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Message Icon Topic: Is there a reason for your belief. Post Reply Post New Topic
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 January 2018 at 6:31am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Doris

Damon, I agree that Christian scripture does not allow forced conversion.

However, Christians with military superiority have frequently justified forced conversion on the specious grounds that they are 'saving souls' from damnation. I am thinking specifically of the central American invasions by the Spanish. Somehow those souls to be saved often had resources such as gold and silver.

I'm very cynical about this, as you can probably tell. The difference in the intentions of Christianity and its actual practice through the centuries is hard to reconcile.



I believe much of what you say can be chalked up to the imperfection of human nature. When a religious teaching exorts leaders to lead justly, and they do not. That is due to the disobedience of human nature rather than the religion or religious ethos of the majority. Religion is if anything but a guide one can chose to abide to or reject which can be due to pressure, desire, malice or whatever.. That is the frailty of the human condition. Even those who are our leaders whether religious or otherwise succumb to realizations they did not forsee and err in judgment whether wilfully or mistakenly. What is important most of all is post recognition and admission of wrongdoing and ways sought to apologise and if possible amend. Religion has to be evaluated in light of what it teaches in spite of human nature.


If any religion by its teachings compels its adherents to expand multiply and conquer by force. That is quite a different matter.


Like Old Testament Judaism?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 January 2018 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Magister




Like Old Testament Judaism?[/QUOTE]

Magister, there is no  such thing as "Old Testament Judaism" unless you mean the bible text used by Christians that is a changed version of Tanakh.  That is NOT Judaism in any way, shape or form. 
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 04 January 2018 at 2:22pm
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Originally posted by Magister

   Like Old Testament Judaism?


Not really..The OT at no time issued any direction to kill, expand, enslave and conquer those who simply didn't believe in Judaism. It issued instruction on how to deal with those who intimidated and threatened the Hebrews at a given time in history for a given time in history. Barbarians who vastly outnumbered Israel and who's ways were vile in how they received prisoners.   But we've been here before of course.

Edited by Damo808 - 04 January 2018 at 2:49pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 04 January 2018 at 3:04pm
I accept that there was a time when God had to be violent in order to instill fear in order that the powerful heed from falling into wickedness by the example of what befalls the wicked by wreaking terror on those who had attained great power via great wickedness. If one believes in an all encompassing God that makes sense to me and is very rational in that context.




out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 04 January 2018 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby


Originally posted by The_Rock

I don't really believe in my faith. I am lock step with the CC mostly because I agree with the CC on most things.

The stuff I disagree with (married priests, etc) dont warrant me leaving the CC.
The underlined is a serious statement, RockWhy don't you believe in your faith?


The current connotation of belief is to accept a statement as true without question.

My unique perspective as an atheist for 20 years does not allow me to "believe" anything.

For me to believe christianity - I have to be able to substantiate all natural claims as being absolute truth.

So, I think the issue of the Trinity, or the divinity are a matter of faith, but being unverifiable and not relevant to the issue of living my daily life, I see no consequence to accepting them.

But if the matter had consequences in my daily life, then I would question its validity.

Let us take the matter of the purpose of life.

This is a fundamental idea being posited by the faith.

The christian purpose of life is simple.

A life only has purpose where it serves other people, especially those less fortunate than us.

To me this is verifiable in a number of ways.

If we find that this simple answer is untrue in anyway, then I would have to conclude that christianity is false.
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:19am
Originally posted by The_Rock


The current connotation of belief is to accept a statement as true without question.

My unique perspective as an atheist for 20 years does not allow me to "believe" anything.

For me to believe christianity - I have to be able to substantiate all natural claims as being absolute truth.

So, I think the issue of the Trinity, or the divinity are a matter of faith, but being unverifiable and not relevant to the issue of living my daily life, I see no consequence to accepting them.

But if the matter had consequences in my daily life, then I would question its validity.

Let us take the matter of the purpose of life.

This is a fundamental idea being posited by the faith.

The christian purpose of life is simple.

A life only has purpose where it serves other people, especially those less fortunate than us.

To me this is verifiable in a number of ways.

If we find that this simple answer is untrue in anyway, then I would have to conclude that christianity is false.


I understand what you are saying, Rock

In Islam we have three levels:

1- The level of being a Muslim and practicing the 5 pillars of Islam

2- The level of having Iman, being a believer, and believing in the six articles of faith

3- The level of Ihsan, which is the highest level, to worship God as if one can see Him, and knowing for sure that He sees all what we do.

