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Non Believer  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2017 at 2:46pm
Magister, you clearly do not understand what I am saying about forgiveness. Obviously, an atheist like myself has no motivation for "faking" forgiveness. What I understand about forgiveness is that it is primarily for the benefit of the person who has suffered from wrongdoing and is a goal, much more difficult to achieve, even when the wrongdoer is unrepentant.

To say that either of the two courses available is acceptable and not provide any guidance is no teaching at all.

PS. You haven't answered any of the questions that I've posed in this thread.

Edited by Non Believer - 13 November 2017 at 2:47pm
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2017 at 7:28pm
Of course you have a motivation for faking forgiveness, and Corinna brought up an excellent point supporting this earlier in the thread. You can do it for social status, for praise, and so on.

And the two courses might be available, but one is more desired than the other. One can choose not to forgive and to demand retribution (in this case, financial compensation or execution), that is the individual's right. But he can choose to let the man go unpunished entirely by forgiving him. This is Islamically superior, but is very difficult to do. The one who forgives is emulating the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws) who forgave even his worst enemies without asking for any sort of compensation or punishment.

And I'm sorry that you think I didn't answer your questions. I'm not sure which questions you're referring to. Can you specify them in your reply to me and I'll try the best I can to answer them?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2017 at 10:50pm
I think I'm done with this thread. Dogma without understanding. Frankly, it's gotten a little bit ridiculous when we start talking about "fake" forgiveness.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2017 at 2:00am
Originally posted by Non Believer

I think I'm done with this thread. Dogma without understanding. Frankly, it's gotten a little bit ridiculous when we start talking about "fake" forgiveness.


Tsk tsk.

When the going gets tough, the weak get going.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2017 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Non Believer

I think I'm done with this thread. Dogma without understanding. Frankly, it's gotten a little bit ridiculous when we start talking about "fake" forgiveness.


Tsk tsk.

When the going gets tough, the weak get going.
There was a time when insulting comments would make me angry. However, I have learned that, like all people, the people posting here are not perfect. I find it easy to forgive them when they err. Isn't that the point?

PS. It does whyislam no benefit to condone insulting comments. It creates an unpleasant environment. At this point, I post mainly for my own benefit; it forces me to organise my thoughts. That someone finds my posts confused tells me that I still have work to do.

Edited by Non Believer - 14 November 2017 at 12:05pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2017 at 6:29pm
So sad that you would find comments to be insulting which might not necessarily be.

And you're right - none of us are perfect. And I find it easy to forgive many of the posters here as well when they err. The problem is when that occasional err becomes a habit.

And let's be for real - when you saw you couldn't adequately defend your arguments, you turned around, called our discussion ridiculous and refused to continue in it.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2017 at 9:41pm
Well, I never knew that this was some sort of contest.

I posted in this thread to help improve my understanding of this issue, both by gathering my own thoughts and by reading the thoughts of others. I was interested to see if Islam offered any insight beyond what I have learned through readings from various sources. To be fair, there are not many Muslims posting here and I won't conclude that Islam has nothing to offer in this regard.

As I've pointed out several times, I'm not fixed on any particular way of thinking. I'm happy to adopt the "best practice" wherever it comes from. In this case, it is not Islam.

The fact that this thread was started is itself evidence of the weakness in Islam. That you are so praiseworthy for something which should be commonplace proves that it isn't commonplace within Islam; it's the exception rather than the rule. Your comments about "forced" forgiveness show just how unnatural you think forgiveness is, when, once taught about the importance of forgiveness, forgiveness should be your natural inclination. You should want to do it; you should understand what the obstacles are, and so on.

I hoped that by posting in this thread, that if I couldn't learn anything from a Muslim, a Muslim might learn something from me. However, your attitude of having to always be "right" prevents you from learning from anyone who isn't like you. It's too bad.

Edited by Non Believer - 14 November 2017 at 9:42pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 15 November 2017 at 3:48am
Originally posted by Non Believer


Well, I never knew that this was some sort of contest.


I was hoping it wasn't. I was hoping you were finally trying to learn about the religion.

Originally posted by Non Believer


The fact that this thread was started is itself evidence of the weakness in Islam.


