Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Current Events
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : Current Events
Message Icon Topic: Man forgives murderer for killing his son Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 2 Next >>
Author Message
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5115
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Topic: Man forgives murderer for killing his son
    Posted: 08 November 2017 at 7:49pm
Masha'Allah, this takes faith in God and compassion for other human beings. In Islam we are taught to forgive others, even when it's done against us. At times, forgiveness can be extraordinarily difficult to do, our human nature wants vengeance/harm done to the killer. But this man (apparently Muslim), forgave his son's killer in front of everyone. This takes a huge heart, strength, compassion, and more. This is the example of Prophet Muhammad (saws) in action. This is the Sunnah of our Rasulullah!

http://www.lex18.com/story/36783392/father-of-murdered-pizza-delivery-driver-forgives-killer
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2017 at 9:41pm
Considering how often I've asked questions about whether or not Islam has the same concepts of forgiveness and reconciliation as Christianity, I find it odd that you should act like you have just discovered this issue.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I mentioned how, as a child in public school, we would recite the Lord's Prayer with the line "And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us." I bemoaned the fact that, even though we said these words at the start of every school day, the meaning of the words was never explained to me.

In another thread, I pointed out how the central Christian message of forgiveness had meaning to me while the central Islamic message of Tawheed had no meaning to me.

In another thread, I asked about the hadith "Verily the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their Prophets. which contradicts this concept of forgiveness.

And in another thread when I asked about this concept, all you could manage for intelligent discussion is that forgiveness is "At the discretion of the Muslim."

Now, if you would like to engage in discussion, do you agree that Christian forgiveness is unconditional, while Islamic forgiveness is conditional on the remorse of the perpetrator? That has been the consistent response to my questions about Islamic reconciliation. Even you pointed out recently, that such verses in the Quran are conditional with such things as "But if they want peace..."

This is a serious subject and a subject which I have learned much about from Christian sources.

Edited by Non Believer - 08 November 2017 at 9:43pm
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5115
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2017 at 12:59am
Originally posted by Non Believer


In another thread, I pointed out how the central Christian message of forgiveness had meaning to me while the central Islamic message of Tawheed had no meaning to me.


This notion of "central Islamic message" seems arbitrary to me. I'd more readily argue that the central Islamic message is submitting oneself to the Creator, trusting in Him, worshiping Him. Tawhid is a part of this, but it's not, in my eyes, the end-all-be-all of Islam. We see Jews as having Tawheed too, but yet they are still misguided by our beliefs. I get it that the message of Tawheed seems so strong in Islam, but it's mainly because of the historical context of Islam and because Christianity ran into its problems with monotheism. Declaring, "There is but one God!" to a polytheist is great, but saying it to a Jew and he'll be like, "Yes, I agree" and the Christian would at least verbally agree as well. Declaring that same statement to an atheist might get the response of, "I never said there was more!"

Tawhid, forgiveness, love, etc. all of that falls under submission to the Creator.

Originally posted by Non Believer


In another thread, I asked about the hadith "Verily the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreement with their Prophets. which contradicts this concept of forgiveness. 


Punishment and forgiveness are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure you'd punish your kid but not hold it to heart forever and ever. Forgiveness in Islam (and Christianity for that matter) is not about excusing bad behavior or letting someone get away with committing crimes. Justice must still exist even in a universe of forgiveness.

Originally posted by Non Believer


And in another thread when I asked about this concept, all you could manage for intelligent discussion is that forgiveness is "At the discretion of the Muslim."


This article is a perfect line of evidence for what I said that you quoted. This man used his discretion and his God-given compassion to forgive someone who murdered his child. This man has a right to remain angry. He is not forced to forgive, although he is recommended to forgive. He could hold it against the man until the Day of Judgment and let God deliver His own justice which is far more painful. But instead, the father had sympathy for the killer, likely prayed about it, and did not want to hold it against the man for all eternity. In other words, on the Day of Judgment, the killer can no longer be held accountable for what he did to this man because the man forgave him. He can still be held accountable for a lot of other things, but the father pretty much cleared the killer's debt and said, "Don't worry about it, you don't owe me anything!" This is so courageous to live up to that Example/Sunnah of the Prophet (saws).

Originally posted by Non Believer


Now, if you would like to engage in discussion, do you agree that Christian forgiveness is unconditional, while Islamic forgiveness is conditional on the remorse of the perpetrator? That has been the consistent response to my questions about Islamic reconciliation. Even you pointed out recently, that such verses in the Quran are conditional with such things as "But if they want peace..." 


