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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Topic: Where Does the Bible Agree with the Quran?
    Posted: 14 December 2017 at 3:59am

It might be a surprise to many that the Bible and the Quran have a lot in common.

But it shouldn’t be a surprise since it is a basic belief in Islam that God sent prophets and messengers throughout human history. Some of these prophets (peace and blessings upon them all) were given revelation from God through the Angel Gabriel.

It is an article of faith for a Muslim to believe that the Torah was revealed to Moses, the Psalms were revealed to David, the Bible was revealed to Jesus, and that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad.

Each of these revelations were sent from God, the Creator, with the same message to human kind. God sent revelation, and the people after each prophet had died, changed in the message of God. Then God sent another prophet to correct the distortion made by man until the last revelation that God promised to protect– The Quran.

This is why Muslims respect the Bible. There are many beliefs that Muslims hold to be the foundation of their faith that can be found in the Bible.

Belief in God’s Oneness

The Quran declares without any doubt that God is One, without partner...

http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/understanding-islam/where-does-the-bible-agree-with-the-quran/


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2017 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Each of these revelations were sent from God, the Creator, with the same message to human kind. God sent revelation, and the people after each prophet had died, changed in the message of God. Then God sent another prophet to correct the distortion made by man until the last revelation that God promised to protect– The Quran.



One must ask, if the above is true, that why, neither God, nor the people themselves who believed, repeatedly allowed others - mere men themselves to determine the Almighty's "eternal words" by deceit. I mean once or twice maybe even 3 times.. people would loose faith, because people do not like to be manipulated by false authority God therefore who out of patience t the very most would have allowed such transaction to even happen if what you say i true but after that.. i would expect in the interest of His most faithful - who would vastly outnumber the corrupt few.. that God would indeed preserve His Eternal Word(given that eternal actually means something here) but no.. according to what your told to believe..were talking hundreds of times God's word have been 'supplanted' and yet still God is supposed to abide till 700AD and not set and eternal example at the time of the given offence, and offence of incalculable depth in what you would determine as shirk of unimaginable offence .. think about that. , and no-one is EVER brought to account in recorded history ? God does NOTHING until Ad 700 according to what you believe. And gives mankind a 'quick-read' edit of His interaction with humanity. To me however It comes over as God sidelining to the trash many leading figures who are our spiritual ancestors in faith. Personally i do not believe God would ever do that. Because they are all patterns of which God has displayed his many approaches to u, and what we learn from each of His interaction through time with us the way by which we can ONLY know Him.
The people themselves why did they remain faithful and adherent to Temple authority if there was an inkling that there deception if not by what they witnessed as events unfolded in the supernatural before their eyes.?

Taking those many (pretty logical) why's to one side, if what you say i true, why should i therefore believe the same has not also happened to the Quran ?

Has it been (now) through the Providence of God ?


Lets see how vague the response will be.


Edited by Damo808 - 14 December 2017 at 12:23pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2017 at 1:02pm
Hello Damo, and thank you for your questions.

Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Each of these revelations were sent from God, the Creator, with the same message to human kind. God sent revelation, and the people after each prophet had died, changed in the message of God. Then God sent another prophet to correct the distortion made by man until the last revelation that God promised to protect– The Quran.



One must ask, if the above is true, that why, neither God, nor the people themselves who believed, repeatedly allowed others - mere men themselves to determine the Almighty's "eternal words" by deceit. I mean once or twice maybe even 3 times.. people would loose faith, because people do not like to be manipulated by false authority God therefore who out of patience t the very most would have allowed such transaction to even happen if what you say i true but after that.. i would expect in the interest of His most faithful - who would vastly outnumber the corrupt few.. that God would indeed preserve His Eternal Word(given that eternal actually means something here) but no.. according to what your told to believe..were talking hundreds of times God's word have been 'supplanted' and yet still God is supposed to abide till 700AD and not set and eternal example at the time of the given offence, and offence of incalculable depth in what you would determine as shirk of unimaginable offence .. think about that. , and no-one is EVER brought to account in recorded history ?


You ask why did people allow "others - mere men themselves to determine the Almighty's "eternal words" by deceit."

a- In some cases, wars broke out between different sects, and those who had the upper hand were able to impose their views, and force people to follow them.

If they didn't comply, they were "ex-communicated", and persecuted.

b- Another reason is the monopoly of scriptures in past nations by an elite clergy.

Only they had access to scriptures, and only they had the authority to interpret the scripture, so if they wanted to hide certain texts, who could oppose them?