It was started to show that while man is weak, Islam can make people stronger by providing a righteous example to emulate.

Originally posted by Non Believer


That you are so praiseworthy for something which should be commonplace proves that it isn't commonplace within Islam; it's the exception rather than the rule.


In human nature it's the exception rather than the rule. It's very rare. And this happened to be one of those rare instances. And I wanted to use it as a way of demonstrating that this is what Islam encourages and teaches. But you didn't want to accept that. You want to argue even more that Islam is wrong or bad or whatever because this man followed the Sunnah and forgave someone that did him wrong! You should be happy that our religion preaches this. Yet you go on as though it should ONLY preach this. Not so fast, there. Islam is not a "theoretical" religion. It's a "practical" religion. Therefore it allows for someone to still seek the law for compensation.

But even so, if they go through the proper legal channels, a Muslim must still forgive the sins of their wrongdoers: "The reward of the evil is the evil thereof, but whosever forgives and makes amends, his reward is upon God." (42:40)

24:22 also tells us that we ought to forgive others since we want Allah to forgive us.

Originally posted by Non Believer


Your comments about "forced" forgiveness show just how unnatural you think forgiveness is, when, once taught about the importance of forgiveness, forgiveness should be your natural inclination. You should want to do it; you should understand what the obstacles are, and so on.


That's not the way the world works, though. That's not how human behavior works. We have multiple words for vendetta, revenge, vengeance, retaliation, etc. - all words demonstrating just how bad humans are at forgiving.

Islam is practical. Your theory is unrealistic. Islam provides a means for those who cannot find the strength to forgive their wrongdoers to obtain justice from the legal system. Yet you expect that all Muslims should abandon the legal system and forgive every single wrongdoing done to them, and I'm assuming you don't expect the same from any other religion. Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. can choose to go to the law instead of forgiving, but only Muslims are obliged to forgive all wrongdoings done to them.

That's a bit bigoted, sir.

Edited by Magister - 15 November 2017 at 3:50am
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Non Believer Replybullet Posted: 15 November 2017 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by Magister

I was hoping you were finally trying to learn about the religion.
If I'm not mistaken "Magister" means teacher. With all due respect, I don't think you act like a teacher. It's unfortunate that you are practically the only Muslim posting in these forums.
Originally posted by Magister

In human nature it's the exception rather than the rule. It's very rare. And this happened to be one of those rare instances. And I wanted to use it as a way of demonstrating that this is what Islam encourages and teaches. But you didn't want to accept that.
If this is a "rare exception", then there is no way that you can call it the essence of being Muslim. That is what I don't accept.
Originally posted by Magister

You want to argue even more that Islam is wrong or bad or whatever because this man followed the Sunnah and forgave someone that did him wrong! You should be happy that our religion preaches this. Yet you go on as though it should ONLY preach this.
Not at all. What this man did is commendable. What isn't commendable is your claim that forgiveness is a pillar of Islam. I don't find forgiveness in the Five Pillars or listed in the virtues in Qur'an 33:35 or just about anywhere that I look into articles on Islam. It just isn't a major theme that I can see, and I don't see it as a trait of modern Muslim leaders.
Originally posted by Magister

Not so fast, there. Islam is not a "theoretical" religion. It's a "practical" religion. Therefore it allows for someone to still seek the law for compensation.
You seem to be having difficulty separating the spiritual issues from the legal issues.
Originally posted by Magister

But even so, if they go through the proper legal channels, a Muslim must still forgive the sins of their wrongdoers: "The reward of the evil is the evil thereof, but whosever forgives and makes amends, his reward is upon God." (42:40)
Thank you for this. I've been looking for the word "reconciliation" in the Qur'an and it appears in several translations of this verse. That said, I understand that this verse is from the Meccan period. Most of my criticism of Muhammad arises from his time as an authoritarian ruler.
Originally posted by Magister

24:22 also tells us that we ought to forgive others since we want Allah to forgive us.
I've pondered this verse before in its context. What I found was that it was directed towards a specific situation (Abu Bakr and his poor cousin Mistah bin Uthatha). "And let not those of virtue among you and wealth swear not to give [aid] to their relatives and the needy and the emigrants for the cause of Allah, and let them pardon and overlook." By itself, it isn't much and it wasn't a case of murder.
Originally posted by Magister