I think you're making up differences. There is no difference between the Christian divine forgiveness and the Muslim divine forgiveness with the exception that the Muslim forgiveness didn't require blood sacrifice.

Both the NT and the Quran lay out at least one unforgivable sin that God would never forgive (in the NT, it's denying the Holy Ghost, and in the Quran it's associating others with God - but in Islam, one can still be forgiven if they repent of that before they die - this is because Islam's view of forgiveness entails forgiveness of sins you didn't necessarily repent of when you reach the Day of Judgment). So, from that point alone, I've shown that neither concept of forgiveness is "unconditional".

Further, Christianity and Islam both require "repentance" in order for sins to be forgiven. No sacrifices. No dances. No chants. Just prayer, acknowledgement of sin, and committing never to sin again. It's a rinse-and-repeat process if the sinner keeps "slipping".

In addition to this, without repentance, there can be no forgiveness in Christianity, and therefore for the sinners and the non-believers is endless torment in Hellfire after being brutally murdered with garden tools by Jesus (as) and the angels - Book of Revelation in a nutshell. Islam, on the other hand, allows for all sorts of sins to be forgiven without even repentance being required. In the Quran itself, Allah (swt) says He might overlook the minor sins we commit if we try to avoid the major sins. The hadiths are replete with people you'd think never make it into heaven being forgiven of all their sins because they were good to others (like the prostitute who lived a life of sin, but saw a dog dying of thirst, and moved with compassion, gave the dog the last drop of water to drink instead of herself - a move of self-sacrifice that God used to forgive all her sins and admit her into paradise; or the man who was so terrified of meeting God on the Day of Resurrection that on his death bed he had his children promise to burn his body and scatter the ashes all around the earth in the hopes that Allah can't resurrect so many ashes or He wouldn't want to put the effort in - but sure enough he is resurrected and when Allah rhetorically asks why he did this, he admits he was so ashamed of how bad of a sinner he was and he was so scared of hellfire and felt that there wasn't enough time to repent before death so he did this as a last ditch attempt to hide his shame - and for having that level of guilt and faith, God forgave him his sins).

Forgiveness from God is more unconditional in Islam than in Christianity, but it is not unconditional in either.

On the individual level, the Christian is commanded to forgive, but it's no way near unconditional. Christianity through churches and the NT itself teach disfellowship, excommunication, and shunning those who reject Jesus (such as former Christians or those who never embraced Jesus). If you want a perfect example of this conditional forgiveness - check out any of the various Protestant sects. I posted to you a while back a list of denominations notorious for excommunication and disfellowships. Look at the Jehovah's Witnesses and how a sin can be the end of a whole family based on the NT's teachings.

There's no such thing as unconditional forgiveness - even within the theoretical framework of Christ's teachings, forgiveness went only as far as not taking the law into your own hands because the NT gives full rein for the congregation to punish even repentant sinners.

Originally posted by Non Believer


This is a serious subject and a subject which I have learned much about from Christian sources.
 


It is indeed a serious topic, and I pray I provided a sufficient argument for Islam's position even within the context of other views.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 26285
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2017 at 5:59am
Originally posted by Magister

This takes a huge heart, strength, compassion, and more. This is the example of Prophet Muhammad (saws) in action. This is the Sunnah of our Rasulullah!



Exactly

And the judge breaks up in tears in this CNN video of the court case, and takes a break:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/08/us/family-forgives-convict-pizza-delivery-driver-death-trnd/index.html?sr=twCNN110817family-forgives-convict-pizza-delivery-driver-death-trnd0616PMStory

Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5115
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2017 at 12:56am
Extraordinarily touching. This is what Islam teaches. This is what Islam is.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2017 at 11:52pm
There's a recent thread discussing the significance of Tawhid. Go ahead and add some thoughts there, if you're interested in continuing that part of this conversation.

My point was that I don't think anyone disputes that forgiveness like what we see in this incident is central to Christianity. I don't know why it is so hard for Muslims to say positive things about other people; failing to do so just increases division. As for myself, since I'm not bound to one teaching or the other and can learn from any teaching, I'm interested in fully understanding this issue.

When is this sort of forgiveness the right thing to do? What are the conditions? Have you forgiven the perpetrators in Manchester, London, NYC, the churches in SC and TX, the masjid in QC, etc.? If not, why not?