Originally posted by Damo808


God does NOTHING until Ad 700 according to what you believe. And gives mankind a 'quick-read' edit of His interaction with humanity.


That is not the case.

Each time the scripture is distorted by man, God in fact sends subsequent prophets to correct these distortions.

You ask why is the Qur'an a different case, and the answer is being God's final revelation to mankind, He himself preserved it from man-made changes.

How?

By making it accessible to all people from day 1.

The followers of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, memorized the Qur'an and knew it by heart.

Even today, children as young as 10 or even 8 years old, memorize the Qur'an by heart, and this oral tradition is always a safeguard to review written copies of the Qur'an to ensure they are error-free.

This made it impossible for an "elite" Muslim clergy to monopolize the sacred text, and therefore they could not make changes based on their whims and human desires for power or wealth.

Get the difference?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2017 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby


That is not the case.

Each time the scripture is distorted by man, God in fact sends subsequent prophets to correct these distortions.


Yes i realise you believe that. The question is why does God continually have to correct earlier suppressed/ corrupted scripture yet allow it to happen recurrently hundreds of times until 700 AD ?

You say God sent subsequent prophets to correct each distortion. But that's way overly simplistic. Its not like when one prophet died another was born to take his place or was of an age to take his place in the immediacy of the time as a prophet or religious teacher. People could see many generation pass between prophets appearing and dying . So again when you look more closely.. so few individual depriving the words of God to so many faithful over so many generations inbetween 'corrections'.. thats not exactly Divine Providence now is it Al ? But that is what your really saying here.

Hence why i believe the question mark over the above point makes your 1st point below a mute one.


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

You ask why did people allow "others - mere men themselves to determine the Almighty's "eternal words" by deceit."

a- In some cases, wars broke out between different sects, and those who had the upper hand were able to impose their views, and force people to follow them.

If they didn't comply, they were "ex-communicated", and persecuted.

b- Another reason is the monopoly of scriptures in past nations by an elite clergy.

Only they had access to scriptures, and only they had the authority to interpret the scripture, so if they wanted to hide certain texts, who could oppose them?



At least you have cited no evidence for what you have claimed regarding wars and monopolies. or are you going to raise Arius again and the dead end that lead to before.. ?



Edited by Damo808 - 14 December 2017 at 2:00pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Doris  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2017 at 4:17pm
Shouldn't this topic be entitled "Where does the Quran agree with the Bible"?

Chronologically, anyway.
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 4:32am
Hello Damo once again.

Hope all is well and that you don't have too much snow up in Scotland.

Here in the south it's been freezing this last week.

You said:


Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Al-Cordoby


That is not the case.

Each time the scripture is distorted by man, God in fact sends subsequent prophets to correct these distortions.


Yes i realise you believe that. The question is why does God continually have to correct earlier suppressed/ corrupted scripture yet allow it to happen recurrently hundreds of times until 700 AD ?

You say God sent subsequent prophets to correct each distortion. But that's way overly simplistic. Its not like when one prophet died another was born to take his place or was of an age to take his place in the immediacy of the time as a prophet or religious teacher. People could see many generation pass between prophets appearing and dying . So again when you look more closely.. so few individual depriving the words of God to so many faithful over so many generations inbetween 'corrections'.. thats not exactly Divine Providence now is it Al ? But that is what your really saying here.



The answer to your question on why God had to continually correct earlier suppressed/ corrupted scripture yet allow it to happen recurrently hundreds of times until 700 AD is God is the All-Wise, and He has a plan for humanity.

We may not fully understand His wisdom but we can do our best and try. So here we go:

1- The human race has gone through several phases.

The first human generation on earth, Adam and his sons and daughters, we certainly living in different conditions than we do today. Right?

The same can be said of the generation of Prophet Noah, peace be upon him, who lived for around 1,000 years.

Subsequent centuries witnessed more changing conditions, till Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, then later the Children of Israel (Prophet Jacob peace be upon him), then Jesus, peace be upon him, then God's final messenger, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Now remember that God's religion has 2 main components:

a- Belief & Articles of Faith

b- Divine Law

The first component always remained unchanged and was shared in all the divine messages conveyed by all of God's prophets: the Belief in the One and Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

The articles of faith were also unchanged: belief in the Day of Judgment, belief in angels, .... etc.

What did evolve from one phase to the next was the Divine Law
, so in this second component of God's Guidance to humanity, there were some changes commanded by God through His subsequent prophets to cater to the changing conditions of human beings living on earth.

Example: The sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were allowed to marry between them (with certain rules), as there was no alternatives at the time. This permission was later abrogated when no longer needed and people we encouraged to marry non-relatives.

