go to mosque. We fast. My wife wears the hijab and abaya. Yet no matter how good we are, how much we exemplify Islam, my wife wearing the hijab isn't used as the typical "good" Muslim, but rather as the typical "oppressed" or "hateful" Muslim.

I think a part of combatting Muslim terrorism is to stop associating Islam with terrorism. There are Muslims who are also terrorists, but we need to stop affirming the terrorists' claims that their demented interpretations are the "true" interpretations of Islam. They're not. But the whole non-Muslim world is pumping it into people's brains that this is what Islam teaches, and it's not. Western media and prejudices seem to be doing a far better job at recruiting for ISIS than ISIS could ever do.

But I also feel that we as Muslims need to work together in combatting these terrorists. There are far too many after 9/11 and Western media glorification of Muslim terrorism for us to simply say, "Well, that's not us". I urge Muslims to do the very least and stop making this about politics and identity. Yes, the non-Muslims hate us, but can we blame them? The same way I say to Americans that wonder why the rest of the world hates us, can you blame them? We bomb every nation that benefits us and kill innocents without ever facing the consequences. But we as Muslims need to do more. Let's stop crying whenever a politician says, "We need to vet Muslims more" because we do. We need to stop crying whenever we hear a politician trying to make moves to curb terrorism even if it inconveniences us. If we're not going to use a heavy hand ourselves as an Ummah to crush terrorism, then let the kuffar do it and let's cooperate. Logically it only makes sense. The faster we crush terrorism, the faster our children and grandchildren can be more readily accepted by the rest of the world. I've seen it myself that Muslims are taking personal offense to moves made by the government to combat terrorism. It's going to seem personal because Muslim terrorists hide among us. And they leave the Ummah as the one holding the bag for a crime it didn't commit.

So much needs to be done, and it seems like 20 years passed but nothing's being done. The West is still vilifying Islam wrongly, and the Muslim world is taking any pre-emptive maneuver against Muslim terrorists as though we were all being rounded up for Hitler's ovens. I'm sad to say it, but I think that if things don't change, the ovens might be a reality for the Muslims. It takes both sides to change, but things have to change. Muslims are going through less than what the Italians and Japanese went through during WWII. The least we can do on our part is cooperate and not turn it into a political fight between right and left.


Edited by Magister - 01 November 2017 at 8:25am
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bullet Posted: 01 November 2017 at 11:56am
Food for thought, Magister. TY.

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bullet Posted: 01 November 2017 at 5:41pm
I see some positive things in your post, Magister, however, there are areas where you are fooling yourself and trying to fool us.

It is wrong to portray the perpetrator as a demented psychopath. Since he wasn't killed, we'll find out more about him. I think we'll discover that he is as rational as anyone who believes in God can be. I think we'll learn that he justifies his act on the basis of a "greater good". We'll see. In any case, he wanted to die and I don't think the government should fulfil his wish. At the very least, he should live to see the consequences of his action to his family.   Weren't the families of enemy combatants enslaved by Muhammad's companions? I'm not suggesting that we should go that far.

You are wrong to describe this as a new "ISIS" ideology. The conflict with the West goes back to the earliest days of Islam. I haven't looked into every single period, but at least we have the conquests of Jerusalem, Hispania, Constantinople, the Balkans, Hungary, and so on. I can't see that what you state has varied much over history: "Their political goals are their primary goals (over pleasing God), and yet no matter how primary their goals are, they are very rudimentary and vague. They want to eliminate all non-members and take over the world." However, I must point out that the goal of these terrorists is other than political; they are targeting out of hatred not for political gain.

At least you admit that these terrorists are Muslims. That's a positive first step. The next step is to admit that it is easy to use Islam to motivate a Muslim to terrorism. The God of the Quran has indeed permitted such evil.

