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Non Believer  
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bullet Topic: Justification for the murder of innocent
    Posted: 20 November 2017 at 4:40pm
I asked some questions in a thread which was locked before anyone found the time to respond.
Originally posted by Traveller

Killing innocent people can never be justified. Period.

Originally posted by Non Believer

Why won't you address the murders in Muhammad's time? Do you really think that no innocent people were killed under orders of Muhammad? How do you deny the innocence of so many of these victims?

Originally posted by Traveller

I am pretty sure no innocent people were killed as a result of a direct order from Prophet Muhammad, صلي الله عليه وسلم.

Originally posted by Non Believer

The incident I keep raising and that none of the Muslims here will comment on is the treatment of the Banu Qurayza. Ignoring Ibn Ishaq, we have the Quranic verses Al-Ahzab 33:9-27. In particular:

33:23 Among the believers are men true to what they promised Allah . Among them is he who has fulfilled his vow [to the death], and among them is he who awaits [his chance]. And they did not alter [the terms of their commitment] by any alteration -

33:24 That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth and punish the hypocrites if He wills or accept their repentance. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

33:25 And Allah repelled those who disbelieved, in their rage, not having obtained any good. And sufficient was Allah for the believers in battle, and ever is Allah Powerful and Exalted in Might.

33:26 And He brought down those who supported them among the People of the Scripture from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts [so that] a party you killed, and you took captive a party.

33:27 And He caused you to inherit their land and their homes and their properties and a land which you have not trodden. And ever is Allah, over all things, competent.

When you read this, you have to understand that these words are directed at a person like me, one who does not accept the authority of Muhammad. Your holy book calls for my destruction. Why is this so hard for Muslims to see?

I have seen many excuses for the treatment of this tribe: treachery, treaty violations, allegations of assaults against Muslims, and so on. However, none of that, if true, would justify the murder, enslavement, and seizure of property which is described in the one source that Muslims will not challenge.

Originally posted by Traveller

When I read those verses, I see the importance of being steadfast in faith, a virtue in God's sight.

I also see God's supreme authority. God said He alone will decide who is deserving of mercy or punishment.

God said none can escape Him, no fortress that we men build can protect us from His wrath.

I have no say in this NB. If God does decide to punish you in the hereafter, there is nothing I can do to help you.

Originally posted by Non Believer

Fine, Traveller, you have finally convinced me of the divinity of the Qur'an.

Reading these verses, I have just vowed to the death to do as did these Medinans. I must fulfil my vow and I believe that Allah will assist me to bring down those who I believe are hypocrites and all those who support them. We will kill and enslave those whom we capture and we will inherit their land and their homes and their property.

Where shall we begin? There are hypocrites everywhere.

History has shown that powerful forces have no problem wreaking the sort of destruction that is described in these verses. Now that I'm a believer, I believe that this shows Allah's authorisation for these destroyers. With good allies, we can do Allah's bidding and destroy hypocrites and those who support them, no problem. Let's get going on this! If Allah fails to protect our enemies, then we will know that our cause is just. Allahu Akbar!

Will you join with me?

Obviously, I'm being sardonic to show you how dangerous an uncritical belief in divine instructions can be. Such verses may have been justified when they were first spoken, but they have absolutely no place today. There is no possibility of me accepting these verses as having divine origin, simply because any view of divinity that I could hold would be a view of universality and unity. I cannot conceive of a god who would choose sides in a political fight and authorise the destruction of his creation for the political gain of one side over the other.

You compare this to other incidents, but it's a false equivalence. Nobody is claiming that those incidents create a precedent and a justification for current acts of violence.

Before I came to this forum, I did not understand to what extent Muslims still believe that every word of the Qur'an is of divine origin. That's an untenable position in our world today.

Originally posted by Traveller

Which is more violent to you?

1. Smashing babies onto boulders or 2. beheading the heads of the enemies in battle.

Originally posted by Non Believer

Which of these is a recent event? And why do you say "in battle". Beheadings are carried out on defenceless captives, both in Muhammad's day and by Islamists today. No one is sanctioning "baby smashing"?

Originally posted by Traveller

But surely whatever violence we can do, God can do much better. For example, the violence of an earthquake is something we all cannot match. Or just imagine the violence of a huge rock from outer space hitting earth.

Originally posted by Non Believer

What's your point? Natural disasters affect pious people and impious people equally.
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Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
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bullet Posted: 21 November 2017 at 12:09am
The murder of an innocent human being can never be justified, NB

The Qur'an says so very clearly:

"... whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely..."
(5:32)

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bullet Posted: 21 November 2017 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

The murder of an innocent human being can never be justified, NB The Qur'an says so very clearly:"... whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it
is as if he had saved mankind entirely
..." (5:32)
The Qur'an says so very clearly:
"33:26 And He brought down those who supported them among the People of the Scripture from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts [so that] a party you killed, and you took captive a party. "
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bullet Posted: 21 November 2017 at 11:50am
I thought Al-Cordoby's offered quote was directed at Jews, not at Muslims.

Edited by Doris - 21 November 2017 at 11:51am
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bullet Posted: 21 November 2017 at 12:13pm
05.032

YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land

005.033

YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
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bullet Posted: 21 November 2017 at 2:35pm
The same rule applies to both Jews and Muslims
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bullet Posted: 21 November 2017 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by Doris

I thought Al-Cordoby's offered quote was directed at Jews, not at Muslims.
Standard removal of context... ignoring the first phrase of the verse and the following verse.

