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Message Icon Topic: Where Does the Bible Agree with the Quran? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2017 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by Damo808

One man's freewill cannot have the capacity to overrule the eternal world of God, but that is what your saying.




Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Did the same not happen to Adam?

By misusing his free will he sinned, did he not?


Adam's sin did not prevent him or his offspring from knowing the intentions of God or what He expected of them


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

In a previous post you said:
Originally posted by Damo808


due to that deceit many had lived and died believing lies produced by men. In your version of history it sees God allow such deceit to continue even after the present prophet dies without any preservation of His message to many generations who will be spiritually blighted. You deny therefore that God protected these people from a few corrupt individuals supplanting falsehood for Divine decree and that such a crime would be punished by God. Therefore you portray God as benign, powerless to preserve His intention above the intentions of men. That i what you are essentially saying when you say the Bible was corrupted etc.



Originally posted by Al-Cordoby


No, this is your incorrect conclusion, Damo.

There are other important issues you need to keep in mind:

1- First, freedom of faith. This freedom from God for people to believe in what they find most convincing with the knowledge and advanced intellect He gave us is what differentiates us from angels.


Freedom of faith is something i don't believe islam grants those born within its ranks, but that's a separate issue. Freedom of faith however is worth nothing if Divine Truth as you say has been supplanted for everyone with human invention.

Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

2- Free-will. God gave us a free will to do what He commanded, and that means that people also have free will to do what He prohibited.

So those responsible for changing parts of the scriptures did it by their free will, while other people around at the time were unable to stop them.


Who was responsible ? who was unable to stop who ?
You name no-one still and were two pages in already. And the whole point is that it shouldn't be down to men to protect God's message for His people.

Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

God allowed this to happen with earlier scriptures, but did not command them to do those crimes. They did it by their own free will.

Does that mean that God is "benign" as you suggested?


Well yes actually. Because it essentially means that we cannot guarantee that what we are being taught about God, what we know of Him in any time in history including what islam claims has not been doctored by man to such an extent that we are all living a lie. I know you'll dispute that in regards to the Quran but i don't believe your rationale for believing otherwise stands up.



Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Of course not. He allowed them to commit these crimes with some of the earlier divine scriptures, but not with His final revelation.


Well of course you would say that as a muslim but it defy's logic to me as i said before as to why God allowed this pattern to continue thousands of years to the detriment of so many only to replace His interaction with humanity with a miniature handbook as a one size fits all.


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

And even in those days, there were still always those who stood up for the truth despite persecution, so the truth was still there, despite the inquisitions and persecutions, and those who searched for the Truth could eventually find it.


See now your speaking about inquisitions etc.Which at least gives us a timeline. So are you saying such corruption started with the inquisitions or are you going to continually be vague of that matter of who was responsible and whence it first occurred ?










Edited by Damo808 - 18 December 2017 at 4:56pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2017 at 5:18am
Originally posted by Damo808


Adam's sin did not prevent him or his offspring from knowing the intentions of God or what He expected of them


But the sin was against God's Command. Right?

The same happened with man-made changes in earlier Divine Scriptures.

What you need to understand Damo is that there is a difference between what God commands and what He allows to happen.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2017 at 6:01am


Originally posted by Damo808

Adam's sin did not prevent him or his offspring from knowing the intentions of God or what He expected of them


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

But the sin was against God's Command. Right ?



The same happened with man-made changes in earlier Divine Scriptures.

God's freewill to men does not equate to giving the very select few, free reign to deny orthodox observance to the majority. Without Divine checks and balances in this department you have liturgical chaos.


[QUOTE=Al-Cordoby]What you need to understand Damo is that there is a difference between what God commands and what He allows to happen.



Hardly a ground breaking statement of the year now is it ?
You need to understand the fallacy of your position   and how bereft you are for any support for it. I've seen none.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2017 at 6:24am
Your argument Damo is how would God allow Divine Scriptures to be changed by man.

And the response is He gave mankind free will and the earlier scriptures were abrogated by later scriptures.

Example: Jesus peace be upon him made certain restrictions to the Jews permissible. This abrogated earlier rulings.

