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Traveller  
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bullet Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:24am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Non Believer



But still... I await comments on 33:26 rather than a pivot.


33:26 states what Allah did to them, brought them out of a place they thought would be enough to keep them safe.

The verse is talking about a specific event but yes, it's timeless because it serves as a warning that we cannot escape God's judgment. None of us can.
You may speak this way about God's judgment in the hereafter, if you choose. However, you may not speak of judgments executed by men in this same way. It was Muhammad ibn Abdullah, a man, who commanded the slaughter of these innocents. It serves no useful purpose for Muslims to continue to deny the history that they themselves have recorded for themselves. This is not some outside slander. What he did may not have been unusual or exceptional in his day, however, since Muslims wish to model their political ethics on this man, what he did then is relevant today.

That is my point. Do you understand?


Yes I do.

In this case, we can discuss that incident as God's judgment because it is related to us as such in the Quran, being a judgment from God.

About the reasons why God brought down such judgment on them, we have to go back to the Bible to understand the full picture.



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bullet Posted: 24 November 2017 at 3:39pm
So you will argue that a man who claims to be a prophet of God should not be judged according to the laws which he claims were received from this same God... He may kill innocent people if he believes that it is what this God is instructing him to do, in this case, killing people who have a covenant with the very same God? It makes no sense to me that anyone would think this way. What kind of world do you imagine if everyone believed that the Almighty Creator was giving them preference over others of his creation? Are we not all equal in the sight of your God? Does it not seem too convenient to say that this God would sacrifice part of his creation to advance the political agenda of a man?

Men are judged on earth according to our laws; there is no other way to do this. No man can claim an exemption by claiming he has a special relationship with a God.
Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.
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Traveller  
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bullet Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

So you will argue that a man who claims to be a prophet of God should not be judged according to the laws which he claims were received from this same God... He may kill innocent people if he believes that it is what this God is instructing him to do, in this case, killing people who have a covenant with the very same God? It makes no sense to me that anyone would think this way. What kind of world do you imagine if everyone believed that the Almighty Creator was giving them preference over others of his creation? Are we not all equal in the sight of your God? Does it not seem too convenient to say that this God would sacrifice part of his creation to advance the political agenda of a man?

Men are judged on earth according to our laws; there is no other way to do this. No man can claim an exemption by claiming he has a special relationship with a God.


Of course NB.

You can pass judgment on the prophet about that incident but you know you don't have enough facts to do that.





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bullet Posted: 25 November 2017 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Traveller

You can pass judgment on the prophet about that incident but you know you don't have enough facts to do that.
Which facts are we not agreeing on?
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bullet Posted: 25 November 2017 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Traveller

You can pass judgment on the prophet about that incident but you know you don't have enough facts to do that.
Which facts are we not agreeing on?


Do you know what was spoken during the trial?
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Doris  
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bullet Posted: 25 November 2017 at 11:13pm
I'm beginning to think that many people, not all of them Muslims, have such poor problem solving skills that they can think of no recourse but murder.

Ain't the human race just great?
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bullet Posted: 26 November 2017 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Doris

I'm beginning to think that many people, not all of them Muslims, have such poor problem solving skills that they can think of no recourse but murder.

Ain't the human race just great?


The best among mankind will shine.
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Doris  
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bullet Posted: 26 November 2017 at 10:32am


"The best among mankind will shine."

The worst among mankind shine brightly themselves.We do not forget them.

I'm curious. What is the 'trial' of which you speak?
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bullet Posted: 26 November 2017 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Doris



"The best among mankind will shine."

The worst among mankind shine brightly themselves.We do not forget them.

I'm curious. What is the 'trial' of which you speak?


There was a trial.

And no, the worst among mankind will be in the pits of hell. That is our belief, of course.
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Doris  
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bullet Posted: 26 November 2017 at 12:55pm
I've just read two accounts of the events and saw no mention of anything I would consider a trial. If you mean a man deciding all the male captives should be beheaded and all the others enslaved, that's not a trial. It's a decree.

There were no 'war crimes' in those days, I guess, but if there had been, the beheaders would have eventually been on trial for "crimes against humanity" or its 7th century equivalent.
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bullet Posted: 26 November 2017 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Doris

I've just read two accounts of the events and saw no mention of anything I would consider a trial. If you mean a man deciding all the male captives should be beheaded and all the others enslaved, that's not a trial. It's a decree.

There were no 'war crimes' in those days, I guess, but if there had been, the beheaders would have eventually been on trial for "crimes against humanity" or its 7th century equivalent.


If you're thinking Petrocelli kinda trial, then no. But nonetheless, they were found guilty by their own ally.

Perhaps, if they had chosen the prophet as the judge instead, they would have been spared because the prophet was known to be merciful.

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Doris  
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bullet Posted: 26 November 2017 at 4:46pm
If he was so merciful, why did he delegate the decision of punishment to a person he was certain would call for execution? Why didn't he show his 'mercy' in a direct fashion?

Edited by Doris - 26 November 2017 at 4:46pm
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bullet Posted: 26 November 2017 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Doris

If he was so merciful, why did he delegate the decision of punishment to a person he was certain would call for execution? Why didn't he show his 'mercy' in a direct fashion?


It was the children of Israel's decision. They were given the option.

And the children of Israel also requested to be judged according to the Torah, which calls for a death penalty for such crime.

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bullet Posted: 27 November 2017 at 2:08pm
Traveller, it surprises me that your posts don't show how much you must feel conflicted over this incident. It would be so much better for you if you could admit that you are very troubled by it. Your explanations are exceedingly weak, and I'm sure you know this.

The "Biblical Law" argument fails for many reasons and I don't need to rehash them here. To ignore these failings is a deliberate blindness that a Muslim should feel shame for.

The "not Muhammad's decision" argument likewise is a massive failure.

The "must have been guilty of something but we don't know what" is a horrible position to take.

Think about this... a pubescent boy was sentenced based on whether or not he was deemed to have reached puberty. This means that a medical examination was used to ascertain his guilt. This is the just and merciful way of Muhammad ibn Abdullah whose decisions you are not able to question?

Your faith ought to be in crisis over this incident. I was hoping that the incident was from an unreliable source. However, now that I know that Muhammad in the Qur'an itself (33:27) boasts of their "divine" victory and how the Muslims enriched themselves, I have no optimism that Muslims will ever be honest about it.

My definition of a Muslim extremist is one who insists that everything in the Qur'an is truth and that men are obligated to live their lives according to the examples in it. Should I consider you to be an extremist?

Edited by Non Believer - 27 November 2017 at 3:44pm
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