Once forgiveness like this is offered, what is appropriate? Is it really necessary to send that killer to prison for 31 years? What is just? As you've pointed out, the father has said "you don't owe me anything!"

Obviously, I'm not asking about divine forgiveness and never mind how misguided churches act. And I'll leave it to a Christian to argue about your last point about the theoretical framework of Christ's teachings.
Originally posted by Magister

This is what Islam teaches. This is what Islam is.
You likely have no idea just how much this rankles me. Since there is nothing uniquely Islamic about this, how can it be a the defining quality of Islam?
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 26285
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2017 at 2:54am
Originally posted by Magister

Extraordinarily touching. This is what Islam teaches. This is what Islam is.


Exactly
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2017 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Originally posted by Magister

Extraordinarily touching. This is what Islam teaches. This is what Islam is.
Exactly
Exactly what, Al-Cordoby?

As Magister has described the principle, the Muslim may remain angry or he may choose to forgive. The teaching is entirely ambiguous. "Exactly" is the last word I would use to describe this teaching.

What I have learned from Christian teaching is that the path from anger to forgiveness is a long and difficult path which takes time. We cannot be expected to immediately forgive a wrongdoer, but it is still a path which we must take. It is a path on which we need the support of others and, therefore, those of us who are near a victim must reach out and help the victim to make this journey.

Instead of you guys sitting around and patting yourselves on the back in the glory of this unfortunate man who has succeeded in this difficult journey, why not dig a little bit deeper into understanding the challenges that he has overcome? Then, you will truly appreciate this scene.

That said, I think the criminal justice system has failed the killer. Doesn't your religion also say that the goal is to bring the wrongdoer back to the path of righteousness? Is that the purpose of the 31 years in prison, or is the purpose vindictive and contrary to both Christian and Islamic principles?

Edited by Non Believer - 11 November 2017 at 12:57pm
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Corinna  
Graduate
Graduate

Religion: Judaism(Orthodox)
Posts: 2157
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2017 at 2:56pm
Not forgiving makes the non-forgiver hateful and, in many ways, inhuman.  To forgive is rather easy when one is has positive guidelines by which to go.  Any non-religious (or even some religious) self-help group can testify to that truth. 

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 26285
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2017 at 2:14am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Exactly what, Al-Cordoby?


Islam teaches us to forgive
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2017 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Corinna

Not forgiving makes the non-forgiver hateful and, in many ways, inhuman. To forgive is rather easy when one is has positive guidelines by which to go. Any non-religious (or even some religious) self-help group can testify to that truth.
HI Corinna, I have a couple of questions about this:
1. Though there are many examples of divine judgement in the Tanakh, it doesn't seem like a significant theme in modern Judaism. Am I right? If so, how do Jews explain that God was busy judging a few thousand years ago but not today?
2. I have never heard of forgiveness as being a significant theme in Judaism. Are there examples of individual forgiveness in the Tanakh?
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Non Believer  
Undergraduate
Undergraduate

Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 1033
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2017 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Originally posted by Non Believer

Exactly what, Al-Cordoby?
Islam teaches us to forgive
I'll let you and Magister sort out what Islam teaches, and you can let us know.
Originally posted by Magister

]This man has a right to remain angry. He is not forced to forgive, although he is recommended to forgive. He could hold it against the man until the Day of Judgment
I don't see any real insight into this very important problem.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5115
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2017 at 5:00pm
Non Believer, you want people to be forced to do things that they are not inclined to do. You can't force someone to love you if they just don't want to. You can't force someone to forgive you simply because you demand it.

Islam provides for us the highest example to live by. We are to strive to have such a heart so as to forgive those that wronged us, but we are not "forced" to forgive because then it would not be genuine. Unlike others, we are not in the business of forgiving with just our lips.

Islam is the most practical moral high ground you can take - strongly incentivizing forgiveness and such, but not forcing something that's impossible to control that easily.

This man is a hero. He was not forced by his religion to just "say" he forgives his son's killer. He forgave from his heart and in doing so he followed the example of Muhammad (saws).

Islam provides the best solution here. Forgive if you are spiritually mature enough, or seek justice through legal means if you cannot be that much like Muhammad (saws).
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5115
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2017 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Corinna

Not forgiving makes the non-forgiver hateful and, in many ways, inhuman.  To forgive is rather easy when one is has positive guidelines by which to go.  Any non-religious (or even some religious) self-help group can testify to that truth. 



Growing up throughout my life, the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth method seemed more satisfactory.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Page  of 2 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.