Do you get the point?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2017 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Your argument Damo is how would God allow Divine Scriptures to be changed by man.And the response is He gave mankind free will and the earlier scriptures were abrogated by later scriptures.Example: Jesus peace be upon him made certain restrictions to the Jews permissible. This abrogated earlier rulings.Do you get the point?



The only point i realise here is that your just going on a loop. I understand what you saying, i have done since page 1. But your position ignores so much, primarily the spiritual devastation it exposes untold numbers too who in some ways have been denied a relationship with God due to a miscomprehension of Him due to to a corrupt few. You've cited no time in history for it to have first occurred, no individual in history who started the trend and no time in history has God made light of after it occuring hundreds of times. We simply have to ignore these realities in your story. Which to me is just makes me realise how far from reality this story is IMO.




Edited by Damo808 - 19 December 2017 at 1:27pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2017 at 3:56am
Hello once again

You said:


Originally posted by Damo808


You've cited no time in history for it to have first occurred, no individual in history who started the trend and no time in history has God made light of after it occuring hundreds of times. We simply have to ignore these realities in your story. Which to me is just makes me realise how far from reality this story is IMO.


The details of who did what in changing some parts of earlier divine scriptures will be known on the Day of Judgment Damo.

God does not give us names of those responsible for these crimes in the Qur'an, but mentions is many verses the crime itself of changing the scriptures and hiding certain texts.

Would you like me to quote them for you?


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2017 at 7:10am


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

The details of who did what in changing some parts of earlier divine scriptures will be known on the Day of Judgment Damo.



Well both of us could say a lot about what will transpire on that day concerning such matters. Its no different than saying 'Allah knows best'. Its hardly convinces anyone however of elements of the past that have or have not transpired.


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

God does not give us names of those responsible for these crimes in the Qur'an, but mentions is many verses the crime itself of changing the scriptures and hiding certain texts.

Would you like me to quote them for you?



The Quran does not specify anyone thats correct, it makes no difference to me as i do not hold the Quran to be legitimate in what it claims to be.
I'm sure i could quote some Mormon scripture which make similar claims. Why shouldn't i believe Joseph Smith was the final messenger with the Book of Mormon ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2017 at 7:42am
Nearly one third of the world's population are Muslims

How many Mormons are there today?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2017 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Nearly one third of the world's population are MuslimsHow many Mormons are there today?


There are more Christians than Muslims of you want to use that as an argument... become Christian.

One also must remember how Islam came about which was pretty much through violent expansionism. Not so the Mormans, Though I've no doubt if Muhammad was preaching Mormonism 1400 years ago in the same manner as he spread Islam, Mormanns would make 'nearly one third of the world's population' today likewise. So numbers don't mean everything clearly.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2017 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Damo808


There are more Christians than Muslims of you want to use that as an argument... become Christian.


I won't become Christian, Damo, for one main reason:

The Qur'an abrogates earlier divine revelations, and is the only divine Book kept intact till today.

And God commanded all of His Prophets the following command:

And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him."

[ Allah ] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"

They said, "We have acknowledged it."

He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." (3:81)

That is why Jesus, peace be upon him, invited the Jews to follow him.




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2017 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him."


Cult leaders say much the same. 'Obey me without question'
Quoting the Quran adds no weight to the discussion were having, hence why I do not quote the Bible parts that warns me of false messiah's to come and a new 'gospel' etc etc .. .
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2017 at 4:05am
It's not a matter of obey me without question, Damo

We agreed earlier in this thread that the Divine Law changed from one era of human life on earth to the next.

God's command to all of His prophets and messengers to follow His new prophet was therefore consistent, and makes perfect sense.

That's why after Abraham, the Jews were commanded to follow Prophet Moses, peace be upon them both.

And that's why when Jesus, peace be upon him, said to the Jews that he was God's messenger and prophet, the Jews also should have followed him (some did, but many didn't)...
 

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2017 at 12:44pm
Can you specify where anything in the Bible that was taught by any prophet at one stage that was later abrogated within the same life of that same prophet in their lifetime ? I can't find one instance. Yet many with Mohammed.

That seems like a correction of human error to some.


Edited by Damo808 - 21 December 2017 at 12:46pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2017 at 1:27pm
Jesus, peace be upon him, by God's command lifted some restrictions which Jews were by previous scriptures commanded to follow.

Is that correct?

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