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Message Icon Topic: Where Does the Bible Agree with the Quran? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 8:53pm
That last part is just me trying to be funny and probably failing.

Glory be to Allah, above anything we may say. Truly, we know nothing.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

Ummm, exactly which people changed the message Moses got ... how, when, what and by whom?   I guess you are an expert on Torah? 


Not on the Torah, I am not.

The message, don't worship any but God. After being away for just 40 days, he came back to see his people worshipping the golden calf.

It's in the Quran.


One more time:  Tanakh and Torah were our history as it progressed and changed for centuries.   Judaism allows for changes as we see throughout Talmud as society progresses over time, mankind must change also.  That is adhering to what G-d said and meant for humanity.  We live, learn and grow.  Very simply put but hard for some to do. 
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2017 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by Corinna

One more time:  Tanakh and Torah were our history as it progressed and changed for centuries.   Judaism allows for changes as we see throughout Talmud as society progresses over time, mankind must change also.  That is adhering to what G-d said and meant for humanity.  We live, learn and grow.  Very simply put but hard for some to do. 


Okay. Society progress for sure.

But worshipping none but God is still the tenet in Judaism and it won't change, I'm sure.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2017 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

One more time:  Tanakh and Torah were our history as it progressed and changed for centuries.   Judaism allows for changes as we see throughout Talmud as society progresses over time, mankind must change also.  That is adhering to what G-d said and meant for humanity.  We live, learn and grow.  Very simply put but hard for some to do. 


Okay. Society progress for sure.

But worshipping none but God is still the tenet in Judaism and it won't change, I'm sure.


I wasn't talking specifically about religion.  Our history is much more than religion as told in Tanakh and Torah with laws discussed in Talmud.

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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2017 at 4:19am
Originally posted by Damo808

why would God waste His time sending someone to people who would only be allowed to heed it but for a few generations before it was banished for something different supplanted by the powerful few. ? 


The answer to your question is that God never intended these messages to last, since they were for a particular people at a particular time in their history


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2017 at 5:01am
This is a quote from an article by a UK ex-Catholic priest, Idris Tawfiq, titled "The Christmas Message of Jesus":

QUOTE

Allah, has spoken to His creation down through the centuries through prophets.

Some of these prophets had books revealed to them.

Prophet Moses, for example, had the Torah revealed to him, just as Prophet Jesus had a message revealed to him known as the Injeel.

Muslims believe that neither of these books now exist in the form in which they were originally revealed because they have been altered, either deliberately or accidentally, over time.

Allah never intended these messages to last, since they were for a particular people at a particular time in their history.

The Quran revealed to Muhammad, however, was intended for all people and for all time.

It is the fullness of revelation, affirming all that is correct of what had gone before and correcting all that had become unclear about previous revelation....

UNQUOTE

http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/understanding-islam/christmas-message-jesus/


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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2017 at 5:55am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

The answer to your question is that God never intended these messages to last, since they were for a particular people at a particular time in their history


Al, We've both agreed that to be the case. But you neglect to address that what you insinuate.You smooth over it every time. That is that when one prophet comes, preaching the message God intended for that time and then dies one thing he didn't do (much the same as the prophet before him and before that) was address what had been corrupted before, why it happened and who was responsible. Because due to that deceit many had lived and died believing lies produced by men. In your version of history it sees God allow such deceit to continue even after the present prophet dies without any preservation of His message to many generations who will be spiritually blighted. You deny therefore that God protected these people from a few corrupt individuals supplanting falsehood for Divine decree and that such a crime would be punished by God. Therefore you portray God as benign, powerless to preserve His intention above the intentions of men. That i what you are essentially saying when you say the Bible was corrupted etc.


Edited by Damo808 - 17 December 2017 at 5:59am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2017 at 6:11am
Originally posted by Damo808

when one prophet comes, preaching the message God intended for that time and then dies one thing he didn't do (much the same as the prophet before him and before that) was address what had been corrupted before, why it happened and who was responsible.


The newer divine revelation God sent corrects the man-made changes, Damo, so the (what) point is clear.

The (why) issue is in most cases man's desire for worldly gains and power.

As for (who) was responsible, no doubt the elite clergy who had the monopoly of the sacred texts at that time
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2017 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby


The newer divine revelation God sent corrects the man-made changes, Damo, so the (what) point is clear.The (why) issue is in most cases man's desire for worldly gains and power.As for (who) was responsible, no doubt the elite clergy who had the monopoly of the sacred texts at that time



So there is no logic to to what your saying... God's intention as your put it are continually nullified by a very few men to the detriment of the faithful majority over untold generations and God is powerless or unwilling to do anything about it for thousands of years. He allows the aspirations driven by the greed of the few to over-ride the spiritual guidance of the majority repeatedly and you say he comes back and corrects.. can't you see in your scenario God is always playing catch-up with the crooks in your story, and the crooks are always getting away with what they do ? The 'why' to my question still therefore has not been addressed. And yet the questioned hasn't changed. The 'who' you'e mentioned are who exactly ?..The 'elite clergy' ? well that's stating the obvious in your scenario, because who else could do such a thing right ?
But you don't cite who, when or even how.. Its just more vague non answers to support stories with no historical root.