We have multiple words for vendetta, revenge, vengeance, retaliation, etc. - all words demonstrating just how bad humans are at forgiving.
We have many other words like murder, slander, etc. for which we don't make excuses. Uncontrolled anger belongs to the category of which we must not excuse.
Originally posted by Magister

Your theory is unrealistic. Islam provides a means for those who cannot find the strength to forgive their wrongdoers to obtain justice from the legal system. Yet you expect that all Muslims should abandon the legal system and forgive every single wrongdoing done to them,
That's not at all what I'm saying. You are failing to separate the victim's spiritual trauma from society's obligation to uphold law and order. The two are not unrelated and whether or not the perpetrator is brought to justice and whether or not he is remorseful can make a big difference to the victim's ability to heal. On the other hand, shouldn't the justice system give consideration to the remorse of the criminal? I asked about the 31-year sentence and you never answered.
Originally posted by Magister

and I'm assuming you don't expect the same from any other religion. Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. can choose to go to the law instead of forgiving, but only Muslims are obliged to forgive all wrongdoings done to them.

That's a bit bigoted, sir.
I don't know about Jews and Hindus. I've seen the scene in the OP played out by Christians over and over again. It is by examining and understanding these scenes that I draw my own views. How dare you call me a bigot for simply pointing out how much more fundamental this concept is in Christianity than it is in Islam. That's obvious to me; more so given your poor evidence to the contrary.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 17 November 2017 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by Non Believer


If this is a "rare exception", then there is no way that you can call it the essence of being Muslim. That is what I don't accept.


It was the essence of Muhammad (saws), and every Muslim is commanded to follow Muhammad.

Originally posted by Non Believer


Not at all. What this man did is commendable. What isn't commendable is your claim that forgiveness is a pillar of Islam. I don't find forgiveness in the Five Pillars or listed in the virtues in Qur'an 33:35 or just about anywhere that I look into articles on Islam. It just isn't a major theme that I can see, and I don't see it as a trait of modern Muslim leaders. 


I posted previously some Islamic evidence that forgiveness was important. It's a part of submitting to Allah.

Originally posted by Non Believer


Most of my criticism of Muhammad arises from his time as an authoritarian ruler. 


But for the Muslim, Quran is Quran. This verse is as important to me as the next verse.

Originally posted by Non Believer


I've pondered this verse before in its context. What I found was that it was directed towards a specific situation (Abu Bakr and his poor cousin Mistah bin Uthatha). "And let not those of virtue among you and wealth swear not to give [aid] to their relatives and the needy and the emigrants for the cause of Allah, and let them pardon and overlook." By itself, it isn't much and it wasn't a case of murder. 


But the principle remains the same, regardless of storyline surrounding the forgiveness. Forgiveness is always given top priority while leaving the alternative as a halal option, that is, seeking out legal retaliation.

Originally posted by Non Believer


That's not at all what I'm saying. You are failing to separate the victim's spiritual trauma from society's obligation to uphold law and order. The two are not unrelated and whether or not the perpetrator is brought to justice and whether or not he is remorseful can make a big difference to the victim's ability to heal. On the other hand, shouldn't the justice system give consideration to the remorse of the criminal? I asked about the 31-year sentence and you never answered. 


I think we might be misunderstanding each other. I'll clarify what I'm saying. This man, an indirect victim, had the option to forgive now or to not forgive now which in turn would open up two other options. The first would be in an Islamic state, and would allow for him to seek legal action against the killer through Shariah law. The second would be to remain silent yet unforgiving so that the Almighty may distribute justice upon this man either in this life or the next or in both.

In this story, the Muslim man chose to forgive the man so that the man wouldn't have to be punished by Allah.

You mentioned the 31 years, but this is a secular law and punishment. In Sharia law (the legal authority the Muslim would seek in an Islamic state), the killer, if left unpardoned, is executed by the state.

So the 31 years is for the non-Muslim government to distribute justice. If it were an Islamic state, the Muslim man forgiving the killer means the killer would've been given a second chance and went free. This is what Muhammad (saws) did to the Meccans.
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