So what is the logical conclusion here?

Earlier divine revelations were partially abrogated by subsequent divine revelations, and God allowed man-made changes to take place in His earlier revelations after the corresponding prophets had passed away as they were not to be His final guidance for humanity.

When He did reveal His final Guidance, the Qur'an,
by His Knowledge and Wisdom, His plan was for it to remain intact and unchanged so it would remain accessible in its original form to all generations till the end.
 
Making the text of the Qur'an accessible to all (and not secretly kept by an elite clergy) was an important key for this to happen, as millions and millions of Muslims of all ages around the world memorized and continue to memorize the Qur'an by heart, and are able to review and double-check any printed copy of the Qur'an for accuracy.

As mentioned yesterday, one of the miracles of the preservation of the Qur'an is that children as young as 8 years old, (and in some cases even younger), memorize the whole 600 page text by heart.

The result is that God's final revelation remained intact till today, and will remain for all generations to come.
 
2- As for your question about time gaps between Prophets, the man-made changes in earlier scriptures were not made the following day one of God's Prophets passed away.

In some cases it was preserved intact by the Prophet's followers 1 or 2 or more generations.

Also, there is a Divine rule that people are not held accountable for what they don't know, so if someone is born in an era where there is no access to God's revelation, he or she would not be held accountable.

This case however is an exception to the general rule....

Does that help answer your question?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 4:51am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Each of these revelations were sent from God, the Creator, with the same message to human kind. God sent revelation, and the people after each prophet had died, changed in the message of God. Then God sent another prophet to correct the distortion made by man until the last revelation that God promised to protect– The Quran.


There are at least two stories coming out of the Jewish history that collaborate with what Al-Cordoby said there. The most extreme imo would be the event during the time of Prophet Moses. Forty days was all it took for the people to change the message.

Peace be upon Prophet Moses, a messenger of Allah.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 9:32am
So all these abrogations, backtracking, and obfuscations are the result of God's intentions?

As we say, "What a strange way to run a railroad."

There must be a way for a deity who speaks to the whole human race be a little more direct.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Doris

So all these abrogations, backtracking, and obfuscations are the result of God's intentions?

As we say, "What a strange way to run a railroad."

There must be a way for a deity who speaks to the whole human race be a little more direct.


I see it differently.

I see it as progression, like in school, going through the levels.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Each of these revelations were sent from God, the Creator, with the same message to human kind. God sent revelation, and the people after each prophet had died, changed in the message of God. Then God sent another prophet to correct the distortion made by man until the last revelation that God promised to protect– The Quran.


There are at least two stories coming out of the Jewish history that collaborate with what Al-Cordoby said there. The most extreme imo would be the event during the time of Prophet Moses. Forty days was all it took for the people to change the message.

Peace be upon Prophet Moses, a messenger of Allah.


Ummm, exactly which people changed the message Moses got ... how, when, what and by whom?   I guess you are an expert on Torah? 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Hello Damo once again.

Hope all is well and that you don't have too much snow up in Scotland.

Here in the south it's been freezing this last week



-8c But as of yet no snow but driving is like figure skating with with auto's just now. You in the UK ?



Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

The answer to your question on why God had to continually correct earlier suppressed/ corrupted scripture yet
allow it to happen recurrently hundreds of times until 700 AD is God is the All-Wise, and He has a plan for humanity.We may not fully understand His wisdom but we can do our best and try. So here we go:1- The human race has gone through several phases.The first human generation on earth, Adam and his sons and daughters, we certainly living in different conditions than we do today. Right?The same can be said of the generation of Prophet Noah, peace be upon him, who lived for around 1,000 years.Subsequent centuries witnessed more changing conditions, till Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, then later the Children of Israel (Prophet Jacob peace be upon him), then Jesus, peace be upon him, then God's final messenger, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.


Now remember that God's religion has 2 main components: a- Belief & Articles of Faithb- Divine LawThe first component always remained unchanged and was shared in all the divine messages conveyed by all of God's prophets: the Belief in the One and Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the universe.The articles of faith were also unchanged: belief in the Day of Judgment, belief in angels, .... etc.What did evolve from one phase to the next was the Divine Law, so in this second component of God's Guidance to humanity, there were some changes commanded by God through His subsequent prophets to cater to the changing conditions of human beings living on earth.Example: The sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were allowed to marry between them (with certain rules), as there was no alternatives at the time. This permission was later abrogated when no longer needed and people we encouraged to marry non-relatives.So what is the logical conclusion here?Earlier divine revelations were partially abrogated by subsequent divine revelations, and God allowed man-made changes to take place in His earlier revelations after the corresponding prophets had passed away as they were not to be His final guidance for humanity.