                                         




Edited by Damo808 - 17 December 2017 at 1:40pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Doris  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2017 at 4:25pm
"
The answer to your question is that God never intended these messages to last, since they were for a particular people at a particular time in their history."

This is what I have trouble understanding. If Mohammed is the last prophet, are we to understand that the present world is the final product? This is what the deity planned as the culmination of human achievement?

Scary and depressing.

Can we think that the messages passed to Mohammed were never intended to last, that they were for a particular people--the Arabs-- at a particular time in their history?

That would make much more sense to me.

Edited by Doris - 17 December 2017 at 4:28pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2017 at 6:08pm
In religious belief, a prophet is an individual who has been contacted by a divine being in order to speak on the entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humanity by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people.

The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy, which transports—at least in Judaism—a message beyond mere pagan soothsaying, augury, divination, or forecasting, and, most prominently in the neviim of the Tanakh, often comprises issues of social justice.  Ta daaaa!! 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2017 at 2:00am
Originally posted by Damo808



So there is no logic to to what your saying... God's intention as your put it are continually nullified by a very few men to the detriment of the faithful majority over untold generations and God is powerless or unwilling to do anything about it for thousands of years. He allows the aspirations driven by the greed of the few to over-ride the spiritual guidance of the majority repeatedly and you say he comes back and corrects.. can't you see in your scenario God is always playing catch-up with the crooks in your story, and the crooks are always getting away with what they do ?
                                         


There are several other dimensions you are not taking into account, Damo.

One of them is free will.

God gave mankind free will, and this means people have a choice of doing good or doing bad.

If some "employees" in a software company choose to delete parts of the user manual draft, they may be able do that in version 1 or version 2 or the draft manual, but these changes are corrected in the following versions, and these criminals will get their due punishment (if not in this world then in the Hereafter).

When the final manual was released, it was error free and kept intact from any man-made changes...



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2017 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

There are several other dimensions you are not taking into account, Damo.

One of them is free will.

God gave mankind free will, and this means people have a choice of doing good or doing bad.

If some "employees" in a software company choose to delete parts of the user manual draft, they may be able do that in version 1 or version 2 or the draft manual, but these changes are corrected in the following versions, and these criminals will get their due punishment (if not in this world then in the Hereafter).

When the final manual was released, it was error free and kept intact from any man-made changes...




The problem i have with that i that is when the flawed copy was in circulation many people had their business and personal data compromised and payed dearly due to online fraudsters. The final copy could not undo the damage the flawed ones set in place and which resulted in businesses crashing and personal data being leaked.

So were still left with the same problem of God/software companies playing catch-up, to the detriment of the majority. You seem to continually miss this point.

One man's freewill cannot have the capacity to overrule the eternal world of God, but that is what your saying.

Edited by Damo808 - 18 December 2017 at 11:02am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2017 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Damo808


One man's freewill cannot have the capacity to overrule the eternal world of God, but that is what your saying.


Did the same not happen to Adam?

By misusing his free will he sinned, did he not?

In a previous post you said:

Originally posted by Damo808

due to that deceit many had lived and died believing lies produced by men. In your version of history it sees God allow such deceit to continue even after the present prophet dies without any preservation of His message to many generations who will be spiritually blighted. You deny therefore that God protected these people from a few corrupt individuals supplanting falsehood for Divine decree and that such a crime would be punished by God. Therefore you portray God as benign, powerless to preserve His intention above the intentions of men. That i what you are essentially saying when you say the Bible was corrupted etc.


No, this is your incorrect conclusion, Damo.

There are other important issues you need to keep in mind:

1- First, freedom of faith. This freedom from God for people to believe in what they find most convincing with the knowledge and advanced intellect He gave us is what differentiates us from angels.

2- Free-will. God gave us a free will to do what He commanded, and that means that people also have free will to do what He prohibited.

So those responsible for changing parts of the scriptures did it by their free will, while other people around at the time were unable to stop them.

God allowed this to happen with earlier scriptures, but did not command them to do those crimes. They did it by their own free will.

Does that mean that God is "benign" as you suggested?

Of course not. He allowed them to commit these crimes with some of the earlier divine scriptures, but not with His final revelation.

And even in those days, there were still always those who stood up for the truth despite persecution, so the truth was still there, despite the inquisitions and persecutions, and those who searched for the Truth could eventually find it.

3- Finally, God does not hold people accountable for knowledge and true guidance which did not reach them.

So the people who were misguided by the elite clergy over the centuries and had no access to the Truth, will not be held accountable.

God is Just and He is the Most Merciful.


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