It's discouraging to hear politicians blame individuals for this evil and implying that the evil can be defeated by killing these people, or at least keeping them out of our countries. The true evil is an ideology that can justify this sort of violence. It has been reported that the perpetrator left a note "ISIS will endure forever".
That's the real problem... how do you destroy this ideology? I won't go so far as to advocate for ovens, but at least we have to demand that Muslims abandon those elements of Islam that engender hatred against non-Muslims or allow "service of God" as a justification for any act.

“It takes both sides to change”. Non-Muslims are responding to what Islam is; Islam has to change first, then we can respond differently. What change can Muslims make so that conciliation is possible?

Edited by Non Believer - 01 November 2017 at 5:42pm
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bullet Posted: 01 November 2017 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

I see some positive things in your post, Magister, however, there are areas where you are fooling yourself and trying to fool us.

 1)  At the very least, he should live to see the consequences of his action to his family.

 2)  Non-Muslims are responding to what Islam is; Islam has to change first, then we can respond differently. What change can Muslims make so that conciliation is possible?


1)  Many, if not all, of these terrorists' families are paid by countries, organizations, individuals, etc.  It's a fact. 

2)  Good question, NB, and not just for Magister to comment on here.  I will add, "when will these changes start"? 


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bullet Posted: 02 November 2017 at 4:25am
May God be with all those affected by this horrible crime, and give patience to their families and friends

Ameen

http://aboutislam.net/muslim-issues/america/american-muslims-pray-manhattan-victims/


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bullet Posted: 02 November 2017 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

May God be with all those affected by this horrible crime, and give patience to their families and friendsAmeenhttp://aboutislam.net/muslim-issues/america/american-muslims-pray-manhattan-victims/
With all due respect, Al-Cordoby, I think you should stop reading aboutislam.com. How many times have I pointed out the glaring inaccuracies and biases of its articles.
Meanwhile, Catholic leaders issued a statement confirming that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.
“Today our city and our nation are stunned and horrified by another senseless act of violence. While details continue to emerge: once again, no matter our religion, racial or ethnic background, or political beliefs, we must put our differences aside and come together in faith and love to support those who are injured, pray for those who died as well as their families and loved ones,” Catholic Cardinal Timothy Dolan said in a statement.
That statement in no way confirms that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. Twisting this man's words is a sinful act.

Repeating this lie over and over again will not change the truth. If Islam isn't the connection between violent events that are taking place in another part of the world and this act of terror, then what is? What is it that connects this Uzbec Muslim to his hatred for his chosen country of residence?
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bullet Posted: 03 November 2017 at 4:20am
ISIS are a serious threat to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims

And we all must work together (people of all faiths and backgrounds) to stop their crimes and refute their false teachings to end the harm they are causing to humanity, in the East and in the West.

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bullet Posted: 03 November 2017 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

ISIS are a serious threat to all people, Muslims and non-MuslimsAnd we all must work together (people of all faiths and backgrounds) to stop their crimes and refute their false teachings to end the harm they are causing to humanity, in the East and in the West.
Yes, fundamentalists are a threat to Muslims as well and this is a big problem.

You want to blame "ISIS" which has only been around for a few years, when the problems have existed for much longer?

What are the "false teachings"? What distinguishes "ISIS" from other fundamentalists? What distinguishes "good" fundamentalism from "false" fundamentalism? How do you distinguish the caliphate of the "Rightly Guided Caliph" Abu Bakr who declared war on a tribe which refused to pay it taxes from the caliphate that these Iraqi and Syrian fundamentalists attempted to establish? How do the actions of the ISIS caliphate differ from those of Muhammad who slaughtered the men of the Banu Qurayza, enslaved the women and children, and distributed their property as booty?