Some people can practice Islam before the faith enters their heart (i.e. level 1). And with time, especially the 5 daily prayers, they move up to the second level of Iman, and if they continue on the path of self purification and increase their remembrance of God, they can reach the highest level of faith and closeness to God, which is the level of Ihsan.

In the Catholic context, which of the three levels can you identify with more?



Edited by Al-Cordoby - 05 January 2018 at 3:21am
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2018 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Damo808

]

Originally posted by Magister

   Like Old Testament Judaism?


Not really..The OT at no time issued any direction to kill, expand, enslave and conquer those who simply didn't believe in Judaism. It issued instruction on how to deal with those who intimidated and threatened the Hebrews at a given time in history for a given time in history. Barbarians who vastly outnumbered Israel and who's ways were vile in how they received prisoners.   But we've been here before of course.


The hebrews invaded someone else's land and mercilessly slaugtered man, woman and child in the name of "jehovah"..just to steal their lands and to take their young girls for concubines..try again



Edited by Magister - 13 January 2018 at 11:37am
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2018 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Damo808

]

Originally posted by Magister

   Like Old Testament Judaism?


Not really..The OT at no time issued any direction to kill, expand, enslave and conquer those who simply didn't believe in Judaism. It issued instruction on how to deal with those who intimidated and threatened the Hebrews at a given time in history for a given time in history. Barbarians who vastly outnumbered Israel and who's ways were vile in how they received prisoners.   But we've been here before of course.


The hebrews invaded someone else's land and mercilessly slaugtered man, woman and child in the name of "jehovah"..just to steal their lands and to take their young girls for concubines..try again


That is an outright lie, Magister.  One more time, son, get an education, especially in ME history.  And do not defame my people like this.  It is absolutely not true. 

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2018 at 9:39pm
Magister, you must cite something to prove your outrageous comment is true. Or, as a Muslim, do you believe that all religions have the belligerency of Islam?
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2018 at 4:09am
Originally posted by Doris

Magister, you must cite something to prove your outrageous comment is true. Or, as a Muslim, do you believe that all religions have the belligerency of Islam?


You ought to read the Bible . Ever heard of the "promised land"? Yeah, it wasn't theirs - it belonged to the Canaanites. Instead of migrating to the new land, the command was to butcher every living soul and take the land for themselves.

Some 'history buff' lol
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2018 at 7:17am
Perhaps you should read a little further back and find the reason why it why the Canaanites brought about their own defeat and removal. A people who had once witnessed God's wonders , were observers of Him as a reality, yet rejected His commandments and turned to idolatry and corruption.


You believe in the patriarchs, that they were guided by God and that Israel was their homeland ?

How from your own sources did they acquire Israel ?


out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Doris  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2018 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Doris

Magister, you must cite something to prove your outrageous comment is true. Or, as a Muslim, do you believe that all religions have the belligerency of Islam?


You ought to read the Bible . Ever heard of the "promised land"? Yeah, it wasn't theirs - it belonged to the Canaanites. Instead of migrating to the new land, the command was to butcher every living soul and take the land for themselves.

Some 'history buff' lol


Sorry, I would have responded to this unnecessary attack sooner, but I'm a very senior citizen and have been sick and in the hospital for awhile. (No sympathy, please. It comes with the territory.)

I am a history buff, not an expert, but in my travels in the past I have seldom come across a circumstance that can be viewed from only one perspective. Any such uncorroborated or unquestioned situation should, in my opinion, be viewed with skepticism, probably forever.
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Doris  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Doris Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2018 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Doris

Magister, you must cite something to prove your outrageous comment is true. Or, as a Muslim, do you believe that all religions have the belligerency of Islam?


You ought to read the Bible . Ever heard of the "promised land"? Yeah, it wasn't theirs - it belonged to the Canaanites. Instead of migrating to the new land, the command was to butcher every living soul and take the land for themselves.

Some 'history buff' lol


Sorry, I would have responded to this unnecessary attack sooner, but I'm a very senior citizen and have been sick and in the hospital for awhile. (No sympathy, please. It comes with the territory. I mention it only as an explanation.)

I am a history buff, not an expert, but in my travels in the past I have seldom come across a circumstance that can be viewed from only one perspective. Any such uncorroborated or unquestioned situation should, in my opinion, be viewed with skepticism, probably forever.
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2018 at 4:07pm
Sorry to hear you were unwell, Doris

This is to wish you a speedy recovery

Take good care of yourself, and hope you are better soon

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