When He did reveal His final Guidance, the Qur'an,
by His Knowledge and Wisdom, His plan was for it to remain intact and unchanged so it would remain accessible in its original form to all generations till the end. Making the text of the Qur'an accessible to all (and not secretly kept by an elite clergy) was an important key for this to happen, as millions and millions of Muslims of all ages around the world memorized and continue to memorize the Qur'an by heart, and are able to review and double-check any printed copy of the Qur'an for accuracy.As mentioned yesterday, one of the miracles of the preservation of the Qur'an is that children as young as 8 years old, (and in some cases even younger), memorize the whole 600 page text by heart.The result is that God's final revelation remained intact till today, and will remain for all generations to come.  2- As for your question about time gaps between Prophets, the man-made changes in earlier scriptures were not made the following day one of God's Prophets passed away.In some cases it was preserved intact by the Prophet's followers 1 or 2 or more generations.Also, there is a Divine rule that people are not held accountable for what they don't know, so if someone is born in an era where there is no access to God's revelation, he or she would not be held accountable.This case however is an exception to the general rule....Does that help answer your question?




All you've really said at the opening above in regards to
monotheistic history Al is a an affirmation of the obvious. In that yes of course revelation was given throughout the ages as God necessitated the spiritual development of Israel over time to a consciousness of mortal sin through the law and ultimately Redemption.. We may object to how we each interpret that passage of time came about but no Christian would disagree that you see such progression throughout the Bible. But you've not in any place here answered my question at all. You've just repeated your belief.

Where was the beginning of corruption in this picture your showing ? Let say one prophet dies ok.. So over time God sees new guidance is required for His chosen but God does not rebuke and bring shame on the living or the deceased select unbelieving few for straying the majority of believing people with false teaching. It just doesn't happen. You have God allowing the matter to recur over and over and over, without redress for the spiritual stability for the yet unborn majority who will be under a yoke of lies after this prophet is dead and before the next arrives. That to me is spiritual damnation God allows for or rather you allow for God to allow for.

We have the assurance of Jesus Himself that the Temple authorities were dispensing sound teaching when he says:
"“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Mat23:3

It means that from the Chair or Moses infallible teaching was observed up until His Coming. Infallible teaching does not come from corrupt texts.

In my view you have two different God's you have in your eyes a weak God (of the Hebrews) who could not protect the spiritual well being of His people and allowed it to be subdued by the conniving of the powerful yet mortal few. And the islamic Allah who has not allowed the same to occur within islamic tradition . Oral tradition did not manifest with islam . Oral tradition was as much a part of Judaic/Christian history as it was with Islam.

So again i have to ask the logical question of why would God waste His time sending someone to people who would only be allowed to heed it but for a few generations before it was banished for something different supplanted by the powerful few. ? There is a pointlessness to this situation your presenting and by it your portraying God as being benign and useless in this scenario unable/unwilling to guide.


Edited by Damo808 - 15 December 2017 at 8:42pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by Corinna

Ummm, exactly which people changed the message Moses got ... how, when, what and by whom?   I guess you are an expert on Torah? 


Not on the Torah, I am not.

The message, don't worship any but God. After being away for just 40 days, he came back to see his people worshipping the golden calf.

It's in the Quran.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 9:18pm
"The human race has gone through several phases."

This suggests that now that humanity has been given the 'final word' these changes have stopped.

I, for one, am not entirely satisfied in the stage that humanity-- or whoever is in charge-- has settled for.

How can the present world be the one that is the culmination of all those instructions passed to the deity by the prophets?

Or, can this possibly be 'perfection'?


I do hope not.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Doris

"The human race has gone through several phases."

This suggests that now that humanity has been given the 'final word' these changes have stopped.

I, for one, am not entirely satisfied in the stage that humanity-- or whoever is in charge-- has settled for.

How can the present world be the one that is the culmination of all those instructions passed to the deity by the prophets?

Or, can this possibly be 'perfection'?


I do hope not.



Not changes but progression.

I never stop wondering why this and why that. In the end, I just wonder at God's awesome creation, the epic story of mankind. The irony or whatever you want to call it is that the universe is so huge yet the stage for this epic story is only here, on earth.

And we are told that there will be a closing chapter, and it looks like we are living it now, the closing chapter.

I'm gonna order the full video of this story of mankind and watch it on my kickass giant screen when I'm in paradise. Game of thrones is nothing, I tell you.
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