These question need to be answered. I'm not being "Islamophobic". If there are good answers to these questions, it shouldn't be hard for you to make the argument.
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bullet Posted: 03 November 2017 at 5:20pm
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, among many other Muslim scholars, refuted ISIS in several speeches, including this Friday speech in California, three years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJo4B-yaxfk


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bullet Posted: 03 November 2017 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, among many other Muslim scholars, refuted ISIS in several speeches, including this Friday speech in California, three years ago:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJo4B-yaxfk
Sorry, I find him very hard to understand. He should stick to English and go straight to the point.

Can you summarise how he answers my questions? And remember, I'm not asking specifically about ISIS. I'm asking, once again, for examples of what Islamic extremists teach which are "false teachings".

The problem seems to be that there were times when Muhammad was able to justify the slaughter of innocents and there were other times when such slaughter was not permitted. What I think Hansen is arguing is like saying that because Hitler didn't slaughter every Frenchman, Hitler didn't commit genocide. We have to focus on the acts of violence. When an opportunity when there could have been a more violent response is passed up in favour of a more moderate response, it doesn't prove that violent responses were not permitted. I have already pointed out two instances of extreme and unnecessary violence against innocent people.

Edited by Non Believer - 03 November 2017 at 11:31pm
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bullet Posted: 04 November 2017 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

ISIS are a serious threat to all people, Muslims and non-MuslimsAnd we all must work together (people of all faiths and backgrounds) to stop their crimes and refute their false teachings to end the harm they are causing to humanity, in the East and in the West.
Yes, fundamentalists are a threat to Muslims as well and this is a big problem.

You want to blame "ISIS" which has only been around for a few years, when the problems have existed for much longer?


Must disagree with you on this point.

I'm not sure if you paid attention to the post I made for Saved wherein I provided data showing that "Islamic" terror is a relatively recent thing, becoming very pronounced after 9/11 and happening less and less the further back in time we move until we finally get to a few decades ago where Muslim terror was either extremely rare or non-existent.

I wonder what happened in the middle of the 20th Century that could've created an unrest in the Middle East?

Anyway, this is not a problem that has existed for "much longer". It's a modern phenomenon (which is in itself all the evidence we need to know that Islam is not the culprit but rather people and politics are).
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bullet Posted: 05 November 2017 at 2:24am
Originally posted by Magister

Must disagree with you on this point.I'm not sure if you paid attention to the post I made for Saved wherein I provided data showing that "Islamic" terror is a relatively recent thing, becoming very pronounced after 9/11 and happening less and less the further back in time we move until we finally get to a few decades ago where Muslim terror was either extremely rare or non-existent.I wonder what happened in the middle of the 20th Century that could've created an unrest in the Middle East?Anyway, this is not a problem that has existed for "much longer". It's a modern phenomenon (which is in itself all the evidence we need to know that Islam is not the culprit but rather people and politics are).
I'll take the time to respond to this if and when someone takes the time to respond to my many questions in this thread.
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bullet Posted: 06 November 2017 at 8:31pm
You don't have to answer - the statistics show that Muslim terror is a very, very new phenomenon, with all sorts of other groups committing acts of terror while Muslims never popped up. Marxist movements, Separist movements, Catholic vs Protestant wars, etc. were the things responsible for almost all the terrorist attacks prior to the recent era.

In other words, the stats show that Islam, which existed for 1400 years, had little to nothing to do with terrorism till recently. Therefore Islam is not to blame, but rather politics, people, and circumstances.
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bullet Posted: 06 November 2017 at 10:24pm
So you continue to dodge the underlying issue. I'm not surprised. The issue is not terrorism, which is just the very tip of the iceberg; the fundamentalism that is leading to the terrorism is the issue. This fundamentalism has been the cause of violence in every century including this century. Most of the victims of the conflicts, both Muslim and non-Muslim, were the result of direct combat. However, I would cite the assassination of Caliph Ali as an example of terrorism from the 7th Century. Terrorism, though not the main problem, is also not a new phenomenon.

So now, would you like to divert your attention from the distraction of these minor incidents involving a small number of victims and focus on the big problem of billions of people who are unable to live together in peace?
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