This is a 20th Century perspective of the background for Surah 5, from quran.com
Originally posted by quran.com/5 (Source: Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Quran)

This Surah was revealed to suit the requirements of the changed conditions which were now different from those prevailing at the time of the revelation of Al-i-'Imran and An- Nisa. Then the shock of the set-back at Uhd had made the very surroundings of Al-Madinah dangerous for the Muslims, but now Islam had become an invulnerable power and the Islamic State had extended to Najd on the east, to the Red Sea on the west, to Syria on the north and to Makkah on the south. This set-back which the Muslims had suffered at Uhd had not broken their determination. It had rather spurred them to action. As a result of their continuous struggle and unparalleled sacrifices, the power of. the surrounding clans, within a radius of 200 miles or so, had been broken. The Jewish menace which was always threatening Al-Madinah had been totally removed and the Jews in the other parts of Hijaz had-become tributaries of the State of Al-Madinah. The last effort of the Quraish to suppress Islam had been thwarted in the Battle of the Ditch. After this, it had become quite obvious to the Arabs that no power could suppress the Islamic movement. Now Islam was not merely a creed which ruled over the minds and hearts of the people but had also become a State which dominated over every aspect of the life of the people who lived within its boundaries. This had enabled the Muslims to live their lives without let or hindrance, in accordance with their beliefs.

Another development had also taken place during this period. The Muslim civilization had developed in accordance with the principles of Islam and the Islamic viewpoint. This civilization was quite distinct from all other civilizations in all its' details, and distinguished the Muslims clearly from the non Muslims in their moral, social and cultural behavior. Mosques had been built in all territories, prayer had been established and' Imam (leader) for every habitation and clan had been appointed. The Islamic civil and criminal laws had been formulated in detail and were being enforced through the Islamic courts. New and reformed ways of trade and commerce had taken the place of the old ones. The Islamic laws of marriage and divorce, of the segregation of the sexes, of the punishment for adultery and calumny and the like had cast the social life of the Muslims in a special mold. Their social behavior, their conversation, their dress, their very mode of living, their culture etc., had taken a definite shape of its own. As a result of all these changes, the non-Muslims could not expect that the Muslims would ever return to their former fold.
The bolded text is the event that I'm asking about referred to in 33:26

Do Muslims really expect non-Muslims to see this as a reciprocal relationship when Muslims clearly do not see it as any way a reciprocal relationship?

I have some bad news for Muslims: we do not live in an Islamocentric universe.

I also find it bizarre that a scholar would admit that the Qur'an needed revision "to suit the requirements of the changed conditions which were now different from those prevailing at the time of the revelation of Al-i-'Imran and An- Nisa." How convenient that "Allah" would reveal the perfect messages to support Muhammad's changing agenda, excluding "the Children of Israel" from his beneficence.

Every time I look at Surah Al-Ma'idah I become enraged. Is it really so difficult for a Muslim to try to view this text through the lens of a non-Muslim and acknowledge that there is a problem with it?

"Religion" cannot be used as an excuse for publishing such divisive content. What kind of religion is it that proclaims the divisiveness of a god?

Do we want people who believe in a God who is said to have revealed "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people." (5:51) These are timeless words of God? Seriously?

But still... I await comments on 33:26 rather than a pivot.
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bullet Posted: 21 November 2017 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

The same rule applies to both Jews and Muslims


Can you supply us with a similar Quranic text that is not so specifically aimed at a non-Muslim society? Preferably one directed at Muslims.
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bullet Posted: 22 November 2017 at 12:15am
The Ten Commandments

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bullet Posted: 22 November 2017 at 7:49am
Originally posted by Non Believer



But still... I await comments on 33:26 rather than a pivot.


33:26 states what Allah did to them, brought them out of a place they thought would be enough to keep them safe.

The verse is talking about a specific event but yes, it's timeless because it serves as a warning that we cannot escape God's judgment. None of us can.






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bullet Posted: 22 November 2017 at 7:57am
Originally posted by Doris

I thought Al-Cordoby's offered quote was directed at Jews, not at Muslims.


The validity of that moral truth was first enunciated to the children of Israel, as the verse states.

It is against a universal moral truth, to kill innocents.

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bullet Posted: 23 November 2017 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Non Believer



But still... I await comments on 33:26 rather than a pivot.


33:26 states what Allah did to them, brought them out of a place they thought would be enough to keep them safe.

The verse is talking about a specific event but yes, it's timeless because it serves as a warning that we cannot escape God's judgment. None of us can.
You may speak this way about God's judgment in the hereafter, if you choose. However, you may not speak of judgments executed by men in this same way. It was Muhammad ibn Abdullah, a man, who commanded the slaughter of these innocents. It serves no useful purpose for Muslims to continue to deny the history that they themselves have recorded for themselves. This is not some outside slander. What he did may not have been unusual or exceptional in his day, however, since Muslims wish to model their political ethics on this man, what he did then is relevant today.

That is my point. Do you understand?
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bullet Posted: 23 November 2017 at 3:34pm
"It is against a universal moral truth, to kill innocents."

Certainly there should be such a moral truth. I think we all wish there were such a truth.

So why was the comment directed specifically at the "children of Islam"?

Why select them from the 'universe'?
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bullet Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:20am
Originally posted by Doris

"It is against a universal moral truth, to kill innocents."

Certainly there should be such a moral truth. I think we all wish there were such a truth.

So why was the comment directed specifically at the "children of Islam"?

Why select them from the 'universe'?


That verse is a reminder of the enunciation of that moral law to the children of Israel. There are a few of such verses that serve as reminders to them, like in 2:40 where God reminds them of the favors conferred on them.





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